May18th afternoon at around 6:30-7ish... a girl fell off the end of her rope while being lowered off a 30 meter pitch on the Fortress, Skaha Bluffs, Penticton Canada. I guess she had cleaned the anchor & clipped a fig 8 on a bit into her harness to lower, not realizing that it was a full 30 meter pitch & that the 2 meters of rope would have made a difference. She fell approximately 15 feet/5 meters according to eye witness.

May18th afternoon at around 6:30-7ish... a girl fell off the end of her rope while being lowered off a 30 meter pitch on the Fortress, Skaha Bluffs, Penticton Canada. I guess she had cleaned the anchor & clipped a fig 8 on a bit into her harness to lower, not realizing that it was a full 30 meter pitch & that the 2 meters of rope would have made a difference. She fell approximately 15 feet/5 meters according to eye witness.

Helicopter & Search & rescue came in & flew her out, but took about an hour to an hour & a half.. she was aware, & could feel her toes but she & everyone around were very worried about her & her lower back.

24 yr old girl from Invermere, who had found & met her partners in the parking lot.

No word on injuries.

Belayer wasn't tied in.

Closing the system would of prevented this one.

May18th afternoon at around 6:30-7ish... a girl fell off the end of her rope while being lowered off a 30 meter pitch on the Fortress, Skaha Bluffs, Penticton Canada. I guess she had cleaned the anchor & clipped a fig 8 on a bit into her harness to lower, not realizing that it was a full 30 meter pitch & that the 2 meters of rope would have made a difference. She fell approximately 15 feet/5 meters according to eye witness.

Helicopter & Search & rescue came in & flew her out, but took about an hour to an hour & a half.. she was aware, & could feel her toes but she & everyone around were very worried about her & her lower back.

24 yr old girl from Invermere, who had found & met her partners in the parking lot.

No word on injuries.

Why do we do what we do?

I cannot believe all the communication accidents between the lead climber and the belayer, this year. But it did get me to thinking. Why do we do what we do?

Basic sport lead climbing steps:
Climber climbs up
Placing pro or clipping bolts on the way up
Get’s to the top, clips some draws in to the bolt anchors
Get’s lowered by the belayer.

Heavily relying on good communication with the bealyer during the decent.

Why do most climbers do it that way?

Let’s eliminate the communication problem.

Climber climbs up
Placing pro or clipping bolts on the way up
Get’s to the top, clips some draws in to the bolt anchors
Puts ATC or GRiGri on rope, with Auto block back up lowers down.

Obviously I wasn't there, but if the route was overhanging to such an extent that the climber was out of sight, wouldn't lowering have been the obvious route of descent? I'm not familiar with that crag and the consensus on lowering from the anchors there so any insight would be appreciated.

Yes, from the sound of it this was the classic rap-or-lower variety of miscommunication at the top of a one-pitch climb. And as stated, you need to have it explicitly understood before you leave the ground - particularly when climbing in groups where you may end up belayed by someone you don't know. This is one that can bite the experienced and inexperienced alike if you aren't clear upfront.

Yeah but very few people tie in on single pitch (i'm sure you are the shining exception). If you are concerned about rope length on single pitch, a knot in the end of the rope is best in a majority of situations.

I am very sorry to hear about the accident, and I hope Phil Powers makes a good recovery.

This is another reminder that ever experienced people make mistakes.

Regarding the Clear Creek accident:


The first 15 feet of the climb overhangs, and it's then very slabby all the way to the top. Communication could certainly be difficult. Also, my understanding is that it was raining pretty good, which could have made communication more difficult, and possibly might have made people more likely to hurry.


This is definitely my take-away from the accident. For sure it's a wake-up call to stay vigilant about communication issues, every single day, always.

But later we'll know more about the specifics of the accident.

GO

Why do we do what we do?

I cannot believe all the communication accidents between the lead climber and the belayer, this year. But it did get me to thinking. Why do we do what we do?

Basic sport lead climbing steps:
Climber climbs up
Placing pro or clipping bolts on the way up
Get’s to the top, clips some draws in to the bolt anchors
Get’s lowered by the belayer.

Heavily relying on good communication with the bealyer during the decent.

Why do most climbers do it that way?

Let’s eliminate the communication problem.

Climber climbs up
Placing pro or clipping bolts on the way up
Get’s to the top, clips some draws in to the bolt anchors
Puts ATC or GRiGri on rope, with Auto block back up lowers down.

This would totally eliminate the communication problem that seems to be happening.
Also it would not put the tension on the pro gear at very odd angles.

Rick

Since you seem to be familiar with the area, is lowering or rappelling the usualy method of descent for the area?

I see a lot of replies implying it was the fault of the belayer. Rubbish.

I climb because I enjoy it. I live because I'm pedantic to the excessive. I read sh!t here all the time about lowering accidents. I refuse to be lowered. My safety is my problem. Nobody is going to have a chance to drop me. I'd never put that burden on someone. The guilt if they mess up and the fact that people mess this up all the time are/were enough for me to change my tactics completely. If you cannot rap safely on your own power then you don't climb with me. When you reach the anchors your safety is your issue.

I've never been "lowered" and I never will be. My habits at the anchors are set in stone. There is no mantra or "method" to it. It's simple. It's been stated and restated here 1000 times.

If you get "dropped" then honestly it's your fault for:

1. Agreeing to be lowered and not being hyper aware of all the safe aspects of a safe-lower.

2. Staying on your personal anchor until the lowering rope is fully tight with your body weight and there is no load at all on your PAS(s). Only then do you unweight disconnect your PAS and lower off. Even then you grab the other side of the rope and hold on until you are sure everything is *SAFE*.

3. Verbal communication is NOT safe. Test that rope liberally before you agree to weight it with no backup at all for lowering.

*NEVER* assume your belayer has the situation under control and blindly trust the system. It's your job to keep yourself alive. Do everything in your power to make sure that when you let go to come down you know that the rope is taught with your weight.

*ALWAYS* skip being lowered. Rappel, rappel safely, back up your rappel, inspect your system, weight the system, repeat at least once more to be sure. Then rappel off safely to the ground.

I see a lot of replies implying it was the fault of the belayer. Rubbish.

I climb because I enjoy it. I live because I'm pedantic to the excessive. I read sh!t here all the time about lowering accidents. I refuse to be lowered. My safety is my problem. Nobody is going to have a chance to drop me. I'd never put that burden on someone. The guilt if they mess up and the fact that people mess this up all the time are/were enough for me to change my tactics completely. If you cannot rap safely on your own power then you don't climb with me. When you reach the anchors your safety is your issue.

I've never been "lowered" and I never will be. My habits at the anchors are set in stone. There is no mantra or "method" to it. It's simple. It's been stated and restated here 1000 times.

If you get "dropped" then honestly it's your fault for:

1. Agreeing to be lowered and not being hyper aware of all the safe aspects of a safe-lower.

2. Staying on your personal anchor until the lowering rope is fully tight with your body weight and there is no load at all on your PAS(s). Only then do you unweight disconnect your PAS and lower off. Even then you grab the other side of the rope and hold on until you are sure everything is *SAFE*.

3. Verbal communication is NOT safe. Test that rope liberally before you agree to weight it with no backup at all for lowering.

*NEVER* assume your belayer has the situation under control and blindly trust the system. It's your job to keep yourself alive. Do everything in your power to make sure that when you let go to come down you know that the rope is taught with your weight.

*ALWAYS* skip being lowered. Rappel, rappel safely, back up your rappel, inspect your system, weight the system, repeat at least once more to be sure. Then rappel off safely to the ground.

*NEVER* assume your belayer has the situation under control and blindly trust the system.

Do everything in your power to make sure that when you let go to come down you know that the rope is taught with your weight.

I won't climb with you.

If I can't trust you to lower me, I can't trust you to catch me either. It's called a partnership for a reason.

I'm willing to bet you don't climb very many overhanging routes.

(BTW if I'm climbing overhanging sport normally my partner then climbs, cleans and raps.)

Both of the last two accidents were not from the belayer’s ability or lack of. But the lack of clear communication before leaving the ground or because of distance they could not hear.

I agree completely with onrockandice. Rappelling keeps you in control.

Its not about lack of trust its about keeping control in the hands of the best person to make the decisions.

I can play that game. I could stereotype by saying I am willing to be you don't climb much adventurous trad.
(BTW if I'm climbing overhanging sport normally my partner then climbs, cleans and raps.)

I won't climb with you.

If I can't trust you to lower me, I can't trust you to catch me either. It's called a partnership for a reason.

However, I do agree with you at some level - if you get dropped it's your fault for choosing that partner and how the two of you do business.

Tie a knot, tie it to a tree, tie it to a belayer, just close the system.

I agree completely with onrockandice. Rappelling keeps you in control.

Its not about lack of trust its about keeping control in the hands of the best person to make the decisions.

If everyone just lowered off sport climbs, and stopped all this hand-wringing about whether to rap or lower, these accidents would never occur.

i believe that when you cant see or hear your belayer clearly rapping or walking off is the sensible option ... but with clear line of sight or hearing ... lowering is just fine IMO ...

you don't climb with anyone that can't or doesn't want to do the route you are doing? i find that hard to imagine.

it isn't a stereotype. it's a simple fact that cleaning overhanging routes is done by lowering off.. no question about it.

but thank you for playing your "i'm so fucking rad i'm a trad climber" card. *Plonk*

Rapping is better in numerous ways. Many bolted routes lowering is simply not the sensible option. Why would you limit your options simply because Jay thinks lowering is fantastic?

Rapping is better in numerous ways. Many bolted routes lowering is simply not the sensible option. Why would you limit your options simply because Jay thinks lowering is fantastic?

Makes sense!

I'm sorry you have difficulty imagining it, but its the truth. My partner and I are a team we climb together. Furthermore most routes I do are multipitch.

Its certainly not so simple. I have cleaned overhung routes on rap before, though as I have said normally my partner would clean on second.

I never said that. If you feel that way about trad climbers then that is your problem.

What happens when you climb out of sight of your belayer.. so you assume you're soloing at that point??

Lol... i have some routes in mind i'd love to see you try to rap clean haha.. would be awesome to point and laugh. then send a 12 year old up to do it the right way.

i climb plenty of trad which is why i think your assumption that sport climbers don't know what they are doing is hilarious.

I once watched a trad climber get stuck to a quick clip anchor ....

how do you know that the guy in the OP didn't ALWAYS rap down and decided for once that he'd lower... but if he sprayed all day long about always rapping then if he didn't communicate that and bad things happen.

As many have mentioned the belayer should keep the climber on if there is even a whisper of doubt.

I completely agree.

But that doubt ends when the climber confirms that he is SAFE/OFFBELAY.

Wrong. Lowering/rappelling accidents involving miscommunication almost by definition occur when the climber, intending to lower, erroneously says "off belay."

Whats 'wrong'?

Jay there are many ways one can safely descend from a sport climb. I am not suggesting any one of them is the right way. I am not giving advice.

You however in your self proclaimed wisdom has said that there is one correct way.

Wrong. Lowering/rappelling accidents involving miscommunication almost by definition occur when the climber, intending to lower, erroneously says "off belay."

Jay

If other climbers are around it helps a lot for both the belayer and climber to use names.

100% agree. I always, always use names and I always always ask for confirmation. I don't care if I can see the climber, I won't take somebody off belay unless I here confirmation with my name.

Is there a "typical" lowering-vs rappelling miscommunication accident?

A few weeks ago, a climber gave me a new reason why he didn't need to tie a knot in the rope while belaying me: "The rope is 70 meters ". Oh well, another excuse for developing bad habits.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Is there a "typical" lowering-vs rappelling miscommunication accident?

Funny. Neither of the rappelling vs lowering miscommunication accidents I have personal knowledge of went down that way.

Where do you get "typical" from Jay? A statistical analysis? Your personal observations of posts on the internet? A Magic Hat?

In both instances the climbers were out of site but within earshot of the belayers.

In the first accident, the climber assumed he would be lowered and the belayer assumed the climber was rapping. No words were exchanged.

In the second accident, the climber said "take me up" and the belayer heard "take me off". No confirmation was requested or given before the climber committed his weight to the rope.

In both accidents the climbers fell to the ground.

Each of these teams had climbed extensively together.

These two accidents remind me of a pair I climbed next to long ago who used different intonations of just one word, "Dude", for almost every climbing command. I was at an anchor next to the climber when he arrived. Dude first meant "I'm off belay", next "you're on belay", next "climbing", and finally "climb on", all with slightly different enunciations and tone. They both looked stoned. As no one got hurt is was pretty funny really.

Funny. Neither of the rappelling vs lowering miscommunication accidents I have personal knowledge of went down that way.

Haha.

And you have how many Jay?

I've been reading about them for the last 20 years too, in addition to talking with the two climbers I personally know who have been hurt in some these accidents.

To me there seems to be no typical.

Jay, I don't have data, or any meaningful analysis. My point is that you don't either. It's not a big point. Why are you so driven to prove that your perception of "typical" based on your reading of anecdotal reporting on the internet is correct?

...and recently I've speculated that eventually there will be an accident because the term "on belay" is becoming confused with the term "belaying," but I haven't seen examples of either of those . . . yet.

I'm not driven to prove that. I casually used the word "typical," and you were driven to turn it into a big point. And now that you're asked to back it up, you're admitting you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You're arguing about nothing just for the sake of arguing.

Jay

? So what is this difference between the term "on belay" and belaying? I certainly don't know what you are getting at here.

Says the man with 20,000 plus posts. :-)

Climber X and Climber Y are tied in together. X is leading a pitch; he is being belayed by Y. Who is "on belay"?

Ok, fair enough I see the distinction you're drawing.

Ok, fair enough I see the distinction you're drawing.

But people need to be aware that climbing calls differ from person to person and region to region. As I leader I would never call "off belay" as I am not belaying.

As a belayer, I always say "belay is on" or "belay is off." As a leader, I say, "I'm safe" (I make sure the person I'm climbing with is familiar with exactly what I mean when I say it . . . before I start climbing). If I don't say "I'm safe," then I'd say "off belay."

As far as I'm concerned, "on belay" and "off belay" are instructions, not adjectives. I get a bit iffy when I hear belayers use the term "on belay" after their leader clips the first protection. Sounds like these peeps are the ones that may have potential for some miscommunication later.

But people need to be aware that climbing calls differ from person to person and region to region. As I leader I would never call "off belay" as I am not belaying.

As long as both climbers know what is going on and can communicate clearly then the exact words don't really matter as they vary from climber to climber.

Sport climbers who call OFF-BELAY and then expect to get lowered aren't merely guilty of mis-communicating but are making a fundamental procedural mistake. You don't go off belay and then expect to be put back on belay.


My calls:
On belay [CLIMBER NAME], climb when ready.
Climbing.
Take, slack, etc.
[BELAYER NAME] I'm SAFE.
[CLIMBER NAME] Are you safe?
Yes [BELAYER NAME], I'm SAFE.
Ok, off Belay [CLIMBER NAME].
Thanks

Nice illustration of the useless "safe" comment.

Giving this a little more thought, I suspect that all comments from the leader are unnecessary, and hence just an unnecessary opportunity for miscommunication. There is no reason to say "safe."

At the top of a single-pitch climb, if you intend to be lowered, say nothing. If you intend to rappel, give the unambiguous command, "off belay."

Jay

Why does anything that is different from how you do things wrong in you mind Jay?
As I have said I never call 'OFF BELAY' as a climber. 'SAFE' is just as clear an unambiguous, it is a statement. Whereas presumably a climber when he calls 'OFF BELAY' it is a request.

So what is wrong with 'SAFE' rather than 'OFF BELAY'?

Why does anything that is different from how you do things wrong in you mind Jay?

I wasn't seeking advice, I was seeking explanation.

Why does anything that is different from how you do things wrong in you mind Jay?
As I have said I never call 'OFF BELAY' as a climber. 'SAFE' is just as clear an unambiguous, it is a statement. Whereas presumably a climber when he calls 'OFF BELAY' it is a request.

So what is wrong with 'SAFE' rather than 'OFF BELAY'?

When I clip in to an anchor, I am off belay, so I let my belayer know that so he/she can unclip the rope from their belay device and get on with the next order of business.

This (bolded) is the problem with using the term "off belay" on single pitch sport routes. Once the leader calls Off Belay, the belayer's job is essentially "done" and they tend to move on to other things. The reality is that in most cases on this type of route, they are not "done" and should continue to tend the belay because they will be lowering. Slack, Take, and Lower should be sufficient for that process. Only when the leader truly plans to be off belay (to then rap), should they request to be Off Belay. "K.I.S.S." is still a good principle.

This (bolded) is the problem with using the term "off belay" on single pitch sport routes. Once the leader calls Off Belay, the belayer's job is essentially "done" and they tend to move on to other things. The reality is that in most cases on this type of route, they are not "done" and should continue to tend the belay because they will be lowering. Slack, Take, and Lower should be sufficient for that process. Only when the leader truly plans to be off belay (to then rap), should they request to be Off Belay. "K.I.S.S." is still a good principle.

Interesting. At one time I may have considered "off belay" a request, but now I consider it a statement. When I clip in to an anchor, I am off belay,

I think Jay is right, the command "safe" is superfluous and perhaps somewhat confusing. What's really the point if you're not telling your belayer that the belay is no longer needed - meaning you are no longer on belay?

As long as the climber and belayer understand each other, it doesn't matter what they say.

the solution is exceedingly simple

NEVER say off belay unless you want to be taken off belay with the name

the belayer NEVER takes the person off belay unless the climber asks to be off belay with the name ... when you do confirm the off belay

As long as the climber and belayer understand each other, it doesn't matter what they say.

As long as the climber and belayer understand each other, it doesn't matter what they say.

Yes.

"hey, buddy...when I reach the anchors, I'm going to clip in. After I clip in, I'll yell BOOYASHAKA! and that means I'm safe you can take me off of belay"

Interesting. At one time I may have considered "off belay" a request, but now I consider it a statement. When I clip in to an anchor, I am off belay, so I let my belayer know that so he/she can unclip the rope from their belay device and get on with the next order of business. Also, I am effectively no longer on belay when my belayer lowers me to the ground.

Standardization is great for newbies. After that people improvise. That they improvise in a way you don't agree with doesn't necessarily make them any less safe.

And I didn't say as long as the climber and belayer think they are communicating effectively.

Jay, you are a consummate sophist in that you post adroitly but often speciously and without substance. And you have last word-itis.

it means that I am no longer dependent on the climbing rope for my saftey. in the situation I described, I reached anchors and clipped into them.

it is confusing, and not everyone adopts a uniform standard of communication.

for example...you order a hoagie, grinder, sub, hero and they're all "sandwiches", but not everyone will know what exactly you're asking for.

At one time I may have considered "off belay" a request, but now I consider it a statement. When I clip in to an anchor, I am off belay

Standardization is great for newbies. After that people improvise. That they improvise in a way you don't agree with doesn't necessarily make them any less safe.