Lately I've been seeing climbers use cell phones to communicate "off belay" - now that's progress.

That's disturbing, actually. Almost disgusting

--Andy P

Disturbing?

Is there nothing more useful to research?
Best communication is to shut up and climb

As said in the post, this research will form a basis for developing new communication aids - although this has issues with mountaineering ethics, as some have mentioned, it could also save lives!!

I agree... YOU should shut up.

Wow, what do we have here? Looks like you got offended by me making fun of your 30lb rack and your struggling partner that was sherping your crap for you.

Whatever dude, if you don't like my opinion then just move on or don't ask for one (I did not ask for backpack help nor did I solicit a communications feedback).

A study to figure out the best way to communicate? Thats what we've been reduced to?


Why not just WIFI all of amerika and take our puters up the route.

Using radios on routes where you know regular communication is going to be strained or impossible is an EXCELLENT option. If you're disagreeing with that, then you've personally never needed it or have never tried it.

You're right, in 33 years of climbing I've never needed electronics of any kind to climb. Do a long wandering pitch with sport draws on a high wind day and I bet you would like to have radios. Don't do it - sling appropriately or climb with half ropes. If drag is so bad you can't communicate through the ropes its too bad to climb with it as well. Avoiding such situations and circumstances is simply part of the craft.

...If you don't know about the topic in question then you probably shouldn't be responding at all. Get a life.

...I've been climbing for about 22 years now, originally learning how to climb through the Yosemite Climbing School when I was 10 and eventually even climbing as a guide for a while. I think I know my shit by now...

...I'm also an engineer, so that helps...

I've seen first-hand what can happen when climbing partners can't communicate because rope-drag makes pull-signals impossible and wind/distance make verbal communication inaudible. Things can get dangerous really fast. How many times have you heard guys yelling back and forth "WHAT?" "WHAT?" "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!". I personally have been there many times myself and seen it with other climbers too many times as well. I once saw a guy who was nearly dropped to his death on a long mulit-pitch route due solely to the fact that his belayer misunderstood him because it was very windy. Using radios on routes where you know regular communication is going to be strained or impossible is an EXCELLENT option. If you're disagreeing with that, then you've personally never needed it or have never tried it.

Using radios on routes where you know regular communication is going to be strained or impossible is an EXCELLENT option. If you're disagreeing with that, then you've personally never needed it or have never tried it.

Comm Aids.... yeah, great. Nice if you're roped soloing a route near a buddies project. OR if you have a few groups who have traveled into an area together and are climbing different routes (check-ins and stuff)

What would benefit more climbers would be to go back to the mentoring system of teaching and away from the “I learned how to belay in the gym so I'm all set for the great outdoors” approach..... What would be the most beneficial thing for climbing in this day and age is for climbers to learn how to improvise again! This seems to be a lost skill amongst most climbers I see these days, and something that was taught during mentoring where you learned the skills of reading your partner and knowing when to think outside of a strict “this is the set procedure” mindset where every step is rigid and set in stone.

A study to figure out the best way to communicate? Thats what we've been reduced to?


Why not just WIFI all of amerika and take our puters up the route.

Cordalette mentality. Its all largo's fault.

DMT

If this was in fact the case then you're right, there's no hope for us! But the point of the questionnaire is to look at the role of communication in mountain sports, how it is hindered and how this affects certain areas. I will not go into details of the questionnaire's results so far as I don't want to bias future answers. However, I will say that perhaps there is a need for a more rigorous standardisation of climbing calls. Perhaps walkie talkies are over complicated in aspects that are not useful for their most common use and too basic for the aspects of communication that matter.

As regards the ethics of climbing and electronic aids, my personal opinion is that you make the sport as dangerous/challenging to yourself as you like and that you should not take it beyond the realms of enjoyment for the sake of traditionalism. As much as we can control our own skill and assessment of our own ability, we cannot control the weather, which is often a major factor in emergency situations. If a loved one's life was put at risk in an extreme sport because of an unexpected change in weather, I know that I would want them to have every reasonable means of overcoming the situation and coming out of it alive.

Anyhoo, it's a good thing for outdoor sports to see such a passionate response to the topic!

I was wondering who was to blame for the downfall of modern climbing. I'll be sure to mention this to John next time I see him at the gym. "Dingus says that..."

Jay

As regards the ethics of climbing and electronic aids, my personal opinion is that you make the sport as dangerous/challenging to yourself as you like and that you should not take it beyond the realms of enjoyment for the sake of traditionalism.

Ive got your comm aid right here pal.

I also find it very interesting that you can replace the work "radio" with "power bar" in you last post and the point is equally as obvious, but it makes more sense.

Could someone explain to me why the idea of comm aids is eliciting such a negative reaction from the community?

Could someone explain to me why the idea of comm aids is eliciting such a negative reaction from the community?

It is basically a symptom and result of the addition of a couple of million risk-averse 'climbers' interested not so much in climbing per se, but in a risk-free entertainment option.

It isn't the comms, it's the mindset the need for them arises from that is eliciting such a negative reaction. It is basically a symptom and result of the addition of a couple of million risk-averse 'climbers' interested not so much in climbing per se, but in a risk-free entertainment option.

After twenty years of full-steam-ahead, gym-powered demographics and economics, 'climbing' for about 85% of 'climbers' is something quite different from what climbing was in terms of self-reliance, risk-aversion, acceptance of responsibility, skills, and craft. "Comms aids" essentially represent just more of the same drift of compensating for, and enabling, folks who, to be blunt, simply aren't up to the particular task at hand. Flooding the rocks with "comm aids" to catch a few [Darwinian] exceptions is the very definition of a form of enablement.

Wow. That's a stupid argument.

Seriously, if you're going to promote that point of view then you cannot reasonably deny that most climbers are enabled to climb through use of ropes, harnesses, bolts, and other forms of protection because they're just not up to the task of free soloing.

The truth is that a majority of the outdoor climbing community uses a wide variety of gear and techniques to protect themselves on a climb and that a communications device is really just another piece of gear that helps improve the safety of a climb.

You write about risk aversion in a manner that insinuates the dangers of climbing aren't terribly significant when in fact rock climbing is a dangerous hobby that has not been made safe, but safer over time through innovation and technological development.

Improving the protection of a climber has been a long standing trend in rock climbing and it would be ignorant to assume that the development of any sort of communication device was not inevitable.

In other words, this was bound to happen and it's not a bad thing because it is no more a substitute for any of the virtues or facets of climbing you listed in your post than a rope or a harness is.

Could someone explain to me why the idea of comm aids is eliciting such a negative reaction from the community?

I was wondering who was to blame for the downfall of modern climbing. I'll be sure to mention this to John next time I see him at the gym. "Dingus says that..."

Jay

Something that has intrigued me - why do people assume a communication aid is an electronic device?! Development of communication aids may be a programme that helps beginner climbers to learn the calls and techniques and become experienced climbers, under the wing of other experienced climbers.

if a rope is not sufficient to communicate with, then nothin's gonna help them out. Especially when the batteries go dead or the thing gets dropped.PTFTMFCW!

You have simply reiterated the reason behind my asking that question. Why have there been several pages worth of comments on electrical communication aids?! The fact that there have been pages worth of the aforementioned comments is no reason for there being so! The point of my previous comment was more aimed at stating that there are other forms of communication aids than electronic ones, as I am sure there are, amongst those who have read this post, people who could successfully develop such aids.

likely to be used as a basis for new sports specific communication aids.

You have simply reiterated the reason behind my asking that question. Why have there been several pages worth of comments on electrical communication aids?!

Bolts are exactly like the "comms aids" a clear and graphic form of enablement without which - there would be about 85% fewer people who identified themselves as climbers.

Second, what's the problem with having more climbers in the world? Personally climbing is my favorite thing to do, and I take every opportunity I get to introduce it to people who haven't tried it in the hopes that they might find as much joy in it as I do.

Proselytizing is more appropriate in The Soap Box forum.

Reading your posts, I would have to say you would fit right in with the crowd over there... PTC, tradman, etc. etc.

You're not one of their other accounts, are you?

Why?

Then what else have these two pages been about?

Supertroll?

up to page three edit

Ok, you guys must be the resident elitists, right? Umm, ok, you guys are the best, I bow down to your excellence. I know I don't have a right to post in your presence, as you most likely own this forum and the only comments you'll allow are ones that are negative and/or have nothing to do with the thread in question like whining about how bolts have made you less elite and worrying about how "comm aids" might do the same. And even if you don't own this forum, you do have WAY more posts than me (wow 2800!) and considering just that fact alone I know I will never be as good as you or worthy of posting replies anywhere you might happen to see them. I am truly sorry for offending you in your temple of self-worship, please don't beat me.

Shitty reception cake.

I've heard most brides after eating that shitty cake are less receptive to sex.

I tried communicating with the rope last weekend...

I doesn't work.

For a start, trying to keep the line tight was tricky.
But the hardest bit was threading the rope through the bottom of the cans and then holding it to your mouth/ear without untying.
Plus, I think that the rope might be too thick to carry the vibrations of my voice.
Should I use thinner double ropes to remedy this problem?

I tried communicating with the rope last weekend...

I doesn't work.

For a start, trying to keep the line tight was tricky.
But the hardest bit was threading the rope through the bottom of the cans and then holding it to your mouth/ear without untying.
Plus, I think that the rope might be too thick to carry the vibrations of my voice.
Should I use thinner double ropes to remedy this problem?

yes.
I suspect the problem you were experiencing was a result of both of you trying to speak through the single rope at the same time. The thinner double ropes will actually help provide a clearer signal. One (yellow, in my case) is for transmitting, while the other (grey, also in my case) is for receiving.

I have done away with the old-school tin-cans (the sharp edges scare me!!) opting instead for a pre-threaded 1-liter plastic soda bottle with the end cut off. It can be a PITA when you're making a clip, but with some practice and care, soon you'll not even notice it!

Sweet!

Ummm... one more question: Does it matter that my ropes are red and blue respectively? Should I use blue for in or outgoing messages?

Cheers

Adam

I've heard most brides after eating that shitty cake are less receptive to sex.