So I'm finally making the plunge and purchasing my very own ice tools. I've pretty well narrowed it down to the above three: Petzl Nomics, the new BD Fusions, and the Petzl Quark, though I'm down for other suggestions.
I've used a variety of tools over the past couple of seasons, including old Charlet Pulsars, Petzl Nomics, Petzl Quarks. I haven't climbed anything harder than WI 3 to date, though I fully intend on pushing that a lot this winter. I'm also looking at getting into mixed as well.
I'm basically looking for a tool that will do well at my current level, but that will really excel at harder routes once I progress. It's a big investment, so I want to be happy with these things for years to come.
Leashless is a MUST. The option of a leash is nice, but I think i'll be leashless 90% of the time if given the choice.
I like wrist flick, as opposed to arm chops. I tend to like precision more than brute force. This is also why none of the more "normal" BD tools are in this list. I don't like the way they swing at all.
Hammer option is nice, but I'm not sure it's necessary
It's like when you flip a coin to decide between chocolate and vanilla. When you get flipped vanilla, you know you really wanted chocolate all along anyway.
i do ice all grades and alpine style mixed I love the Quarks and the hammers are great for Pitons. My husband loves his Nomics and they are awesome for those steep roofy type mixed climbs compared to the Quarks so i guess it depends on what type of climbing you see your self doing.
i do ice all grades and alpine style mixed I love the Quarks and the hammers are great for Pitons. My husband loves his Nomics and they are awesome for those steep roofy type mixed climbs compared to the Quarks so i guess it depends on what type of climbing you see your self doing.
Not being able to pound with the Nomics in most certainly one of their biggest problems, but I don't think you can get a decent hammer for the new BD tools either (someone can correct me if I'm wrong).
The great thing about pure leashless is how little the pick shifts from one hand position to the other when climbing steep. Otherwise, if you've just doing pure basic ice other tools used leashless will do you just as well.
i do ice all grades and alpine style mixed I love the Quarks and the hammers are great for Pitons. My husband loves his Nomics and they are awesome for those steep roofy type mixed climbs compared to the Quarks so i guess it depends on what type of climbing you see your self doing.
Not being able to pound with the Nomics in most certainly one of their biggest problems, but I don't think you can get a decent hammer for the new BD tools either (someone can correct me if I'm wrong).
The great thing about pure leashless is how little the pick shifts from one hand position to the other when climbing steep. Otherwise, if you've just doing pure basic ice other tools used leashless will do you just as well.
Nope, the mini hammer on the BD tool is fixed.
I'm thinking that the new BDs with a set of laser picks might be the way to go. I just haven't been able to see how they swing. Hopefully it will be similar to the Nomics.
BD picks are absolutely terrible in comparision with Petzl/Charlet, so I'd discount the Fusions right from the start, personally.
I have both Quarks and Nomics, and unless I'll be pounding pins, the Quarks stay home.
So, if you'll have a single set of tools, IMO, if you place pins with any regularity, I'd go with the Quarks. If you don't place pins, the Nomics all the way.
So this is assuming that you'll only be climbing waterfall ice?? Everyone love the nomics, but you'll be restricted to waterfall....BD Vipers are a great leashless tool, well priced and you can use in the mountains. I'd feel a little uncomforatable climbing anything that might neccesitate some plunging.
Just a thought, if you're going to sprend big $$, I'd get a tool that is more well rounded.
well, the Fusions are a drytool specialty if i recall(i'm sure the updated ones carry on that tradition) and the nomics blow on anything less than vertical so since you climb WI3 at the moment, go with the quarks. They give more flexibility over the entire grade spectrum from my experience.
I've climbed with both BD and Petzl tools and the winner is... Grivel. Especially for both ice and mixed climbing. But if you insist on these two brands definitely go for Petzl.
Shoo - I just picked up the Reactors...leashless-allaround tool and pretty cheap.
Huh. I've never really come across that one. Looks to be pretty much exactly what I'm looking for in general. I'll have to run by a shop to see how they swing.
Ok all you who voted for the new fusion lets here why its such a great tool. I am curious. I say the nomics due to they climb everything well and yes I climb with them in the Alpine. Not having an adze or hammer has not been a big problem. Most of the time I have a shovel for digging caves or chopping ledges.
I've got the BD Vipers, they are sick tools. I've used the Cobras, but like the Vipers better. Though these are the old design, I dunno too much about the new ones...
Though I have not climbed with them, I love the feel of the Grivel X Monsters, I'll probably pick up a pair when I have some extra cash laying around. They are pretty cheap too.
I just called Rock and Snow, and they said they are only ordering from Grivel once a year now. Since Grivel dropped it's US market, it may become harder to get replacement parts in the future, and the prices could see an increase as well. Just something to think about...
I just called Rock and Snow, and they said they are only ordering from Grivel once a year now. Since Grivel dropped it's US market, it may become harder to get replacement parts in the future, and the prices could see an increase as well. Just something to think about...
Trust me on this- with Grivel you wont need replacement parts that frequent.
Nikmit. When i ran grivel machines I needed 2 sets of picks per year just like with every other system that i run. I will admit that the grivel picks do not break like the BD picks but they grind down and need replaceing just the same.. Don't get hung up on the brand though. just get good with whatever tool you have. Any modern tool with ergo grips and knuckle guard hooks is going to do the trick. You may need to adjust the weight. I feel that the reactors and new vipers climb better with the old heavier hammers on them etc.
I'd go Quarks. BUT I'd also say that if you plan on doing mixed you'll probably end up with two sets of tools.
This will all depend on the type of ice you are climbing - single pitch vs. multi-pitch.
I have: Both the Nomics and the Quarks, and the new BD Cobras.
Generally I climb with the Nomic on single pitch ice and mixed, Quarks with leash for multi-pitch ice and harder (WI4-5) Ice. The reason is that I like the leash, it helps me feel secure, and on multi-pitch. A dropped tool on lead would be a big problem.
The BD cobras were bought for my wife. She liked them because they are light. I have climbed on them a few times. Not a huge fan. I find I get them stuck way too often...
One idea I've been tossing around is getting the Fusions with a pair of laser picks and a spinner leash (umbilical cord). That pretty much sets me for moderate to hard ice and mixed and multi-pitch. Doesn't do much for more alpine pursuits perhaps, but I can live with that.
One idea I've been tossing around is getting the Fusions with a pair of laser picks and a spinner leash (umbilical cord). That pretty much sets me for moderate to hard ice and mixed and multi-pitch. Doesn't do much for more alpine pursuits perhaps, but I can live with that.
I'm not sure if you can actually. I know I couldn't... The alpine is where its at man!
The origional fusion climbed straight ice horribly but was a stellar mixed tool. I would want o know a lot more about the new fusion before i made that leap if i intedned to climb ice with them. Why not go the Reactor rout and save a bunch of mony and run them with the spinner teather?
The origional fusion climbed straight ice horribly but was a stellar mixed tool. I would want o know a lot more about the new fusion before i made that leap if i intedned to climb ice with them. Why not go the Reactor rout and save a bunch of mony and run them with the spinner teather?
And that was the other option I was debating.
Edit: goddammit this shit is hard!
(This post was edited by shoo on Nov 15, 2009, 4:51 PM)
One idea I've been tossing around is getting the Fusions with a pair of laser picks and a spinner leash (umbilical cord). That pretty much sets me for moderate to hard ice and mixed and multi-pitch. Doesn't do much for more alpine pursuits perhaps, but I can live with that.
I'm not sure if you can actually. I know I couldn't... The alpine is where its at man!
He's got a point.
The alpine IS where it's at...
(This post was edited by joeforte on Nov 16, 2009, 12:54 AM)
This will be a bit off topic, given your narrow question (between just those three tools), but...
I'd give another vote for a more well-rounded tool. If you are climbing WI3, you are not going to be "held back" anytime soon by something like the BD Vipers (they've been fine for me up to WI5 and M8).
Unless you want to purchase a 'quiver' of ice tools for every possible different situation, a good solid all-arounder like the Vipers or Cobras could be just the ticket.
Lots of climbing gear advertising, like all advertising, is just hype. It's better to just try tools and go with what feels good in your hand. Since it seems like you have tried this with the Vipers/Cobras, perhaps they are not for you. But given your current climbing level and the fact that most good tools will be fine up to a pretty respectable level of climbing, I might consider a less specialized tool if I were you.
Nikmit. When i ran grivel machines I needed 2 sets of picks per year just like with every other system that i run. I will admit that the grivel picks do not break like the BD picks but they grind down and need replacing just the same.
I'm not hung up with the brand- I hate Grivel's customer service in EU, but my partner climb with Quarks with picks for mixed climbing, and by the time I had to replace the picks on my Taa k oon's he wore off the second pair of Quark's picks. I totally agree, that one have to climb with whatever he can find, I'm just saying that if I get the chance to choose I'll choose Grivel any time.
I have the new BD Vipers with Laser Picks and I don't like them. The tool is way too light - in hard ice I find myself making way too many swings to get a solid placement. I also dislike the Laser picks - I find they are difficult to clean due to the rounded pick shape.
I've tried both the Petzl Quark and the Nomic. IMO The Quark is a better tool for a beginner/intermediate climber (WI 3-4). It is much heftier than the Quarks and the BD tools and hence easier to place. In addition I find the Quarks much easier to clean than the BD's due to the pick shape. I find the BD laser picks stick way too often on plastic ice. I sometimes have to crank really hard just to remove the BD's, which increases the pump factor on steep ice.
The Quark is the best all-around tool on the market IMO - easy to place, easy to clean, has a leash option and a hammer/adze... what more could you want?
The Nomic is a lighter tool and is shaped differently so I found that the swing took a bit of getting used to. The nomic also comes with the Astro pick which is optimized for mixed climbing, albeit only slightly different from the Cascade pick. You could fork out an extra $100 for the Cascade picks (standard on the Quarks) which are better for pure ice. The Nomic is hands down the better tool for mixed climbing but I'd say from my personal experience that the Quark is slightly better for pure ice.
Shoo - My Reactors came in the mail last night, I'm pretty excited. I'll probably end up getting a set of titan picks and a spinner tether. I can bring the tools to MR if you want to check them out.
There is a lot of talk about using two different tools and I don't feel like you need to. If you think you will go the mixed route the nomics are perfect and you can climb with the nomics on vert ice as well. I have Quarks, Cobras, Vipers, and nomics and always use nomics. Once you learn how to swing the tool you realize that it is great for all levels of ice and mixed. All you have to do is switch the picks out and you have a very versatile tool. The tool is great you get a huge jug to hang on to. I even use the nomics in the alpine if its at all technical, although if I am going super light I take my atzars. Here are some things to think about: If you are not comfortable on steep ice and want a leash the quarks are nice but you can also add a leash to the nomics. The nomics don't plunge well so if you are not really comfortable on steep snow the other tools work well. If on mixed I feel like the shape of the cobra/viper climb better than the quark. The viper is nice because you can torque it without having to worry about the shaft getting beat up. So bottom line is all the tools are great tools and you so you need to pick what feels good to you. Just don't feel like the nomic is only for mixed. In my opinion it climbs steep ice better than anything. It is so well balanced you can work your hands up the shaft with little shift of the pick which is great on mixed or steep thin ice. My other tools usually get used by my clients and if I teach someone who wants to climb leashless I always use the nomic.
(This post was edited by mattb1921 on Nov 18, 2009, 5:05 PM)
includes pics of fusion over layed on nomic and visa versa.
I have the reactors, I don't ice climb very much or very well but I asked Colin Haley about them a couple of years ago and he said they were the best verticle ice tool he had used and he used them on the Marsigny-Parkin/West Ridge link up on cerro torre.
Shoo - My Reactors came in the mail last night, I'm pretty excited. I'll probably end up getting a set of titan picks and a spinner tether. I can bring the tools to MR if you want to check them out.
Hells yes. I'll be there tomorrow and Friday this week, and almost always on Tues and Thurs.
Also, why the titan pick?
I've been holding off at looking at prices until now. I'm not going to get specific about what the exact prices are, but this may help a little. And yes, I made an excel chart to determine exactly what I'm looking for.
New here so hello all. Im not crazy about the Awax design - no offence meant but they curve in a linear fasion, An excellent design for the mountains and easier grades. I feel the shape does not reach well over technical ground - I climbed on the similarly designed DMM preditors for 5 years and at the time it seemed a whole new world. But weve moved on. There seems a lot of issue over design end use of a matched pair of tools. Having re-read that line it seems silly, however what I mean to say is that I climb with 3 tools. My original Charlet strait shaft with hammer. If Im craging on technical terrain then its my nomics all the way, if not then its 3 tools. I would say the Nomics are for me and almost everyone I climb with the best pure hard ice/mixed tool available but limited under say 80 degrees. I agree the grivels are excellent and the monsters are very affordable if you can find them. Ive done a lot of very steep stuff on monsters, and I may even buy a set of monster X's for my wife (one she has had our 1st baby). BD axes have always felt like a bit of a compromise to me, just my opinion. Whatever you get enjoy!!!
Shoo - My Reactors came in the mail last night, I'm pretty excited. I'll probably end up getting a set of titan picks and a spinner tether. I can bring the tools to MR if you want to check them out.
Hells yes. I'll be there tomorrow and Friday this week, and almost always on Tues and Thurs.
Also, why the titan pick?
I've been holding off at looking at prices until now. I'm not going to get specific about what the exact prices are, but this may help a little. And yes, I made an excel chart to determine exactly what I'm looking for.
Price pretty well takes the Nomics and above out of the running for me. I'm not really considering the Vipers as I don't like their swing.
So final showdown question: Are the new Fusions worth the ~47% increase in price over the Reactors?
Titan picks are not great for waterfall ice. They're a little too burly, especially on crap ice, and often require a few swings to get a good set. They are better suited for mixed
I just bought a PAIR of Anaconda cup light tools from Sierra Trading Post for $275! They normally retail for around $275 A PIECE. I saw the sale and bought them due to money constraints, but later realized that they are actually a really nice tool. All the reviews I've read about them have been positive as well.
The picks can be changed without tools, which is a great design. They weight in at 515 grams, which is super light, but if you want more weight you can add hammer or adze to bump them up to a little over 600g. They also come with a removable trigger, and use FORGED picks, which I think is really important. They have plenty of clearance, a really comfortable pinky rest (it doesn't look that great in pics) and seem like they should still plunge fairly well. I think they are a very well built, versatile tool for the price.
What do you guvs feel about using Grivel Monster or similar tools for alpine routes or easier iceclimbing? There has been a couple of posts on a swedish forum about that
Why not go with the X Monster, which is made for ice climbing? Rather than the Monster, which is made specifically for dry tooling, and maybe a bit of mixed climbing.
They both would work on easy ice (though it might be a pain using the dry tool specific Monster). The X Monster would definitely be possible to use for alpine routes. Though it is more tailored to pure ice, I have heard of people using it in the alpine, and it seemed to do ok.
X Monster
Original Monster, probably not so good for what you want.
Why not go with the X Monster, which is made for ice climbing? Rather than the Monster, which is made specifically for dry tooling, and maybe a bit of mixed climbing.
They both would work on easy ice (though it might be a pain using the dry tool specific Monster). The X Monster would definitely be possible to use for alpine routes. Though it is more tailored to pure ice, I have heard of people using it in the alpine, and it seemed to do ok.
X Monster [image]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:cCZpNQZenxyBUM:http://www.trailspace.com/out/images/aHR0cDovL3M3b25kZW1hbmQxLnNjZW5lNy5jb20vaXMvaW1hZ2UvTW9vc2VqYXdNQi8xMDAyMTcyMF96bT8kcHJvZHVjdDQ3NSQ%3D[/image]
Original Monster, probably not so good for what you want. [image]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:9IOtfLr8hW9nbM:http://www.mountainmagic.com/equipment/climbing/climbing-section-item/icetool/icetool-image-jpg/grivel-monster.jpg[/image]
Edvin, the X-monster climbs ice very well. IN fact, they are one of the few tools I would consider replacing my takoons with... but I'm not giving up my taaks yet. The x-monsters perform great on ice and mixed. where they do require extra effort on is in alpine terrain, ie. plunging. That said, for the price, you would be hard pressed to find another tool with the same high end performance all round AND durability.
A lot of effort has been placed on lighter tools in recent years. Light is right only to a point. A lot of new ice tools do not have the head weight that grivel has. Use a tool that works for you, not a tool that you have to work hard at getting sticks. I've had a lot of people give me a hard time over my "heavy" grivel tools... the same people ask me why it looks like I put so little effort into swinging and still get great sticks in the ice.
What do you guvs feel about using Grivel Monster or similar tools for alpine routes or easier iceclimbing? There has been a couple of posts on a swedish forum about that
What do you guvs feel about using Grivel Monster or similar tools for alpine routes or easier iceclimbing? There has been a couple of posts on a swedish forum about that
I know a lot of folks are putting old style hammers on th new BD toos to get the correct head wight. Most people i know who run Nomics use the additional head weights,
One thing that nobody seems to be talking about with potentially purchasing new ice tools is the size of the grip. Depending on whether or not you have big or small hands (and how your hands fit on a large or small gripped tool) can make a significant difference in how pumped you get while climbing a pitch. I know that folks add tape to smaller grips to make them bigger, but it's worth considering all the same.
It seems that the BD tools have larger grips (for bigger hands), and the Nomics and the Grivel Quantum Techs have grips more suited for smaller hands. The Quarks seem to swing well for everybody. Like a million other people have mentioned, advice from other folks is only SO helpful in finding the right set of tools. At some point, just get what swings well for you and go with that.
I finally made the order: new BD fusions with a spare pair of laser picks. I got a deal I couldn't possibly say no to, and put in the order pretty much immediately. Hopefully they come in before the ice does.
I'll let y'all know what I think after they get some pitches on them.
Unfortunately, I called to see where they were today, and they're backordered until Jan 1. Bastards! The good news is I can probably borrow/share a pair of Quarks until then.
I've been keeping up on the conditions around here/ Doesn't look like much is going to be in by this weekend, but we'll see.
Well I don't agree w the Nomic blows on lower angle ice and as for a hammer well I have been carrying a small 3rd tool that has a streight shaft and pounds pins way better than any bent shaft tool out there
I would much rather have a servicable spike on the Nomic rather than a hammer and realy who pounds pins that much on a mixed climb anyway and with the exception of a few mixed climbs where I could have cammed a hammer I never realy needed /wanted one we always found a way to get by.
I've used the new Reactors for a few pitches the lower shaft is a good Nomic knock off w a spike and except for the fact that I can't stand the piss poor quality of the new black garbage gear and the silly gay green/ black w/silver they might be a choice for someone who can put up with the poor quality of there picks as well as the totaly bozo the clown color scheme on the Reactor.I found the swing weight on the Reactor to be too light .
Well I don't agree w the Nomic blows on lower angle ice and as for a hammer well I have been carrying a small 3rd tool that has a streight shaft and pounds pins way better than any bent shaft tool out there
I would much rather have a servicable spike on the Nomic rather than a hammer and realy who pounds pins that much on a mixed climb anyway and with the exception of a few mixed climbs where I could have cammed a hammer I never realy needed /wanted one we always found a way to get by.
I've used the new Reactors for a few pitches the lower shaft is a good Nomic knock off w a spike and except for the fact that I can't stand the piss poor quality of the new black garbage gear and the silly gay green/ black w/silver they might be a choice for someone who can put up with the poor quality of there picks as well as the totaly bozo the clown color scheme on the Reactor.I found the swing weight on the Reactor to be too light .
In reply to:
Wow, that's an impressive post.
Please reply back after you actually spend some time drytooling please.
I like both the newest Fusion and the Nomic for mixed. Love the Nomic with weights and Cascade picks on steep ice. Also used the Nomic on a bunch of lower angled alpine stuff....works great.
Hear tell the older Fusion wasn't all that great on ice. But never used one. No one questions the original Fusion on mixed. Hearing the same about ice from some users on the newest Fusion as well. But not been my experience and been using them since Nov.
(This post was edited by daneburns on Dec 27, 2009, 6:07 PM)
Shoo - I just picked up the Reactors...leashless-allaround tool and pretty cheap.
Win.
I bought a pair of Reactors on a discount last february. prior to that I was using a pair of relatively straight-shaft Camp Alpaxes. the reactors swing pretty well, but so far the best difference is that with the offset handles, I'm not punching the ice every swing.
it has been my - limited, have only climbed ice for 2 seasons - experience, that good technique with whatever tool you have, is more important than the brand or style of tool. if your technique sucks, you'll bouncing picks and smashing off dinnerplates 75% of your swings. so far, I'm down to 50% ;-)
I also took them up a solo alpine ascent last february, and they worked pretty well in "cane" mode, while frenching up the snowfields.
(This post was edited by robbovius on Jan 11, 2010, 3:45 PM)
I'm sure there's a detailed review of the 2010 Outdoor Retailer show somewhere on the internet, but for what it's worth, it looks like Petzl is redoing its tools for next winter.
The Nomic looks almost exactly the same, except they've heard the feedback and provided an optional hammer attachment. Much bigger than the one on the BD Fusion...
They've revamped the Quark for next year. The geometry of the tool looks to be exactly the same, but they've integrated a movable rest for the upper hand (very similar to the BD strike attachment, except that it can be moved). As with all Petzl tools, this one looked awesome - solid, beefy, well balanced, very versatile, etc. I think I also remember it having a clippable spike, but I'm not positive on that...
Lastly, it looks like they're bringing the Ergo back, which seems odd to me. I was under the impression that the Nomic was going to be their high end mixed tool, but if you can imagine it, the new Ergo is even more radically angled, with multiple hand rests along the upper shaft of the tool. Just sitting on their display, the thing looked a bit ridiculous. However, the guy there said that somebody took it out on some local ice (Great White Icicle no doubt...) and it actually climbs ice pretty well. (What was he going to say, that it sucks on ice and that nobody should buy it? Still...)
I should have taken some photos of these things. Petzl is also putting out two new lightweight carabiners that have just a single wire stem for the gate, with no nose to catch on bolts or gear or whatever. Petzl claims them to be the lightest full strength 'biner on the market, but I'm sure CAMP or some other company will just make things smaller and lighter...
Nothing else from the climbing section of the show really stood out to me as being anything all that different. BD, Grivel, Metolius, etc. all seemed to have nothing much new.
I'm sure there's a detailed review of the 2010 Outdoor Retailer show somewhere on the internet, but for what it's worth, it looks like Petzl is redoing its tools for next winter.
The Nomic looks almost exactly the same, except they've heard the feedback and provided an optional hammer attachment. Much bigger than the one on the BD Fusion...
They've revamped the Quark for next year. The geometry of the tool looks to be exactly the same, but they've integrated a movable rest for the upper hand (very similar to the BD strike attachment, except that it can be moved). As with all Petzl tools, this one looked awesome - solid, beefy, well balanced, very versatile, etc. I think I also remember it having a clippable spike, but I'm not positive on that...
Lastly, it looks like they're bringing the Ergo back, which seems odd to me. I was under the impression that the Nomic was going to be their high end mixed tool, but if you can imagine it, the new Ergo is even more radically angled, with multiple hand rests along the upper shaft of the tool. Just sitting on their display, the thing looked a bit ridiculous. However, the guy there said that somebody took it out on some local ice (Great White Icicle no doubt...) and it actually climbs ice pretty well. (What was he going to say, that it sucks on ice and that nobody should buy it? Still...)
I should have taken some photos of these things. Petzl is also putting out two new lightweight carabiners that have just a single wire stem for the gate, with no nose to catch on bolts or gear or whatever. Petzl claims them to be the lightest full strength 'biner on the market, but I'm sure CAMP or some other company will just make things smaller and lighter...
Nothing else from the climbing section of the show really stood out to me as being anything all that different. BD, Grivel, Metolius, etc. all seemed to have nothing much new.
i saw a side by side of the new and old quarks and the pick design is different so the old cascade picks will not fit on the new quarks (at least they look like that is the case, time will tell)
12 /
34%
Especially for both ice and mixed climbing. But if you insist on these two brands definitely go for Petzl. 
haha, no seriously, thanks for the link, found them quite cheap over here too. 
