Protect the traverse with your second in mind. If you think they'll likely fall, protect often and keep a snug belay when they're coming up.

OTOH, sounds like a nice opportunity to share in some skills instruction, and nobody got too frustrated or hurt. Well done.

Generally speaking, at the end of the traverse, I will belay of my harness and redirect through the anchor to keep the force down in case of a fall.

I would think that the pulley effect from redirecting through the anchor would increase the force on the anchor more than the extra foot or so of rope would reduce it. Don't have the math though, need someone like RGold to solve that one. Its not really a factor 1 fall is it, since there is also a pendulum to consider...

If I'm worried about forces on my anchor I go straight off the harness without redirect.

Thoughts on what? You didn't seem to have any trouble.

I sewed that thing up It was the first time she had ever prussiked. She was glad she got the chance to. She did not freak out and was positive the whole time. I would definitely climb with her again.

Josh

Another alternative is to set up a 3:1 pulley too. Depending on the situation, it could be easier then teaching someone to prussic at the other end of a traverse around a corner with high winds.

It seems to me that even redirecting through the anchor won't keep the direction of pull pointing down. In the best case, with the belayer exerting exactly as much force as the falling climber, you still get a net force diagonally down and to the side. And that's not likely to be the actual case, because at the moment of peak force the system is still dynamic and the falling climber is exerting way more force than the belayer... right? So the net force would still have a sideways component.

But I know some of you know more relevant physics than I do--maybe I've got it wrong.

Josh
belaying off a solid anchor is 1.9876 million times better than belaying directly off your harness.

You don't need to redirect through the anchor, the key is to belay off your harness. The rope can go directly to the last piece you placed. If you do this however, make sure it is very close, if not right next to your anchor, and have them clip in before taking the piece out.

belaying off a solid anchor is 1.9876 million times better than belaying directly off your harness.

Generally speaking, at the end of the traverse, I will belay of my harness and redirect through the anchor to keep the force down in case of a fall. Well, this weekend, I did a climb and thought there was a good chance my second would fall on the traverse. It was a bolted anchor and instead I attached with sliding x and belayed off the anchor, with the thought that it would still equalize pretty well in the event of a fall. Using an autolock off the anchor I felt I would be in better position (and more comfortable) to help my second.

She did fall, and was hanging in front of a blank wall. I walked her through the prussiking process and she did it and finished the climb.

So, any thoughts?

Josh

Yes, one thought - what you did was perfect. For several reasons:

1 - Having an autolock on the anchor puts you in a great position to escape the belay, haul, or whatever you might need to do.
2 - Having a self-equalizing anchor is important in this situation, when you don't know whether the force of the second will be to the side, or down. Not to mention, if your next pitch started with either a continuation of the traverse, or a straight-up line, the anchor is ready to catch your ass either way.

Cheers,

GO

Josh
belaying off a solid anchor is 1.9876 million times better than belaying directly off your harness.

Majid, I don't know where you get your stats, but try belaying off the anchor on a straight in horizontal crack when your second falls on a traverse. THe pull will be to the side putting all the force on your outside piece. Maybe it's bomber, maybe it isn't, but in this situation, it is an inferior way of doing things.

There is NO cookie cutter way that is best in all situations. The sooner you realize this, the better.


Josh

Mike Saint

When you done reading my PM, just think about what GO said here.This is another reason.

you shouldnt use a sliding X on bolted anchors any point could fail and your anchor will be done.

Josh
If I have a solid anchor, you can bet that I will belay my partner 100% at the time rather than belaying him off my harness, now adding a directional and changing configuration is a different game but I still will belay directly off an anchor any day.

no

Was this no meant to mean "disagree" or "agree"?

It means the original statement was so off base that it isn't worth typing any more of a response.

Any chance on posting this in public or is it too "technical" for us common folk. My skills are a bit minimal compared to some of the more experienced gang, but I enjoy reading as much as I can from books and situations so when I am with instructors/mentors I can question all I that I can.

PM's are great if you want to attack someone but why not contribute in public?

edit because I forgot "to" is not the same as "too"...

Read your PM

you shouldnt use a sliding X on bolted anchors any point could fail and your anchor will be done.

.... wow. Just... wow.

One good reason to belay a second with a redirect:

If you're swinging leads, and belay your second with a redirect, when they arrive at the belay you tie them off with a mule knot or stopper below the device, exchange gear, untie the mule, and send them off on the lead. They don't need to separately anchor in, your device doesn't need to switch from the anchor to your body, etc. It saves time and steps at a belay, and at the speed I climb, I can use any speed increases I can get.

If there is any question about the bolts, and if you have a ledge to stand on (or perhaps better, to sit on), then I'd be inclined to use a harness belay for two reasons: (1) the "give" in the belayer will reduce the load to the anchor, and (2) the belayer will be connected to the anchor with a length of climbing rope (which should be made as long as possible, i.e. sit rather than stand if possible), and the energy-absorbing capabilities of the tie-in strand will also protect the anchor. Note that the belay device is clipped not just to the belay loop, but also through the rope tie-in loop, so that (after a little belayer "give") the load is transferred to the anchor via the rope tie-in. Leaving the rope out and just clipping the belay device to the harness belay loop will subject the harness to nasty opposing forces in the most critical area, which seems like a really bad idea, considering how easy it is to avoid.

Does the time it takes to switch from auto lock off the anchor to belaying off your harness or anchor really add that much to your day?

Shaving that small amount of time can be good if your in a hurry and your really good, but if your not, being in that big of a push is an invitation for mistakes

I would think that the pulley effect from redirecting through the anchor would increase the force on the anchor more than the extra foot or so of rope would reduce it. Don't have the math though, need someone like RGold to solve that one. Its not really a factor 1 fall is it, since there is also a pendulum to consider...

If I'm worried about forces on my anchor I go straight off the harness without redirect.

Or maybe there's some confusion between the terms 'redirect' 'indirect' and 'direct'...

In your situation i would say that such is precisely the case.

Well, just so we're all clear, direct belay means the belay device is on the anchor, indirect it's on the harness, and redirect it's on the harness but the rope redirects through a piece of the anchor. I don't like the suggestion that I'm confused. I'm not.

Perhaps I'm the one confused then. Buuuut....

If you're concerned about forces on the anchor, then one should definitely NOT redirect. It increases loads on the anchor via the pulley effect.

Correct, because there is then two forces on the anchor rather than one. I miss-spoke.

Since this thread was revived, I will bring us back on track. We are talking about 2 bomber bolts, so adding your weight to the anchor via the pulley effect is not an issue. And if we are talking bomber gear in a horizontal crack, then also not an issue. The more important issue is direction of pull in case of a fall.


Josh

Complacency? THis is the opposite of complacency. We are talking about priorities in any given situation. If you think that the pulley effect is a factor in every anchor, then that tells me that you either don't know how to build one or don't trust the ones you build. Each and EVERY situation is different and your job is to choose the right method for the job. Often choosing the right method means giving up something to get something.

Josh

Dear Captain Overreaction,

show me where I said the pulley effect is a factor in every anchor.

Sincerely,
Diebetes

p.s. READ WITH MORE CARE

... And if we are talking bomber gear in a horizontal crack, then also not an issue. The more important issue is direction of pull in case of a fall.

Josh

i just want to point out something here....if we are talking a truck anchor of cams in a horizontal crack to which you directly attach the belay device for belaying a second on a traversing pitch whose traverse ENDS at the anchor (in other words, the pitch doesn't traverse low then go straight up to the anchor) i would be worried about the horizontal pull pulling the cams in a lateral direction for which they weren't intended to hold. this make sense?

What I'm concerned about is that no one has mentioned that the pieces protecting the traverse must be solid for the leader fall as well as solid for a fall of the second. The direction of loading in a leader fall (back toward the start of the traverse) is 90 degrees from the direction of loading in the fall of the second (loading is forward toward the end of the traverse.)

As for the belay, make sure it is bombproof.