So.....what is everyone's take on using 9/16 pmi webbing...tying a water knot with 2'' of slack on each side...and then making a trad draw out of it?

I've been doing this method for a long time mostly because it's really cheap and the guide that taught me to lead climb did it also (he was really old school)

A bit bulky, but nothing wrong from a safety point of view. Sometime I use slings when I sport climb, doesn't really matter to me.

One advantage of knotted slings on trad routes is you can untie them and use them for various things.

On sale, 3.99 biner

http://www.omegapac.com/product151.html

3.35, 3.65 dogbones

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/quickdraw_slings.html

that's a $11.63 home made quickdraw...not too shabby.

even better...

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667037&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328

10.95

EVEN BETTER!

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3667035&cp=3677347.11360113.3688328

13.95, on sale for 9.98

Believe it or not, when it comes to buying equipment that your life depends on, there are actually factors to consider besides price.

Jay

Believe it or not, when it comes to buying equipment that your life depends on, there are actually factors to consider besides price.

Jay

The “25 kN closed/7 kN Open/8 kN Minor” rating on the Omega biners are pretty much the standard specs. And the draw slings are 22 kN.

And I’m actually using the Omega/Metolious “homemade” draws and they work just fine. Low cost, check. Functioning, check. What am I missing???

The “25 kN closed/7 kN Open/8 kN Minor” rating on the Omega biners are pretty much the standard specs.

The “25 kN closed/7 kN Open/8 kN Minor” rating on the Omega biners are pretty much the standard specs. And the draw slings are 22 kN.

And I’m actually using the Omega/Metolious “homemade” draws and they work just fine. Low cost, check. Functioning, check. What am I missing???

Standard? The biners on all of my draws have open-gate strength ratings of 9.5–10 kN.

Jay

mine are better. and I'm sure you're buying them right now. you're welcome.

Grow up.

Should I just suck it up and buy sewn webbing like the rest of the world?

For a moment it looked like you were flexing about who had the best gear. Well who cares.. my dads bigger than yours.

I agree, who cares.

but there's always somebody

And there’s nothing more annoying than somebody who is a know-it-all, always out to “one-up” you.

I agree, who cares.

but there's always somebody

And there’s nothing more annoying than somebody who is a know-it-all, always out to “one-up” you.

Idiot.

*plonk*

I don't see the strength rating on PMI 9/16 webbing http://shop.pmirope.com/...index.aspx?pageID=25, but the Bluewater 9/16 Climb spec rates to 2200 ft lbs brand new. http://www.mountaingear.com/...G/item/614001/N/1049. Assuming that the CMC Rope Rescue Manual which claims a 36% strength reduction for a water knot in webbing is accurate, you have a strength of 1408lbs when your tied webbing is brand new and dry. . . .

Maybe Jay can check my math up there.

That might work if you tied the knot right before starting up the climb and you took no falls on the previous pitches. Not something I would count on...

I am far from being an idiot.

Hahhahaha. Why do I feel like I have to read this in a pompous British voice?

Quoted for Jay's enjoyment.

Believe it or not, when it comes to buying equipment that your life depends on, there are actually factors to consider besides price.

Jay

That is certainly true.

But in this context mass produced slings like the Mammut Contact or quickdraw dogbones are usually less bulky, lighter and stronger so therefore the only major points in favour of hand tieing your own slings for your quick draws is that on average they will be cheaper and slightly more durable due to the added bulk.

Unless of course someone gets a kick out of making their own gear, which is fair enough.

Thanks.

"Far from being an idiot" in which direction, I wonder.

That is certainly true.

But in this context mass produced slings like the Mammut Contact or quickdraw dogbones are usually less bulky, lighter and stronger so therefore the only major points in favour of hand tieing your own slings for your quick draws is that on average they will be cheaper and slightly more durable due to the added bulk.

Unless of course someone gets a kick out of making their own gear, which is fair enough.

To clarify, in my comment above I was not criticizing tied slings, but cheap, bottom-of-the-line biners; in particular, because of their 7-kN open-gate strength.

Jay

I am far from being an idiot.

I’m pretty sure the good people at Black Diamond and Omega Pacific aren’t out to kill me, even though they sold me biners with a 7 or kN open gate. I’m pretty sure most of us have and use Black Diamond biners with 7 kN open gate strength. You know, your “cheap, bottom-of-the-line biners”. And I’m pretty sure we’ve climbed using them and are alive and well on account of their strength and reliability.

I have a list of all my climbing gear. The list includes the date of purchase as well as all the specs.

Since the subject was HOMEMADE QUICKDRAWS, I thought I could make a positive contribution…the good deal I found on biners/dogbones and throw in a couple of discount quick draws I found on EMS. I’m under the impression that an actual quickdraw is better than making one out of a knotted sling/webbing/cord or whatever. Do you and I’ll do me…and if you like how I did it, I’m glad to have helped.

But then the clouds got dark, the thunder roared, and all the little scared animals in the forest ran for cover…here comes Captain I Know Better Than You. The frickin’ Osama of rockclimbing.com looking to crash a plane into forum.

Anyway…

Up until purchasing the Omega biners, I only had BD biners. All my Black Diamond biners have an open gate around 7-8 kN…locking, wire, and bent gates. The average price is around $10 per biner. The Omega biner was originally $10.35, on sale for $3.99. Key word- “on sale”. I don’t know about you guys but I go shopping during sales, clip coupons, and pay for my gas with cash instead of debit to save the extra .10 a gallon.

I’m pretty sure the good people at Black Diamond and Omega Pacific aren’t out to kill me, even though they sold me biners with a 7 or kN open gate. I’m pretty sure most of us have and use Black Diamond biners with 7 kN open gate strength. You know, your “cheap, bottom-of-the-line biners”. And I’m pretty sure we’ve climbed using them and are alive and well on account of their strength and reliability.

Enjoy, climb safe…have a nice day. Be excellent to each other.

While we’re at it…who here is driving a Volvo XC60? I mean, driving is WAY more dangerous than climbing. You guys got the roll cage and helmet in that bad boy? It’s tit-for-tat all day with what is safe, safer, safest- functioning, functional, feng shui. A biner with a 7 kN open gate is like climbing with a paper clip? BD and Omega are actually out to kill you???

Looking at the fall force calculator on http://www.myoan.net/climbart/climbforcecal.html me falling 20 feet from last anchor would generate a little over 4 kN, Fall Factor 1.10. That’s still under 7 kN. And, that’s falling with the gate open. You got another calculator, put up the link and I’m more than happy to recalculate the numbers. And by the way…I have NO interest in climbing 20 feet over an anchor, thank you very much. So, how we doing? Am I okay? Did I still get the wrong one?

Yes, that’s real and true…gates can open, and falls can generate several kNs. I am in complete agreement with you. And, I am in complete agreement that I am responsible for my own safety. At the end of the day, I'm trying to go home in one peice.

Well first of all you are using an force calculator that is completely wrong. See this thread on the discussion http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ew+Flat+Mode#2324969 It is actually fairly easy to generate forces in excess of 7kn. If you instead use JT's force calculator(i know, heresy) http://jt512.dyndns.org/impactcalc.html a factor 1 fall with only a 160lb climber and a 9.1kn impact force(mammut infinity) you generate over 11kn on the top piece.

Wrong calculator? Ok, my mistake.

11 kN you say? is there a biner with an open-gate strenght of 11 kN?

That was for your factor 1 fall. No open gate biner is going to survive a factor 1 fall most likely. A factor 0.4 fall generates ~7-8kn and is a much more common fall. In that case a 7kn will likely fail if open. It is up to you if that is acceptable. In sport climbing I prefer to not have to worry about small falls and worry about my gear. 8-10kn open gate strength biners mitigate this risk somewhat. My only point is that it is a very real possibility that biners fail in common climbing scenarios. If you want to bury your head in the sand that is your prerogative.

I'm listening, and you're making sense...really, and it's appreciated.

For now, at my current level of climbing, I think I'm well protected. In the future, I can see why I would need stronger biners on my draws.

Do you generate harder falls when you climb harder?

climbing 20 feet above my last anchor, putting myself in high fall factor situations, etc.

I climb for fun. Putting myself in those situations isn't fun. I'm not at the point where I need to be climbing like that.

For simplicity sake, since lots of you are jumping on Jay's "open strength rating" and crucifying this guy who isnt worried about an open gate strength of 7kN (which he shouldn't be)...

Can anyone tell me at least one case where an open gate biner broke catastrophically, causing total failure of the biner, and resulted in the rope catch on the next piece/clip below?? I'm all ears on this one. First sell me that in the real world an open gate strength biner has failed on people. Then, sell me the reality that a 9kN open gate strength is "enough" to not worry about compared to a 7kN open gate strength. I'm genuinely asking for this info of you that are big proponents of this; I've never seen any real-world evidence.


Might I just add that there are many small cams and nuts on the market only rated to 4kN that repeatedly hold whipper after whipper? Food for thought.

Analysis:
This accident resulted from a series of combined incidents. Kropp was relatively inexperienced at placing natural gear and, though a powerful athlete, was at his lead limit. The fact that the top cam pulled indicates that it was either placed incorrectly or walked to an insecure position, which is possible since he clipped all of his protection with short, stiff quickdraws. Another scenario is that Kropp dislodged the piece by himself by kicking it with his foot as he climbed past it. Regardless, experienced natural-gear leaders are able to get solid protection at or near the same place Kropp's cam pulled.

Subsequent studies of the broken carabiner revealed that the wire gate was not distressed; in other words the carabiner appears to have failed because its gate was open. While a gate-closed carabiner failure is rare, carabiners with their gates open lose as much as two-thirds of their strength, making failure in a fall a real possibility.

What caused the gate to open? It could have become wedged or constricted inside the crack because its short quick draw would not let it lie outside the crack. Jammed in the crack, the carabiner could have had its gate pinned open. The short, stiff quick draw could also have let the carabiner rotate into a cross-loading orientation, another extremely weak orientation.

While we’re at it…who here is driving a Volvo XC60? I mean, driving is WAY more dangerous than climbing. You guys got the roll cage and helmet in that bad boy? It’s tit-for-tat all day with what is safe, safer, safest- functioning, functional, feng shui. A biner with a 7 kN open gate is like climbing with a paper clip? BD and Omega are actually out to kill you???

Looking at the fall force calculator on http://www.myoan.net/climbart/climbforcecal.html me falling 20 feet from last anchor would generate a little over 4 kN, Fall Factor 1.10. That’s still under 7 kN. And, that’s falling with the gate open. You got another calculator, put up the link and I’m more than happy to recalculate the numbers. And by the way…I have NO interest in climbing 20 feet over an anchor, thank you very much. So, how we doing? Am I okay? Did I still get the wrong one?

Yes, that’s real and true…gates can open, and falls can generate several kNs. I am in complete agreement with you. And, I am in complete agreement that I am responsible for my own safety. At the end of the day, I'm trying to go home in one peice.

the big issue here is open gate strength. as we all know...the gate needs to be closed for the biner to function at its strongest rating. my 7kn open-gate biners are 23-27 kN closed. pretty bomber.

yes, the gates can come open. do we do our best to avoid that, of course! can it still happen regardless, yes.

so can a million other things.

Here is one example of a pretty famous climber who died from a carabiner failing with an open gate http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_GoranKropp.htm

I admit, that on occasion, I've used a locker on the end of a draw.

A real climbing fall has a maximum force of 5kN. This value is less than half of the maximum force
obtained with a guided mass. The difference is explained by the "elasticity" of the climber –the
body absorbs some fall energy. The falling climber is also free to move laterally and induce less
vibrations and a soft rope braking from the belayer. This maximum force does not create enough
vibrations to open the gate.


http://www.theuiaa.org/..._your_karabiners.pdf

obviously certain rc "experts" know better than the UIAA

they only do testing ... over and over and over again .. instead of keyboard commandoing over and over and over again ..

So how did that carabiner break? Magic?

possible explanation ... id rather take the word of people who test this stuff over and over agian for a living ... rather than someone who goes on this board, tries to be an "expert", and can never admit to being wrong ...

sorry you know who ... but the UIAA and BD testers beat you anyday of the week ...

from uiaa ...

Check that the karabiner is always loaded in the right way. A fall on a karabiner loaded
in transverse direction is worse than with an open gate.

from BD ...

I’ve seen and/or heard of only a handful of carabiners that have broken in the field in my time as Director of Global Quality at Black Diamond, and most have broken in the same way: nose hooked. What is “nose hooked”? It’s just how it sounds: the nose of the carabiner gets hung up on a sling, Stopper wire or bolt hanger.

Carabiners are incredibly strong—they meet a minimum test of 20 kN (4496 lbf or 2039 kg) when properly loaded on their major axis with the gate closed. In an open gate scenario, carabiners still test to a minimum of 7 kN (1574 lbf or 714 kg). But when you test a nose-hooked carabiner, it can fail at less than 10% of its rated closed gate strength—that’s less than 2 kN (500 lbf or 227 kg), a load that can be easily generated in even the smallest of climbing falls or even just a light bounce test.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/...sehooked-carabiners/

So how did that carabiner break? Magic?

Lol mista jay cant even read pages 7-10 in the pdf he posted ... It give a very concise reason of why the uiaa rates and test stuff the way they do and the forces in a fall

I would copy and paste it but im at the crag doing actual climbing ....

Who do u trust? ... Some know it all on rc who goes PLONK and never admits hes wrong ... Or uiaa, bd and camp ... And every other manuf whos made 7kn og biners

Maybe jay really knows better than em all ... Lol

Jay-

First, I agree, 9kN is better than 7. That is an obvious fact.

Secondly, while the calculator is nice, it doesnt tell me how you (the one who made it) decide to divide up weight between different pieces in the system. Not saying that you have skewed your calculator, but with the chance of bias, since you are the one that made it, can you explain how you calculate those forces, and especially how you take into account other factors that affect force on the anchor or other parts of the system (slack, friction, etc).

Thirdly, I'm still waiting to hear an answer to my 2rd question. Convince me that 9kN is enough in the real world. Quite frankly, according to your own calculator, you are looking at 8.4kNs with the numbers you put in. It isn't that much harder to eek out enough to bust your 9kN biners. By your own logic, I'm not sure that 9kN should be enough to give you any sort of confidence like you are projecting about your biners.

i've tied my own slings and i've never had any trouble.. its cheap and safe, if you know what you are doing

"falls can generate up to 20 kN loads on the top anchor"

Well, my 7 and your 9 open gates combined aren't holding that load!

I guess that means your biners are cheap, and mine are a little cheaper? I mean, unless you got 20 kN open gate biner strength you got no business telling anyone "hey, there's a sale over at Omega on biners and I got some to put together homemade draws"...right?

And i guess that all of us who climb on neutrinos and nanos are ginna die

Either you believe em safe or you dont ... I guess that bd is out to kill me ;)

I climb on neutrinos all the time, I own probably a dozen or two, they were great. The new hotwires are only a gram more and full sized. Whats your point? Do you really fail at comprehension that badly?

I'm sure you could do this all day...oh wait, you do this all day already.

get some sunshine dude. eat a frosted cupcake. get an oily back rub while listening to one of those nature sound cd's.

"falls can generate up to 20 kN loads on the top anchor"

Well, my 7 and your 9 open gates combined aren't holding that load!

I guess that means your biners are cheap, and mine are a little cheaper? I mean, unless you got 20 kN open gate biner strength you got no business telling anyone "hey, there's a sale over at Omega on biners and I got some to put together homemade draws"...right?

And i guess that all of us who climb on neutrinos and nanos are ginna die

Either you believe em safe or you dont ... I guess that bd is out to kill me ;)

Most of the assumptions in the model, such as a static belay, rigid falling mass, etc. will bias the impact force upward compared with a real-world fall; however, the numbers generated by the calculator are not certain to be upper bounds on real-world results. For one thing, the models assume no friction between the rope and intermediate protection. Put enough rope drag in the system, and you could possibly generate forces higher than the models predict for a given nominal fall factor.

For simplicity sake, since lots of you are jumping on Jay's "open strength rating" and crucifying this guy who isnt worried about an open gate strength of 7kN (which he shouldn't be)...

Can anyone tell me at least one case where an open gate biner broke catastrophically, causing total failure of the biner, and resulted in the rope catch on the next piece/clip below?? I'm all ears on this one. First sell me that in the real world an open gate strength biner has failed on people. Then, sell me the reality that a 9kN open gate strength is "enough" to not worry about compared to a 7kN open gate strength. I'm genuinely asking for this info of you that are big proponents of this; I've never seen any real-world evidence.


Might I just add that there are many small cams and nuts on the market only rated to 4kN that repeatedly hold whipper after whipper? Food for thought.

Jay, for the record, I'm pretty much in agreeement with nearly all of the points you have made in this thread. The following gave me pause, though:


I'm instinctively thinking that friction in the system will decrease peak force at the top carabiner, rather than increase it.

Just to add some interesting fact to the discussion (which i of course cant back up with a link or something):

Pit Schubert of the German Alpine club (one of THE guys when it comes to climbing safety) said that the UIAA should really higher their standarts concerning open gate strengths, and the he uses only the strongest stuff he can get, and he advises everyone to get at least 10kN open Gate biners.

qwert

Just to add some interesting fact to the discussion (which i of course cant back up with a link or something):

Pit Schubert of the German Alpine club (one of THE guys when it comes to climbing safety) said that the UIAA should really higher their standarts concerning open gate strengths, and the he uses only the strongest stuff he can get, and he advises everyone to get at least 10kN open Gate biners.

qwert

Is English your first language?

the energizer bunny thread...still going.

okay, can we agree on this? I can solve this issue by backing up my sh*tty bottom-of-the line biners by using two (gates opposite and opposed)? I mean, at 3.99 I can affored a hundred of these guys.

alll the peices on my trad rack have wire-gates on them. I carry a few extra wire-gates to back them up on TR anchors or belay stations. if my draws end up in a situation where it's a potentially nasty fall that's far beyond the 7 kN open-gate threshold, throw on an extra cheap-oh wire biner and we're all happy climbers.

love you guys, m1245

What you say is true for friction between the rope and top anchor. Additional friction at the top anchor increases the effective fall factor, and hence increases the tension in the climbers side of the rope, but it also decreases the tension in the belayer's side of the rope. The decrease in force on the belayer's side is greater than the increase on the climber's side, and so the net effect on the force felt by the anchor (the sum of the two tensions) is reduction. Friction at the top anchor is included in the "friction-adjusted" results in my calculator, and you can see the effect by changing the friction factor (the higher the setting, the greater the friction).

Friction between the top anchor and the belayer is another matter. For one thing, I haven't attempted to accounted for it in my calculator, and therefore I haven't attempted to study it. However, logically, I think that it will increase the impact force on the top anchor.

Say, the rope makes a sharp bend at an anchor half way between the belayer and the top anchor. Like the top anchor, this bend will reduce the effective amount of rope available to absorb the energy of the fall, and hence will increase the effective fall factor. But since the friction is being applied between the belayer the top anchor, the tension in the rope is increased on both sides of the anchor, and so the force on the anchor, the sum of those tensions, should be higher.

Jay

Just to add some batteries to this bunny:
Yes, what you described is a safe way to back up your shitty bottom of the line biners, but on the other hand, for the price of two of your shitty bottom of the line biners (~8$) you can actually get a really good biner, that will wheight a third of your two biners.
Also, should you ever go to the gym, shiny expensive biners will make you look more fashionable.

qwert

Let me put it to you simply mista jay .... Do you believe that a 7 kn og biner is unsafe .... Yes or no

holy fuck I didn't know you could get any more retarded