I think the other thread got personal but it made me think. How big of a deal is 5.12? To sport climbers, trad climbers, whatever you are.

I climb a bit of trad and am trying to get more into it now that I'm back in the states for the summer. I have put up new routes and climb a lot of adventure multi-pitch but most of you would still consider me a "sport climber." It doesn't matter really what you call me, I just like to climb.

Redpointing a .12 has never been something that I set my sights on too heavily, and I have never actually sent a .12 at a high profile place in the states. Now, I have sent 7a+ and tried a few 7b's and 7b+'s that I know I will get when I get back to Asia in the fall. There is a .12a at the Red that I'll send in the fall as well. But the grades are all over the place now a days, and the one at the red is admittedly soft but its fun. Sometimes it's hard to find a .12a that really feels like a 5.12, which may be why I get on more .12b's and .12c's. Of course I'll be in Rifle soon and that will all change.


My point is, I have never actually worked a .12a. I have worked .12b's (7b) and 12c's because the line was so amazing, but it was not for the grade. I'll send them eventually, and I'll send a real .12a eventually, but I have much more important goals like putting up more new routes next year in Asia, climbing more trad this summer, and climbing at as many places as I can over the next few years. My home state of NC, Utah, The Valley, El Potrero, and everywhere inbetween. I also want to boulder more, spend time with friends at the Red and the New, and work as little as possible.

How does this compare to all you normal climbers out there... sport or not... who don't climb 5.12. Maybe you are really close, maybe you are not. Either way, how important is it?

I think the other thread got personal but it made me think. How big of a deal is 5.12? To sport climbers, trad climbers, whatever you are.
?

I live and Asia and I put up a lot of routes in the region. Currently I am in INdonesia. When you're back this way, let me know, maybe we can hook up. As you know, Asia isn't that big.

Where have you been developing routes?

As for climbing a certain grade, who cares. Are you having fun? That's what matters.

the harder you climb, the less likely you will have to wait in line for anything. I have moved beyond climbing with and catering to 5.10 climbers, and all the drama, headache, and compromise that accompanies that. The main group I climb with is solid at 5.12, and even when we are fairly large, we are efficient and fairly clusterfuck-free. That's why I like climbing the grade.

That's all I'm going to say.

I have mostly been putting up stuff on Koh Phi Phi in Thailand... not because it's the best climbing in the world but because I have a lot of good friends there and me and my girlfriend can live and work there. Some of the best moderate multi-pitch climbing in Thailand has rusted away on PP, so I plan to spend a lot of time next year rebolting. I also have plans for a few brand new areas there, as well as rebolting what will again be the tallest climb in Thailand and maybe all of SE Asia. I would also love to do some development down in Malaysia... loads of potential there and amazing people.

It will all depend on how many bolts we can get next year. We have decided to stop using stainless bolts and only use titanium from now on, because stainless in southern Thailand lasts less than 10 years, with some bolts lasting less than two. Malaysia is more dependent on time and partners than bolts, because expansion bolts seem to work there.

Shoot me an email... ryan.tyler.williams@gmail.com.

I am still learning when it comes to development, and am always looking for experienced partners.

Thanks for the reply. I love climbing in Thailand, but I have not hit Phi phi yet. I will, maybe during Christmas break actually.

As for development in Malaysia, well I have to agree. I am keeping my eyes open when it come to the American International School of Malaysia in KL. Once they have a opening I like, I do everything I can to get the posting.

Bolts in Asia, that is the hard part isn't it. Good call on going with Tatanium, Southern Thailand needs it.

So, how many routes on Phi phi now?

the harder you climb, the less likely you will have to wait in line for anything. I have moved beyond climbing with and catering to 5.10 climbers, and all the drama, headache, and compromise that accompanies that. The main group I climb with is solid at 5.12, and even when we are fairly large, we are efficient and fairly clusterfuck-free. That's why I like climbing the grade.

That's all I'm going to say.

Easy for you to say. You're married.

Easy for you to say. You're married.

the harder you climb, the less likely you will have to wait in line for anything.

I have moved beyond climbing with and catering to 5.10 climbers, and all the drama, headache, and compromise that accompanies that.

The main group I climb with is solid at 5.12, and even when we are fairly large, we are efficient and fairly clusterfuck-free. That's why I like climbing the grade.

I climb all over the place, in grades, not location. I can flash V5s and climb V8 boulders after a day of roped climbing. I have nearly 'soloed' 5.13a above a trapeze net (young blood in Squamish) and yet fell leading 'Apron Strings' a 10b the same day on my OS attempt. If I am climbing a 5.12 trad route and I am falling a lot I usually just pull on a peice of gear to get to the top.. unless its single pitch. Whatever, I dont care. I just enjoy myself...

Could you explain? What drama, headache and compromise are you talking about (especially at a sport crag)? I'm not saying you should not climb with who you want to climb with, but I have a good friend / regular crag partner who climbs 5.13/14, and I belay him on what he wants to climb and he on what I'd like to climb at crags where a 5.10 is right next to (or a few yards down from) the harder climbs he likes. Ditto at trad crags like Donner summit where you have a 5.10 chimney next to (you can stand an belay in the same spot for both) a 5.12d thin finger crack.

What do 5.12 and clusterfuck-free have to do with each other? I have alpine partners who climb no harder than 5.8 trad who are lightyears more experienced with ropecraft and moving over rock than some 5.12 gym / crag climbers I know.

Are you the one who made the movie that was shown at the Squamish Mountain festival last year? It was pretty good. I wish I had thought of the trapeze first.

Josh

IMO 5.12 is when a lot of areas get opened up for you.

It is great that you have areas where a 5.10 climber and 5.13 climber can climb side-by-side for a day. Maybe there are more crags out there like these. But in my experience at places like RRG, you usually have a " main" grade for the crag, with couple easier warm-ups, not a big spread. (A pretty common would be something like one or two 5.11s and a bunch of 5.12s-5.13s, or maybe one or two 5.10s and a whole bunch of 5.11-5.12s) In some cases, there is an easier wall within 10-15 minutes walk. In some cases, there isn't. But even a 10-15 min walk back and forth all day starts feeling like a lot of drain when you are trying to work on a project, and your partner is, too, and your projects are not right next to each other.
So a group that climbs 5.10-5.11 can have a choice of places to go, and a group that climbs 5.11-5.12 had a lot of choices to go to, and a group that climbs 5.12-5.13 has even more choices, etc. But a group that has some people climbing 5.9-5.10, and some people climbing 5.12 usually finds themselves limited to just a couple of crags with that spread of the grades within walking distance, and even then it seems not worth going together as a group, but better to just split up according to climbing ability.




Of course there are many experienced climbers who don't pull hard grades, and plenty of climbers who have gotten strong fast in the gym and have no clue whatsoever that they are not in the gym anymore, when they go to a crag.

But somehow when you go to a 5.10 crag, there is a lot of "oh, no, don't pull our tope, so-and-so wants to toprope it, too, but he is right now climbing over there, and that one is our rope, too, and we have three more people who are going to toprope it, and then we are in line for that one over there, after those 8 people are done with it". It seems to be quite common at a 5.10 crag that there is ONE person in the group that can actually lead that route, if barely, and a whole bunch of people who can flail-toprope it, but not lead it. Therefore, there are a lot of toprope epics, each pitch seems to be taking an hour, large groups or clueless people, lots of overall crankiness, etc.

When you go to a 5.12 crag, even if it is quite crowded-- and at the Red 5.12 isn't an elite grade that would guarantee you a no-crowd crag -- everything seems to be moving much smoother. You usually don't hear things like " oh, don't pull that rope, so-and-so wants to toprope it, but only after he finishes the flailing on that other one and rests for a long time, and 3 other people want to, also, but not quite ready yet, and meanwhile, the rope stays put b/c the one person who got to the anchors on that rope isn't at all sure that he can do it again, and no one else in the group can do it either..." What you get at a crowded 5.12 crag instead is something like:"Sure, you can pull the rope and climb on our draws while I'm resting before the next burn. Go ahead!" The groups are generally smaller, the people are more efficient, most people actually can lead the routes they are climbing, instread of relying on one guy to put up topropes for them, or even if toproping for some reason, they are climbing relatively quickly, etc. The atmosphere is somehow different...

Maybe you should try something New!

I see what you did there, and I don't like it one bit, nosiree.

I am with Lena on this: I would like to climb harder so I can have the ability and freedom to get on more amazing lines. The lower the grade you climb at, the more limited are your options.
Plus where I climb regularly, at the Red, there are so many amazing lines at 5.12 level that it is impossible for me not to want to climb 5.12.

That's the best reason to want to get better at any sport....especially climbing. feeling more solid ups enjoyment of any grade climb. it's like being able to ski anywhere, instead of looking at the trail map.

I'll keep that in mind for the remainder of the month :))

[I meant good looking lines. I wouldnt know how they are if I cannot do them anyway. But some routes just are more aesthetic looking than others, and that is a motivator for me.]

Hey Olive, pay little attention to Jay--he's not all that amazing.

Curt

It's actually gotten to the point where I'd rather hear "dude" twice in one sentence than "amazing" even once.

Don't get me started on "ramp up" or "at the end of the day."

Jay

Dude, at the end of the day it's all good. I wish I could have worked "ramp up" in there somewhere, but that would have been a real stretch.

Curt

Dude, at the end of the day it's all good.

Curt

If you use the word "amazing" more than about once a month, then it is almost certain that there is nothing actually amazing about what you are talking about.

jay

Well, Olive climbs mostly at the Red. I think that the word "amazing" is quite appropriate in describing the lines there, especially when compared to your SoCal choss, Jay.

ZING!

Dude, at the end of the day, isn't JTree the most amazing-looking pile of unclimable rock?

Anyone in decent shape with relatively good technique/skills and endurance can climb 5.12. It's not a big deal.


Little kids in Europe warm up on .12's..

I found a "red" sport route on the Front Range yesterday. 30 degrees overhung, mostly jugs, and old school bolting. 12a and really awesome.

Thanks for reminding me about "awesome."

Jay

Are you going to put a list of words you don't like into the killfile project?

A word replacement filter...hmmm.

s/(amazing|awesome)/high quality/g
s/at the end of the day/in the end/g
s/dude/sir/g
s/your/you're/g #Right more often than not
s/raping/rapping/g
s/majid_sabet wrote.*$//gs

(Now we'll see who the real nerds are.)

Jay

Heh, put that in your js and watch as Infernal Exploder chews on every page for like ten minutes trying to figure out the regular expressions... not that I necessarily think knowing regex makes one a real nerd... right? right?!?

Don't you want to make that case insensitive?

Degaine,
I am just saying that there is an incredible freedom to your entire group doing one 5.11 warmup, and then progressing right on to harder stuff. None of this "oh, what crag do we go to? So and so wants a 10a, wah wah wah."
Not to mention, as I already said, that easier climbs will nearly always have more lines on them, and be more likely to have topropes hung on them.
My two favorite crags, Indian Creek and the Red River Gorge, both have plenty of areas where the entrance fee is 5.11 trad or 5.12 sport.

I don't care how much alpine experience your partner has, is he going to go to a crag where the only stuff he can climb is on flail-TRs?

It is great that you have areas where a 5.10 climber and 5.13 climber can climb side-by-side for a day. Maybe there are more crags out there like these. But in my experience at places like RRG,

But somehow when you go to a 5.10 crag, there is a lot of "oh, no, don't pull our tope, so-and-so wants to toprope it, too, but he is right now climbing over there, and that one is our rope, too, and we have three more people who are going to toprope it, and then we are in line for that one over there, after those 8 people are done with it". It seems to be quite common at a 5.10 crag that there is ONE person in the group that can actually lead that route, if barely, and a whole bunch of people who can flail-toprope it, but not lead it. Therefore, there are a lot of toprope epics, each pitch seems to be taking an hour, large groups or clueless people, lots of overall crankiness, etc.

….

When you go to a 5.12 crag, even if it is quite crowded-- and at the Red 5.12 isn't an elite grade that would guarantee you a no-crowd crag -- everything seems to be moving much smoother.

degaine, where are these magic crags with quality 5.10s and 5.12/13s next to each other?

degaine, where are these magic crags with quality 5.10s and 5.12/13s next to each other?

Off the top of my head, within an hour or so of my house...

Riverside Quarry
New Jack City
Joshua Tree
Suicide

fail. Everyone knows that Jtree has NO quality routes of any grade next to each other. heh.

The bottom line of all of this conversation is this: if you climb with people who climb at your grade, you will get more routes in and have a better climbing day. that is all.

fail. more routes in does not mean a better day. besides, this is coming from a guy that climbs with his wife all the time. Nothing wrong with that, but it means you don't climb as hard as you could otherwise. Women aren't as strong as men. Josune was an anomoly.

Women aren't as strong as men. Josune was an anomoly.

fail. more routes in does not mean a better day. besides, this is coming from a guy that climbs with his wife all the time. Nothing wrong with that, but it means you don't climb as hard as you could otherwise. Women aren't as strong as men. Josune was an anomoly.

I would agree with that: anything trad over 5.8/5.9 if it is not a 4 star classic, otherwise over 5.10b or so; for sport (in my experience) over 5.10c should do it.

Instead of "harder" you could insert "bolder" "more run out" "chossy" "less than 2 stars in the guidebook", especially for trad climbs.

Could you explain? What drama, headache and compromise are you talking about (especially at a sport crag)? I'm not saying you should not climb with who you want to climb with, but I have a good friend / regular crag partner who climbs 5.13/14, and I belay him on what he wants to climb and he on what I'd like to climb at crags where a 5.10 is right next to (or a few yards down from) the harder climbs he likes. Ditto at trad crags like Donner summit where you have a 5.10 chimney next to (you can stand an belay in the same spot for both) a 5.12d thin finger crack.


What do 5.12 and clusterfuck-free have to do with each other? I have alpine partners who climb no harder than 5.8 trad who are lightyears more experienced with ropecraft and moving over rock than some 5.12 gym / crag climbers I know.

degaine, where are these magic crags with quality 5.10s and 5.12/13s next to each other?

Even at a place like the RRG with tons of quality routes at these grades you'll have to leave the crag you're climbing at and head to another to get a good mix of both.

I am also interested in how your area has such a vastly different climbing culture too. I have had the chance to travel and climb at quite a few big areas withing North America and have not found the culture to be vastly different from area to area.

Well, you, camhead, lena-chita have stated in so many words that the 5.10 climber creates clusterfucks, and in my experience at every place that I have ever climbed, this is not the case.

The 5.10 climber (someone who can really climb 5.10 on lead – trad or sport) in Northern California is certainly not the incompetent boob that according to you three the 5.10 climber in the east appears to be.

one 5.10 climber at a time can be manageable- it's the whole crag of "5.10" climbers that congregate where there are 5.10s that is the problem.

oh please. climbing 5.10 is just not that hard. not so hard that there aren't high school and college kids that can send it (or, more relevant to the discussion of clusterfuckery, bolt to bolt the routes) on their very first trip outside.

my first sport route at 17 was 5.9. my second was a 5.10. i onsited them both at the NRG, where 5.10 *is* a bit less of a gumby grade than at the red.

the entry fee to a 5.10 crag is not, as you keep trying to suggest, being a solid 5.10 leader.

it's being able to get ONE person in your party to the top in some fashion so they can set the route up. this tendency to be in big parties and to toprope makes a 5.10 crag with x number of people and y number of routes more crowded and more frustrating than a 5.12 crag with x people and y routes because routes turn over faster.

[it's the whole crag of "5.10" climbers that congregate where there are 5.10s that is the problem.

oh please. climbing 5.10 is just not that hard.

my first sport route at 17 was 5.9. my second was a 5.10. i onsited them both at the NRG, where 5.10 *is* a bit less of a gumby grade than at the red.

Not really applicable. Weren't you a gym rat for a while before you wandered out into the real world?

Got it, so it’s groups setting up camp on popular routes at a popular crag that is the problem, and where you climb those routes are primarily in the 5.10 range whereas the 5.12 climbs see little crowds and thus it’s more advantageous (and fun) to be a 5.12 climber.

yeah, that's not the case. the .12s at the red probably see 80% or more of the traffic of the 10s in a lot of places. the difference being that people are LEADING the 12's, and are happy to let you work in. as lena said "sure, climb on my draws!" or even "oh hey climb on our rope- so and so wants to top rope it but we're not using it right the second so go ahead."

maybe degain's crags are just generally less crowded. i accept that that would make a huge difference. but no, i don't believe that everybody climbing 5.10 at his crags (especially sport!) are experienced and cluster-free.

Sure, I’ve seen my fair share of clusterfucks, mostly watching people daddle on multi-pitch trad climbs in over their head, but where I climb there just aren’t the marauding groups of 5.10 clusterfuckers out to ruin the experience of anyone who climbs less than 5.12 as you seem to claim.

you win the award for missing the point.

I don't see how, but I'm all ears if you're willing to explain.

the red in particular, but also many other places that are moderately well known, attracts organized and semi-organized groups of people. college outdoors clubs, spring breakers, fall breakers, summer breakers.


and yes, benkenobi, a lot of people are really nice. and the longer they've been climbing, they more they "get it" with route sharing, and the nicer they tend to be. and the vast majority of the time, there are no clusterfucks anywhere, because too many clusterfucks means somebody gets hurt. but where there are, they tend tend to be with groups of 5.10 climbers. i've certainly never had anyone tell me there is 1 more person only to sling 5 more people onto the flail-TR on a 5.12.

i've been trying, and you've been deliberately twisting everything i've said.

it's certainly not that there are malicious, marauding groups of people trying to ruin other people's days. mostly it's just that you say people at 5.10 crags are 5.10 climbers, and obtusely refuse to recognize the reality that a lot of people are on 5.10s that are not solid 5.10 leaders.

I have moved beyond climbing with and catering to 5.10 climbers, and all the drama, headache, and compromise that accompanies that.

a lot of people who are on 5.10s are not solid 5.10 climbers. or the group only contains one solid 5.10 climber. the red in particular, but also many other places that are moderately well known, attracts organized and semi-organized groups of people. college outdoors clubs, spring breakers, fall breakers, summer breakers.

and the warm-up crags, and the crags that have multiple climbs in the range of those people tend to be cluster fucks. like i said, there are plenty of college groups that have one guy or one girl that can clip the chains on some 5.10s, barely. or they try and top rope on the draws side of a half-lead route (stopped people from doing this on at least two occasions) they top rope through the anchors, they hang for half an hour when they are people patently waiting, they eat lunch with the rope hanging. or the group that gets there first puts up all 4 or 5 warmups. or they send somebody up to clean the route that doesn't know how to clean. or to tie their knot. all of these things i have seen.

I actually never obtusely refused to recognize that there are people on 5.10s who are not solid 5.10 climbers. In my initial post I responded to this statement :


I understood 5.10 climbers to be just that, 5.10 climbers, not the category of people who jump on 5.10s but are not solid leading at the grade.

Why can’t you just get that where I climb or have climbed (apparently in places that you have not) this is not at all commonplace?

I climb 5.10 at the Gunks. I rarely see anyone on these routes (with a few exceptions), let alone anyone clusterf@%*ing them.

What's my point? I don't know, but this whole thread is idiotic. Where I climb, solid 5.10 climbers are not cfing anything.

Josh

sooo... you're agreeing with me? I think you are.

At the Red, 5.10 climbers are the clusterfucks. At the Gunks, they are not.

Actually, I would be willing to bet that there is a higher proportion of RRG regulars that climb 5.12 sport than Gunks regulars who climb 5.10.

(fires shot across the bow)
Why are you guys so weak out there?

I would bet money that 9 out of 10 climbers that climb 5.12 sport could not climb 5.10 at the Gunks. Why you ask? Because they would be spending their whole day in the Uberfall bathroom after soiling themselves.

this is kerrect.



I would bet money that 9 out of 10 climbers that climb 5.12 sport could not climb 5.10 at the Gunks. Why you ask? Because they would be spending their whole day in the Uberfall bathroom after soiling themselves.

Josh

to someone who gives excellent second, no less.

I don't think camhead has yet clipped the anchors of something i couldn't follow.

I just thought I would bump this thread after having a great memorial day weekend at the Gunks. Yeah, you heard me, busiest weekend of the year, at the most crowded crag in the East, probably in the nation.

How does this relate to the topic at hand? Well, first, it has nothing to do with 5.12. There were endless lines on nearly every moderate route. However, everything 5.10a and over was open! We did not wait in line for one single route; we got plenty of climbing in and had a great time.

Once again, it's a reason to climb harder: fewer clusterfucks, better climbing experiences.

foreshadowing?

shaddup.