On average, more than 80 Americans are killed by gunfire every day.

Really, it's the only way for us to keep our population in check. The Chinese method is just so barbaric!

and the gun lobby is trying to pass a bill in the state that would allow workers to bring guns into their workplace with or without their employer's consent.

does this include banks and government buildings?

You think that old f--- is sitting in his jail cell, frantic, because no one will be around this weekend to mow his yard?

That guy is so messed up, if he hadn't had a gun, he would have used something else.

I also know people who have a gun-related God-complex, or however you want to put it. They will bring a gun jammed inside their belt to a party among friends for no other reason than to know they are above everyone else.

This country has a very unique relationship with guns. Everyone preaches how we have the God-given right to protect ourselves but sadly more people die of guns-related homicides here every year, than they do fighting in Iraq for three. In fact it's something like 5 times as much, one year here vs three years there.

Dr. Gary Kleck, a criminologist at Florida State University... showed that possibly as many as 2.5 million people used their gun in self-defence or to prevent a crime each year, if not more. A further breakdown showed that as many as 1.9 million of those instances involved a handgun.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Boondock - you must run with a pretty rough crowd.

It's ironic that the people who consistently cry about our civil rights being taken away/violated are the same people in favor of banning guns in this country.

The inherent problem with any attempt to reduce gun crime by restricting or banning the sale of guns is that it ignores the fact that a thriving black market exists for such 'goods'.

In other words, increased regulation of the legal sale of guns simply can't do that much good because the illegal sale of guns will continue relatively unimpeded.

The flaw in that logic is simply that law-abiding citizens are not likely to make illegal purchases of firearms.

That's the problem. Law-abiding citizens aren't the ones whose access to firearms needs to be restricted. Seems to me that gun related crime is generally perpetuated by the other type.

I agree with your comment, with exceptions. Although law-abiding citizens are less likely to perpetrate firearms crimes, they are, in some cases, more likely to react on impulse in certain situations - mostly from fear and confusion.

I believe that law abiding people should be able to bare arms, but not without thorough training and consequent certification.

We Americans are perhaps the most violent people ever to walk the earth. We are certainly top contenders.

Since I was old enough to talk, I have been subjected daily with images of stylized violence and sex, as have most other Americans. From the old westerns (and the attendant 'real men' behaviors, strongly rooted in violence) that were the staple of reruns when I was a kid to the emergence of the 'ultra-violence' of the 70's (Dirty Harry, Shaft, Clockwork Orange, etc. etc. etc. to the graphics obscenities of modern times, Americans dig violence and indoctrinate our children in its culture.

I grew up a gun afficianado, as my father before me. Guns were in our house, on the gun rack, out in the open and in use most nice weekends. We shot game and clay birds from the time I was old enough to point a 410. By the time I was 15 I'd already hunted more than most adults who consider themselves hunters.

I dreamed of owning pistols and shotguns and rifles. I dreamed of being in combat. I dreamed of being a man.

But coming of age I turned away from firearms. I don't own any now and haven't fired a weapon in more than a decade. I earned a marksman medal in the military because being a good shot is a lot like riding a bicycle (so long as you can see and your hands don't shake), but by then I'd already turned a corner.

I totally lost the will to hunt. And I turned away from gun worship in lieu of other toys... climbing toys!


DMT

If only we could have the same level of peace and tranquility enjoyed throughout the Middle East, Africa, southeast Asia, eastern Europe, Central and South America. :roll:

As far as violence in sports goes, let's look at the behavior of US fans vs. soccer fans in Europe and South America.

Yeah. We're "the most violent people ever to walk the earth". Sure thing. :wink:

If only we could have the same level of peace and tranquility enjoyed throughout the Middle East, Africa, southeast Asia, eastern Europe, Central and South America. :roll:

As far as violence in sports goes, let's look at the behavior of US fans vs. soccer fans in Europe and South America.

Yeah. We're "the most violent people ever to walk the earth". Sure thing. :wink:

(Washington, DC) Although the exact number of Americans killed by gun violence in the 20th century will never be known, it is now all but certain that it will, by any measure, vastly exceed the number of Americans shot and killed on battlefields since 1900. In fact, more Americans were killed with guns in the 18-year period between 1979 and 1997 (651,697), than were killed in battle in all wars since 1775 (650,858). And while a sharp drop in gun homicides has contributed to a decline in overall gun deaths since 1993, the 90's will likely exceed the death toll of the 1980s (327,173) and end up being the deadliest decade of the century. By the end of the 1990s, an estimated 350,000 Americans will have been killed in non-military-related firearm incidents during the decade.*

DMT

In 2003, 91 percent of African-American murder victims were slain by African-American offenders.
• In 2002, African-American males accounted for 47 percent of all homicide victims, while they only account for 6 percent of the entire population.

Playing around with these numbers can get pretty offensive, doncha think?

The most intelligent and accurate posts in this thread, were Boonies!

the price of natural gas is way high.

I didn't play around with a goddamned thing. I quoted the first paragraph, in its entirety, from a well respected pro-gun control site. I'll defer offensive comparisons to the experts. Did you have a point?

DMT

I don't know what he meant about the offensiveness of your post either, but it certainly disproves your "European blood = violence" theory.

I personally blame it on human nature, doesn't matter the culture, race or religion.

I agree we all have a capacity for violence. Especially us Americans!

Let's face the hard facts here... this sort of American death is inevitable. We certainly shouldn't express surprise some old whacko shot an innocent kid over virtually nothing.

Since I was old enough to talk, I have been subjected daily with images of stylized violence and sex, as have most other Americans. From the old westerns (and the attendant 'real men' behaviors, strongly rooted in violence) that were the staple of reruns when I was a kid to the emergence of the 'ultra-violence' of the 70's (Dirty Harry, Shaft, Clockwork Orange, etc. etc. etc. to the graphics obscenities of modern times, Americans dig violence and indoctrinate our children in its culture.

We Americans are perhaps the most violent people ever to walk the earth. We are certainly top contenders. When we're not fighting other nations, we fight ourselves or merely pretend to (football and pro wrestling).

Also, in the case of our daughters, and even with my parents, violence of any sort, any sort at all, is not tolerated in our house. We've tried to teach our daughters that NO VIOLENCE is warranted against them, for any reason, ever, by anyone, including their parents. If more of us were brought up this way, far less of us would purchase tickets to Dirty Harry movies, or Ultimate Fighter Pay-per-views, or any of the other million ways we teach our children to be killers.

Education, one child at a time. Old killers like this dude are already lost. An entire generation of inner city kids is already lost. Only through children, only through voluntary action will people surrender their guns.

If tomorrow the Fed declared all personal weapons illegal, my very first response would be to secure a handgun however. I'm not going to sit around in a civil war with a big target painted on my head without some means of defending myself!

Americans are violent, incredibly violent. That's the root here, not personal firearms.

DMT

Dingus, it almost sounds like you're flacking for Michael Moore, a la Bowling for Columbine

Get it... flacking?

Never watched an episode of the Simpson's either!

DMT

Boon, you've once again made yourself look like an effing retard. ::roll:

Don't know, maybe I am. Couldn't tell you as I've never watched a Michael Moore documentary in my life. Never watched an episode of the Simpson's either!

DMT

please shut up while the grown ups are talking ...


if tim agrees with me on a gun related thread you have no room to talkl

Let's face the hard facts here... this sort of American death is inevitable. We certainly shouldn't express surprise some old whacko shot an innocent kid over virtually nothing.

...


DMT

Let's face the hard facts here... this sort of American death is inevitable. We certainly shouldn't express surprise some old whacko shot an innocent kid over virtually nothing.

...


DMT

Guns dont kill people, people kill people. Its the person pulling the trigger. People have been killing each other as long as there have been arguments amongst the humankind. Get over it, if somebody really wants to kill you and doesnt have a gun they can just bludgen you in the head with a pipe or stab you. What are you going to do then? Are you going to say we have to outlaw all knives because people stab each other? Banning guns doesnt stop anybody from getting them but honest citizens and doesnt stop violence.
-Aaron

I can only safely assume that Tim has for the moment lost his head.

Besides, since when is Tim god? Why don't you go suck hiim off somewhere else.lol

And is there no response to my request that you either b----' or go back to Bosnia? Like it here a little too much don't you? Wouldn't be able to spend countless hours a day on the computer and attempt to get laid by college chicks?

According to these numbers, guns are used in self-defence or to prevent a crime 285 times per hour.

Tgreene - Where are you?!!!!

The flaw in that logic is simply that law-abiding citizens are not likely to make illegal purchases of firearms.

I agree with your comment, with exceptions. Although law-abiding citizens are less likely to perpetrate firearms crimes, they are, in some cases, more likely to react on impulse in certain situations - mostly from fear and confusion.

I believe that law abiding people should be able to bare arms, but not without thorough training and consequent certification.

Agree, and rufas...

I add that while states do not require training to purchase a gun. I think they should. I have met several people who own weapons and haven't the faintest on proper gun ettiquet or how to simply break them down to clean them.

Furthermore, I think that ALL states should adopt CCW programs that are more involved than an application and a $50 processing fee. Comeon, I had to show profientcy with my weapon when getting mine, plus full knowledge of the law(s) applicable for owning/carrying a gun. Simply put, if you are going to own/carry a wepon know how to use it, when to use it, and what the concequences are for both...

Where's tgreen anyways??? Doesn't he show up to these gun threads like flies on s---??

Even if all (as in 100%) of firearms are banned and destroyed, "firearms" crime will continue to persist. Wha....? :shock:

Yes, even with the complete destruction of 100% of ALL firearms, there will continue to be problems. While not nearly as rampant at first, improvised munitions will begin to show up on the underground market, be copied, and spread to the criminally minded individuals that use weapons for illecit purposes today.

If you don't believe me, then just imagine what someone could devise if they had the following:

[*:fac64503b4] 1/2" steel pipe
[*:fac64503b4] Iodide crystals, Mercury Fulminate or match heads
[*:fac64503b4] Cardboard sheeting (posterboard)
[*:fac64503b4] Epoxy

I have just listed the necessary supplies to create a single use 12g shotgun.

Hell, several years ago (just for fun) I used a small garage door opener sized project box to build an electronically fired double barrel pocket shotgun. It had a "dead-man" wrist strap like a jet ski, a toggle which selected the barrel, 2 firing buttons which were activated by a 9v battery, and it was fired via the use of Estes model rocket igniters... It took less than 2 hours to build! :idea:

The point is that no matter what restrictions and laws are put into place, anyone desiring to circumvent them can and will easily do so. Prisons don't give knives to inmates, yet the inmates seem to easily get their hands on shivs!

Boonie and I have gone round and round and round on gun control issues so many times here (and during dinner, and at a bar, etc...), that if anything, I've converted him to our side of the fence. please note where he said he has no problem w/ guns in the hands of RESPONSIBLE individuals... That's a damn far cry from what his stance was when he signed up here on RC last fall.

Coming from a war-torn eastern European nation, Boonie of all people has the right to express his feelings the way that he does, and he's generally the hardest "type" of individual for gun-toting conservatives to reach an understanding with, but with patience and education, he has swayed from his initial beliefs that all guns are evil.

Now, pre-judgemental statements in regards to anothers beliefs just because they differ from yours, does neither side of an issue any good. Your statements would also go far to undermine what so many of us have strived to achieve for years... Boonie on the otherhand, stands to be one of our bestEST representatives of gun culture, because he understands!

I refuse to get sucked into a situation where I'll inadvertantly tell you that you're a psychotic f---ing lunatic... I simply won't do it! :nono:

Not to go off on a tangent but if that is the case why are we trying to control the spread of nuclear weapons? Hell...they'll do it anyway, why bother banning it?

If people are concerned about self defense go learn judo or something...

Palookaville Times:

Local McDonald's customers & staff heaped praise on local man's selfless actions last Tuesday in their restaurant. When local nut job Harold 'the Hammer' Harrison burst in waving an AK panic ensued. However flinty-eyed gunslinger & father of 2 John Johnson quickly assessed the situation. Reaching into his ankle hoster he pulled his trusty glock and splattered Harrison's brains all over the Ronald McDonald statue nearby. He then calmly finished his Happy Meal and returned to work. When reached for comment later Johnson merely said 'it was no big deal.' Local police want to grant him a medal for his fine display.

My problem with the 'gun needed for self-defense' thing is that I never read newspaper stories like the following (& I'm sure CNN and the NRA would be all over it):


I only ever hear depressing stories like the one in the OP here.

It's hard though because I think target shooting/hunting is harmless, and if you're going to let people have guns for that then they will be in the population at large.

To reinforce your points on training though, I was thinking just the other day about the difference between myself and the average idiot that takes pot shots at others... While the "other guy" may get off a single lucky shot while draining a magazine, I train w/ double and triple taps to center mass.

On one occassion many many years ago, I was doing a "ride along" with the Chief of Police of a major metro city. When we responded to a shots fired call in the projects, then were told all other officers were tied up, he gave me his shotgun and asked me if I would back him up if necessary. I took that to be quite a compliment. :)

you and every other internet combat handgunner

Those were some interesting stories...I still don't get the gun culture thing though and probably never will...time to find some other post I reckon :)