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USnavy
Apr 13, 2009, 7:07 AM
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So recently I read a little pictograph in a Petzl catalog that warned users not to use a Sing on the bolt end of a quickdraw. The picture appeared to imply that if you did the top of the body of the carabiner could become jammed between the hanger and bolt. If this happened and the climber fell the hanger would essentially create a class one lever which would greatly increase the stress on the biner ultimately causing it to fail.
So ultimately my question is, is truly a bad idea to secure both carabiners to the dogbone? Personally I love the fact that both biners stay correctly orientated throughout the entire climb and so far I have that to be a safety advantage. But is there some hidden danger not immediately obvious as the Petzl catalog implies? Clearly if the biner did get jammed in-between the hanger and bolt that would cause a safety issue. But the question is, will the Sting truly increase the chances of this happening to the point where it would be more of a safety issue to keep it on?
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 13, 2009, 7:10 AM)
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shockabuku
Apr 13, 2009, 9:23 AM
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USnavy wrote: So recently I read a little pictograph in a Petzl catalog that warned users not to use a Sing on the bolt end of a quickdraw. The picture appeared to imply that if you did the top of the body of the carabiner could become jammed between the hanger and bolt. If this happened and the climber fell the hanger would essentially create a class one lever which would greatly increase the stress on the biner ultimately causing it to fail. So ultimately my question is, is truly a bad idea to secure both carabiners to the dogbone? Personally I love the fact that both biners stay correctly orientated throughout the entire climb and so far I have that to be a safety advantage. But is there some hidden danger not immediately obvious as the Petzl catalog implies? Clearly if the biner did get jammed in-between the hanger and bolt that would cause a safety issue. But the question is, will the Sting truly increase the chances of this happening to the point where it would be more of a safety issue to keep it on?
You mean this thing:
It's called a STRING
The purpose of a draw is to allow freedom of movement between the rope and the bolt hanger. Putting a string on the bolt end biner restricts this range of freedom. It makes the whole draw more rigid. It's a subset of the reason you don't just clip one biner to the bolt even for straight line routes. You'll notice that every dogbone made by any company is sewn loose on the bolt end and tighter on the rope end. Are you smarter than
I know I don't know more about equipment than all of the manufacturers and designers around the world. Do you?
I'd take their word for it.
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jakedatc
Apr 13, 2009, 11:09 AM
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I agree with Shock..... you are not smarter than the gear company.
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gunkiemike
Apr 13, 2009, 12:37 PM
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USnavy wrote: So ultimately my question is, is truly a bad idea to secure both carabiners to the dogbone? Personally I love the fact that both biners stay correctly orientated throughout the entire climb and so far I have that to be a safety advantage. But is there some hidden danger not immediately obvious as the Petzl catalog implies? Clearly if the biner did get jammed in-between the hanger and bolt that would cause a safety issue. But the question is, will the Sting truly increase the chances of this happening to the point where it would be more of a safety issue to keep it on?
There is a danger, but it is neither hidden nor inobvious. It is exactly what's in the catalog. IMO you're overthinking it with your "class 1 lever" model. It can be as simple as unclipping or cross loading. Bottom line - don't do it.
(From what I've seen of your past posts, you are in a position to make safety-related decisions for others. Second-guessing the manufacturers is NOT something you want to be doing.)
(This post was edited by gunkiemike on Apr 13, 2009, 4:36 PM)
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rgold
Apr 13, 2009, 2:43 PM
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It is a under-appreciated fact that carabiners can fail below their rated strengths if the load is not applied as near as possible to the solid (non-gate) side. Indeed, the leverage that results from applying a load near the gate can break a biner under some climbing fall conditions. This is a concern when using clove hitches and the munter hitch, which should always be tied so that the load strand is near the solid side of the biner.
The String and other devices meant to keep the rope-end biner oriented properly bind the sling and biner into a unit that moves with the sling, rather than the sling riding freely around the biner without moving the biner. This could allow the bolt-end biner to be rotated into a bad loading position, as diagrammed in the Petzl catalog. To be fair, a free-moving sling could also conceivably slide up over the gate of the bolt-end biner and detach under load, so there are conceivable dangers with either method.
Petzl also has a warning about the free moving sling sliding over the gate, but ascribes that danger to back-clipping. However, it is also a possibility on traversing routes when the rope runs horizontally to the side of a placement, something that may not be a feature of most sport routes but is certainly a possibility on certain trad lines.
Unlikely as any of this sounds, there have been accidents involving the bolt-end biner getting into bad positions, so it seems appropriate to make sure draws are free-sliding on the bolt end and, on traverses or diagonal lines, make sure to clip so that when the draw does slide up the biner, it will be on the solid side.
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clc
Apr 13, 2009, 2:52 PM
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navy you don't even know what its called. 2 different spellings. You want the sling on the bolt biner to move around.
I bet the research guys at petzl had thought about the idea more than you.
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rocknice2
Apr 14, 2009, 1:01 AM
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Another reason to use bolts instead of studs.
Bolts have much less exposed to catch a biner.
Navy, also when clipping a bolt. Clip so that the gate faces away from the path taken above the bolt. IE climb right / gate left & vice versa
Back to your regularly scheduled program
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Craggmire
Apr 14, 2009, 1:31 AM
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If you're going to put strings on both ends you might as well just use one biner dirrectly to hanger. If the draw is too ridged and you get some funky movement on the draw it'll basically backclip and unclip itself
(This post was edited by Craggmire on Apr 14, 2009, 1:32 AM)
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Alpine07
Apr 14, 2009, 2:10 AM
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If you just use trad draws you don't have to worry about any of that. 
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USnavy
Apr 15, 2009, 1:34 AM
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rgold wrote: To be fair, a free-moving sling could also conceivably slide up over the gate of the bolt-end biner and detach under load, so there are conceivable dangers with either method.
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james481
Apr 15, 2009, 6:37 AM
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I'm having trouble visualizing how this could happen exactly without the draw being backclipped, unless there was some interaction between the bolt-end biner and the rock or bolt. This does happen (mostly on poorly placed bolts) and you need to be able to identify situations where this may be likely and know how to correct it.
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mojomonkey
Apr 15, 2009, 2:05 PM
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That seems like a highly unlikely chain of events to worry so much about... Especially when the fix has drawbacks in the "normal" scenario.
Having some "play" in the draw for the far more likely cases seems way more useful overall. Having the whole draw move as one stiff unit seems more likely to increase your chances of unclipping a draw in the normal case.
And to clarify your step 1, as far as I've ever heard you want to face the rope end biner away from the expected path of travel as your primary concern. If your draws have the gates facing the same way, the statements are equivalent.
The next concern is the gear end biner. You would prefer that one's gate to not be on the bolt head side, as that could lever open the gate too. Depending on the bolt placement and line, this may mean you'd want the gates opposed for that bolt. If it looks like I am in such a situation, having a loose gear end biner allows me to rotate it to hang upside down and accommodate the bolt head and line of travel.
(This post was edited by mojomonkey on Apr 15, 2009, 2:18 PM)
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bill413
Apr 15, 2009, 2:19 PM
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In the sequence illustrated, I'm having trouble visualizing the Step 3 to Step 4 transition. That is, how does the draw migrate from the end of the biner up to the gate.
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a-e-jones
Apr 15, 2009, 2:35 PM
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i think your grasping for straws here mate, the chances are so slim that gravity wouldn't pull that quickdraw back down into the proper orientation
there are many other things to worry about before this
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jrathfon
Apr 15, 2009, 3:04 PM
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tell your belayer to give you some slack so the rope isn't taught and pulling that thing upwards. a little play makes for a softer catch too. don't worry about the whip! (that's half the fun of spurt climbing anyways right? that's why i thought everyone's into it)
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bill413
Apr 15, 2009, 3:15 PM
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kachoong wrote: USnavy wrote: [img]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6214/img4682w.jpg[/img] [img]http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1633/img4684.jpg[/img] Somehow the draw jumped to another bolt and hanger.... how did that happen? * scooby doo voice* Ro Roh Raggy!
I can hardly wait until it hits the market.
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ACJ
Apr 15, 2009, 3:17 PM
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I've got to admit, the steps it would take to make this happen seem silly. With your pics it shows that the rope would have to pull the draw up and over and then pin it against the rock to get it caught on the bolt. The only way I could see that happening is if you had a string on both sides. Usually a draw goes limp as the rope pull decreases. Then the manipulation of the dogbone seems silly too.
I use spirit draws exclusively and don't think you are going to add any safety to it by putting another string on it. As far as more dangerous goes, if Petzl says don't do it then that's definitely a reliable source of information. At the same time, they say don't use strings on slings because you can manage to dumb it up and clip it in wrong which is silly too. I use strings on my trad draws and the extra slings I carry around my body. I have whipped on them and nothing has ever happened because they were loaded correctly.
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james481
Apr 15, 2009, 5:46 PM
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USnavy wrote: james481 wrote: I'm having trouble visualizing how this could happen exactly without the draw being backclipped, unless there was some interaction between the bolt-end biner and the rock or bolt. This does happen (mostly on poorly placed bolts) and you need to be able to identify situations where this may be likely and know how to correct it. There are multiple ways what I explained can happen and the draw can come unclipped in the following fashion regardless of which way you face the gate. The following is the problem I had with a draw coming unclipped before I added the Strings to the top draw.
Thanks for the informative pictures, it really helps me picture what you're describing.
USnavy wrote: Step 1: You see the path veers to the left so you face the gate to the right (like you should).
Again, this isn't a hard and fast rule, but rather the most desirable orientation for most situations. One needs to be able to identify when this "rule" doesn't apply. Also, I would say that, as illustrated, your bolt would be considered poorly placed, as the hanger should be oriented the other way for a climb that goes left (I think?).
USnavy wrote: [img]http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/980/img4680r.jpg[/img] Step 2: As you climb above the draw the pull from the rope pulls the draw up above the bolt (as commonly happens). [img]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6214/img4682w.jpg[/img]
With you so far...
USnavy wrote: Step 3: The draw starts to fall back below the bolt and the body of the biner gets caught between the hanger and bolt / stud (or it gets caught in the hanger itself). [img]http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1633/img4684.jpg[/img]
This doesn't show the draw falling straight back down as it typically does, but rather rotating up and around to the left. I have a hard time picturing how that could happen with the draw clipped to the rope, unless someone is holding you on a super tight belay, maybe?
USnavy wrote: Step 4: The draw falls completely down and the dogbone is now resting on the gate and the top biner is still pinned. [img]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2617/img4685b.jpg[/img]
Here's where you lose me. This doesn't show the draw falling at all, but rather lifting up and around the carabiner. Does your belayer keep tension on the line at all times when you're climbing or something? In other words, gravity can't cause the draw to do this.
USnavy wrote: Step 5: The gate opens. [img]http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/9447/img4686p.jpg[/img] I found that using a String on the top biner completely eliminates the chances of this happening and thus that’s the "added safety feature" I attributed to using a String on the top biner. Also, the above example is not the only way the biner can open if there is not a String on the top biner.
This seems like an incredible series of events to me, and if you've seen this in the wild multiple times as you claim, then I would posit there is something else wrong with your safety system or belayer (or maybe whoever placed the bolts) that is causing it, and has nothing to do with the stiffness of your draws. Also, with a totally stiff draw (ie Strings on both sides), I see a much greater possibility of rotating the bolt end carabiner into undesirable positions than without. Again, one must be able to identify situations where this could happen and take preventative steps (like using a locking draw or rotating the bolt end biner to a more suitable orientation).
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chossmonkey
Apr 16, 2009, 10:53 PM
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With really short draws it increases the chance of uncliping from the bolt immensely.
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chossmonkey
Apr 16, 2009, 10:56 PM
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USnavy wrote: I found that using a String on the top biner completely eliminates the chances of this happening and thus that’s the "added safety feature" I attributed to using a String on the top biner. Also, the above example is not the only way the biner can open if there is not a String on the top biner.
Are you completely retarded?
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jt512
Apr 17, 2009, 2:01 AM
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USnavy wrote: Step 3: The draw starts to fall back below the bolt and the body of the biner gets caught between the hanger and bolt / stud (or it gets caught in the hanger itself). 
In order for the draw to have gotten into the pictured position, it would had to have rotated up and left (ie, clockwise) from its starting position. For that to have happened you would had to have been climbing to the left of the bolt once you had gotten above it. If, in fact, the route proceeded to the left above the bolt, then you should have clipped the draw in the opposite direction; ie, with the gates facing right.
You want the gates of both biners on your draws to face away from the direction of travel. That implies that your draws should be set up with the gates facing the same direction (the cis orientation), as the draw is in your picture. For all intents and purposes, a straight, non-wiregate biner cannot get stuck on the bolt head; so, to avoid that being a concern, don't use wiregate or bentgate biners on the bolt end of your draws.
Jay
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yokese
Apr 22, 2009, 7:22 AM
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jt512 wrote: USnavy wrote: Step 3: The draw starts to fall back below the bolt and the body of the biner gets caught between the hanger and bolt / stud (or it gets caught in the hanger itself). In order for the draw to have gotten into the pictured position, it would had to have rotated up and left (ie, clockwise) from its starting position. For that to have happened you would had to have been climbing to the left of the bolt once you had gotten above it. If, in fact, the route proceeded to the left above the bolt, then you should have clipped the draw in the opposite direction; ie, with the gates facing right.
That's how it was clipped. Look the previous picture.
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elcapinyoazz
Apr 23, 2009, 4:02 PM
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DO NOT QUESTION USNAVY!
Don't you know he performs "Bolt safety technical analysis ". He fancies himself a "commercial rigger" as well. Ain't that right "Slayer" Kuchenski?
http://www.rockclimbinghawaii.com/climbaloha/teamclimbaloha.html
Bwahahaha! Pure comedy gold.
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bill413
Apr 23, 2009, 4:20 PM
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elcapinyoazz wrote: Don't you know he performs "Bolt safety technical analysis ". He fancies himself a "commercial rigger" as well. Ain't that right "Slayer" Kuchenski? http://www.rockclimbinghawaii.com/climbaloha/teamclimbaloha.html 
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angry
Apr 23, 2009, 4:34 PM
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angry
Apr 23, 2009, 4:40 PM
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I got the impression that they're using rigger or commercial rigger as anyone who's ever used a rope to do anything. That is rigging.
I once hung a sign off a cliff for a construction company (the project was in the news and they wanted name recognition). I was paid for the job. I suppose I'm a commercial rigger too.
I had a single point and shoot photo of mine published in "The New Yorker" completely on accident. That makes me a professional climbing photographer.
For my student teaching I had a group of kids I took to the climbing wall next to the school for about a month, that makes me a guide.
This is a fun game.
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shockabuku
Apr 23, 2009, 4:40 PM
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Wow. Not even a sailor. I'm mightily disappointed.
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jt512
Apr 23, 2009, 5:43 PM
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elcapinyoazz wrote: http://www.rockclimbinghawaii.com/climbaloha/teamclimbaloha.html
"Bolt safety technical analysis." Yeah, right.
Jay
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james481
Apr 26, 2009, 4:07 AM
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jt512 wrote: elcapinyoazz wrote: http://www.rockclimbinghawaii.com/climbaloha/teamclimbaloha.html "Bolt safety technical analysis." Yeah, right. Jay
Also, notice the draw with double Strings... 
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jt512
Apr 26, 2009, 4:13 AM
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james481 wrote: jt512 wrote: elcapinyoazz wrote: http://www.rockclimbinghawaii.com/climbaloha/teamclimbaloha.html "Bolt safety technical analysis." Yeah, right. Jay Also, notice the draw with double Strings...
Then there is this obvious attempt to misrepresent his experience:
"Originally from New York where he began climbing at the age of 13..."
Jay
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tradrenn
May 1, 2009, 9:47 AM
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USnavy wrote: james481 wrote: I'm having trouble visualizing how this could happen exactly without the draw being backclipped, unless there was some interaction between the bolt-end biner and the rock or bolt. This does happen (mostly on poorly placed bolts) and you need to be able to identify situations where this may be likely and know how to correct it. There are multiple ways what I explained can happen and the draw can come unclipped in the following fashion regardless of which way you face the gate. The following is the problem I had with a draw coming unclipped before I added the Strings to the top draw. Step 1: You see the path veers to the left so you face the gate to the right (like you should). [img]http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/980/img4680r.jpg[/img] Step 2: As you climb above the draw the pull from the rope pulls the draw up above the bolt (as commonly happens). [img]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6214/img4682w.jpg[/img] Step 3: The draw starts to fall back below the bolt and the body of the biner gets caught between the hanger and bolt / stud (or it gets caught in the hanger itself). [img]http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1633/img4684.jpg[/img] Step 4: The draw falls completely down and the dogbone is now resting on the gate and the top biner is still pinned.  Step 5: The gate opens. [img]http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/9447/img4686p.jpg[/img] I found that using a String on the top biner completely eliminates the chances of this happening and thus that’s the "added safety feature" I attributed to using a String on the top biner. Also, the above example is not the only way the biner can open if there is not a String on the top biner.
To this I can only reply with a real live pic.
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lemon_boy
May 1, 2009, 2:23 PM
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navy,
in the mid 90's i was sport climbing, and a guy was climbing a route about 20 feet left of me. he fell at the 3rd bolt, the biner broke, and he hit the deck. fortunately, he wasn't injured. he was using quickdraws with rubberbands around the webbing on the bolt-end. his partner had warned him about this because he had noticed that the bolt end biners were getting jammed up in the bolt hangers.
i had a partner who insisted on using this setup. we would always climb on our own draws. i kept pointing out whenever the biner would get jammed in the hanger, and he would say something like "its probably strong enough". finally, he was leading a route that was somewhat runout, and was well above the bolt on fairly hard climbing. i pointed this out again and it finally freaked him out a bit. the biner was jammed in there pretty well, and he had to spend a fair bit of time flipping the rope to dislodge it.
i agree that it is possible for this happen whether you are banding the bolt-end biner or not, but it will happen more frequently when the runner is restricted from moving freely (ie banded). also, when it is banded, it has a lot harder time moving back to the correct position.
i h
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. All bets are off when that happens... 
