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Re: [redlude97] Trad climbing, what's in a name?:
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jt512
May 5, 2011, 3:00 AM
Views: 8511
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
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redlude97 wrote: jt512 wrote: redlude97 wrote: johnwesely wrote: cracklover wrote: johnwesely wrote: cracklover wrote: johnwesely wrote: cracklover wrote: johnwesely wrote: cracklover wrote: 1 - Conceptually, the way Joe does it means that falling is the end of the ascent. You don't get to the anchors clean? Your ascent is over. GO I understand that falling negates the ascent, but does it negate his definition of traditional climbing? No, of course not. It just means that you failed to climb the route, you need to start over from the beginning. GO Would failing the route in the manner I described mean I was sport climbing? In what manner? You didn't say what the climber does after falling, and why. That's the key question for Joe. GO The climber falls then gets back on the route and finishes it. without lowering to the ground. The climber hang-dogged the route. Now if the climber did this just to get to the top of the route, that's one thing. But (according to Joe) if the objective was to work out the moves for a later red-point, then those are sport climbing tactics. It's certainly not *my* definition of what modern trad climbing means, but it's a simple concept. And it's a fine style. GO I am just trying to figure out how narrow Joe's definition is. To me, it seems like it groups a pretty wide range of climbing under the label sport. Why does it matter really? Any time I hang on a route I certainly am not proud of it. I certainly don't claim an ascent, so whether it is trad or sport is irrelevant, because it is a HANGDOG. If you got up the route, it's an ascent. If you hung on the rope or pulled on gear, it's not a free ascent. Jay I think you missed my point, I said I would never claim an ascent(ie climbed it). At that point, it doesn't matter whether its trad or sport since I don't aid climb
Whether you "claim" an ascent or not, the ascent occurred; it just wasn't a free ascent.
This thread contains a remarkable amount of entropy, considering that most of the participants are above the 90th percentile in articulateness around here. There seem to be at least five conversations taking place simultaneously:
1. What is an ascent vs. what is not.
2. What is a free ascent vs. what is not.
3. What is a trad ascent vs. what is not.
4. What is sport climbing vs. what is not.
5. What is a redpoint ascent.
I intended to stay out of this discussion, but I find myself compelled to jump in, since I have been under the impression that these issues were settled decades ago.
An ascent is starting at the bottom of a route and getting to the top of it. If you do so without weighting the protection, then it is a free ascent; otherwise, it is not.
In this post, Cracklover has done about the best job imaginable defining what a trad lead is. I have little to add, except that, especially on a multi-pitch route, trad climbing usually also involves someone seconding the route.
A hangdog ascent means that at some point on the route, you continued to the top of the route after having weighted the rope. It doesn't matter whether you weighted the rope only once, after having fallen, or did so repeatedly to work out various moves.
A redpoint ascent means that you free climbed a route following a previous non-free ascent. It doesn't matter whether you previously hangdogged the route, lowered off after a fall, or outright aid climbed it. Although the term is more often used in a sport climbing context than a trad climbing context, it applies to both types of climbing. It doesn't matter that the term did not exist before the inception of sport climbing; the term is now defined as stated in this paragraph's first sentence, which makes no reference to "sport" or "trad."
It is debatable whether a hangdog ascent or subsequent redpoint qualify as trad climbing. Almost surely, at some previous time they did not; climbers were expected to lower to the ground after a fall. However, today, almost no climbers do this. The practice has all but died out, I suspect, because it is a patently inefficient method of attaining a free ascent, learning new moves, or improving at climbing. Besides, you want to get your gear back, a goal that is not facilitated by lowering off your gear and coming back when you have somehow become a better a climber.
Sport climbing is climbing routes protected with bolts, placed in a manner to permit the leader to concentrate on performing difficult moves with minimal physical risk. Routes protected mainly with removable gear are not sport routes, and cannot be sport climbed. This implies that if you define "trad climbing" narrowly enough (such as to exclude redpoints following a hangdog ascent), some free ascents will be neither sport nor trad ascents. Some people call such ascents "sprad."
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on May 5, 2011, 4:55 AM)
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Edit Log:
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Post edited by jt512
() on May 5, 2011, 3:01 AM
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Post edited by jt512
() on May 5, 2011, 4:50 AM
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Post edited by jt512
() on May 5, 2011, 4:55 AM
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