Two days ago, A friend of mine was climbing and while rappelling down to a set of anchors he ran out the end of his rope. he fell something a little short of 50 feet, and has several broken ribs, a broken hip, a broken ankle, and lots of internal damage. but, is going to live with no permanent injuries. this does work as a good example of why knots at the ends of the rope are important... and having someone at the bottom to tell you when your ropes are even. and having experienced climbers with you. it was the luckiest fall ever as well, apparently he fell between several large rocks, a stump, anything harder and more dangerous than the dirt he landed on.

does work as a good example of why knots at the ends of the rope are important... and having someone at the bottom to tell you when your ropes are even.

....A stranded climber is a dead climber....

if its that windy bag it ... you can still have knots just fine

its quite likely that more people have died rapping off ends than having knots stuck i cracks on windy days ...

would you consider Joe Simpson stranded on Siula Grande?

if its that windy bag it ... you can still have knots just fine

its quite likely that more people have died rapping off ends than having knots stuck i cracks on windy days ...

This is a good reminder to remark the middle of my rope. Lately I've just been guesstimating.

Never ever trust a middle marker - at least on the first rap of the day. I bet more people have gone off the end after mistaking a mark for the middle (in some cases the mark actually once was the middle) then have gone off the ends by mis-guestimating.

thats yr judgement call ...

short of lightning storms ... i cant think of weather conditions where i wouldnt spend an extra few min bagging the rope if it was THAT windy ... ropes can get stuck even without knots, why risk it if the wind is blowing more than a porn star

when yr rushing yr more likely to eff it all up regardless ...

[I've been in more than my fair share of situations where rapping a long route was the only choice, and bagging it wasn't an option.

I'm wondering if a confusion has occurred because of 2 different meanings of the word "bag".

One defintion is to place the rope in a pack and feed it out as one rappels in order to keep the rope from blowing about in the wind.

The second meaning is to just quit what one is doing.

rob.calm

I stitch mine through the sheath. It doesn't move until it's almost completely disintegrated.

When you get more experience you will realize that things are seldom as black and white as you think they are at this stage.

Just you using one rope that you have knowledge of is obviously pretty safe. But in reality ends do get cut off (unlike the other silly malicious damage you suggested, more likely with a 70 that you alluded to using) and ropes do get passed around. You sound like you are at the point where you aren't aware of the extent to which these things happen.

I started out suggesting that you use caution on the first rap of the day to make sure that the apparent middle actually is. If you think that is overkill - fine - don't bother. I personally think that knots in the end are overkill 99% of the time and rarely use them - most often with a nervous partner.

Mistaking a middle marker has resulted in the death of one friend and a badly broken leg in another - so I'm somewhat skeptical.

Experience trolling the internet? Give me a single logical reason, why I shouldn't use a middle mark to line up my rope on a rappel.

You're only argument so far was that my rope will be somehow shortened without my knowledge. I pointed out that if gear can dangerously change without your knowledge, then all sorts of crazy shit could happen that will kill you.

So you came back by calling me inexperienced. I'm sure that's always a good trump card to play every time you make up an arbitrary statements about rock climbing.

bagging as in saddlebagging or some variation thereoff ...

like i said if the wind is bowing like crazy, i prefer not to be throwing my ropes, knotted or unknotted ... they can get stuck either way ...

as to multi ... i run up a 6+ pitch multi on average 3+ times a week in climbing seasons and a 12+ pitch multi once a week at least ... some have rap offs, others dont

knotting is yr choice ... but like i said i would bet that more people die of rapping off the ends of the rope than getting stuck on rap ... especially when yr cold, tired, and hungry, in the dark ... or when yr in a rush ...

and no you dont trust middle marks or pattern changes unless its yr rope or you know its accurate ...

here my "clients" (im not a guide) on the last pitch of a 14 pitch multi last week ... walked right off

[image]http://i46.tinypic.com/11vi6fk.jpg[/image]

Gotta tell you - I hate reading "..." and "yr" every 5-10 words with no capitals and periods.

The last thing I need is a stuck rope. And plenty people have died because they got stranded on a cliff face when bad weather rolled in. It happens.

there is no real reason not to tie knots on the ends of your ropes, as you said it should really be done all the time

Luckily I've never really been in a proper shit situation when it comes to rapping off, but I like to think I would be able to weigh up the pros and cons of stacking/bagging/knots/etc. to minimize risk if I did. Which I guess is all you can do - pick the technique least likely to end up with you fucked*.

The fundamental issue isn't the lack of knots. Its the lack of consideration of this danger. Those that tie knots in their ropes generally don't need their knots because they've already considered the issue.

Gotta tell you - I hate reading "..." and "yr" every 5-10 words with no capitals and periods.

Ain't that the truth. If we're not using my rope, I always ask, "how long is this rope?"

I got bit by that one a long time ago. Never again.

Quite likely?? I would say its absolutely certain. People tend to epic when their ropes get stuck but the don't often die.

Epicing can be fun. Dying never is.

look back as you rap and monitor the ends.

^What he said. Whether I have knots in the ends or not. I may not always tie knots in my rap ropes, but I consider it every single time and I always keep a careful eye below me.

I never use knots.
.

One extreme to the other.

An interesting question to consider is has ANYBODY ever been saved by knots in their abseil rope? Personally, I've reached my knots before. But I was watching them. It was a '40m' abseil with a doubled 60m rope. With stretch I was 3m off the ground. I just untied the knots and let the rope slip through and then down climbed the last 3m.


Yeah. Friends of mine decided that on their wedding day they'd climb up a multi pitch route and get married on the top of said route. The conditions that day were crap. Super frigid and so much fog that you couldn't see more than a few feet in front of you.
Anyway, I rapped a subsequent line so that I could take pics of them climbing. On the second rap I see these indistinct shapes fluttering into my view from beyond the fog. "What the hell is that?" I'm wondering to myself. Well I'll tell ya it was pterodactyls man. A whole flock of them.

[image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5NRRnAsk4ZY/SyfGWhNTZvI/AAAAAAAAAKk/vxNyDzZm_eE/s320/12.png[/image]

So here I am hanging on a rope several hundred feet off the ground, blanketed in an impenetrable fog, and somehow a freakin flock of prehistoric flying reptiles found my a$$. So what did they do? I'll tell you what they did. They tore me a new one thats what. They swooped in and bit and pecked and gouged at my face and eyes. Needless to say I tried to fight them off. And like the retard that I am I lost control of the rap in my efforts to avoid being mauled to death by pterodactyls. (I didn't have a prussic back up. Idiotic, I know)

[image]http://images.flabber.net/files/lees_verder/assholeoatmeal.jpg[/image]


So did I plummeted quickly to my death? Nope. I was on the high friction side of my device and I descended at a snails pace. So much so that I didn't even realize what was happening until I jammed up against the knot I had tied at the end of the rope. Did I thank my lucky stars that I remembered to tie the knot? In hindsight you betcha. But not then when I was dangling at the end of the rope like a stuffed pinata getting murderplexed by a mob of angry avian predators.

So after the pterodactyls finished kicking the crap outta me they flew off. I came to a little while later, extricated myself, and ascended back up the rope to the anchors I had rapped past. Got myself into position in time for the bride and groom to climb past.

So in answer to your question I have had my a$$ saved by a knot at the end of the rope.

Supra

Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons. But I'm sticking to Pterodactyls. Those suckers were HUGE!

An interesting question to consider is has ANYBODY ever been saved by knots in their abseil rope? Personally, I've reached my knots before. But I was watching them. It was a '40m' abseil with a doubled 60m rope. With stretch I was 3m off the ground. I just untied the knots and let the rope slip through and then down climbed the last 3m.

Yeah. Friends of mine decided that on their wedding day they'd climb up a multi pitch route and get married on the top of said route. The conditions that day were crap. Super frigid and so much fog that you couldn't see more than a few feet in front of you.
Anyway, I rapped a subsequent line so that I could take pics of them climbing. On the second rap I see these indistinct shapes fluttering into my view from beyond the fog. "What the hell is that?" I'm wondering to myself. Well I'll tell ya it was pterodactyls man. A whole flock of them.

[image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5NRRnAsk4ZY/SyfGWhNTZvI/AAAAAAAAAKk/vxNyDzZm_eE/s320/12.png[/image]

So here I am hanging on a rope several hundred feet off the ground, blanketed in an impenetrable fog, and somehow a freakin flock of prehistoric flying reptiles found my a$$. So what did they do? I'll tell you what they did. They tore me a new one thats what. They swooped in and bit and pecked and gouged at my face and eyes. Needless to say I tried to fight them off. And like the retard that I am I lost control of the rap in my efforts to avoid being mauled to death by pterodactyls. (I didn't have a prussic back up. Idiotic, I know)

[image]http://images.flabber.net/files/lees_verder/assholeoatmeal.jpg[/image]


So did I plummeted quickly to my death? Nope. I was on the high friction side of my device and I descended at a snails pace. So much so that I didn't even realize what was happening until I jammed up against the knot I had tied at the end of the rope. Did I thank my lucky stars that I remembered to tie the knot? In hindsight you betcha. But not then when I was dangling at the end of the rope like a stuffed pinata getting murderplexed by a mob of angry avian predators.

So after the pterodactyls finished kicking the crap outta me they flew off. I came to a little while later, extricated myself, and ascended back up the rope to the anchors I had rapped past. Got myself into position in time for the bride and groom to climb past.

So in answer to your question I have had my a$$ saved by a knot at the end of the rope.

Supra

Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons. But I'm sticking to Pterodactyls. Those suckers were HUGE!

Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons.

Mud falcons?

Supra - why does the animal kingdom hate you? You have now reported having been attacked by felines, rodents & avians. I suggest you avoid surfing, or else you might be eaten by Mr. Jaws.

Too late. I got the crap kicked out of me by a Thresher Shark back in 2000.

1st run of tests will recreate rope-ends slipping through brake-hand positioned just below the hip (possibly leaving sufficient slack for higher friction devices such as the atcxp to significantly slow the rate of descent, allowing the knot to engage).

For the 2nd run I'll use what I consider a less than optimal grip position immediately below the rap device. I expect very few devices will significantly slow my descent.

Why do you suggest that having your hand immediately below the device offers less friction? Its about getting a 180degree angle on entrance and exit of the device.

I normally have my hands immediately below the device. Normally around a foot or less. Incidently this is similar to how Petzl recommends you descend.

Does anyone have hands on experience of whether a backup knot will catch after rapping off the end of a rope?

Does anyone have hands on experience of whether a backup knot will catch after rapping off the end of a rope? ....

Whoever commented on the blind trust of middle marks in the rope was 100% correct.

Yet another distraction from the true heart of the matter, PAY ATTENTION.

I promise, I rap more in one month the most of you will do in a year. It's my job. I'm constantly having to rappel routes first so the client comes down second and I can give them a fireman's belay.

I never knot my ends.

I pay attention.

[..] in a real situation as opposed to some test set-up, there is absolutely no chance that a friction knot rappel backup will keep you from rappelling off the end of the rope[..]

The situation of the knot NOT working because you didn't let go of it does not really apply if the friction knot is below the device. If you are gripping the knot (and the rope it surrounds) tightly, then you are going to stop. If for any reason you let go of the knot/rope, then the knot has a very good chance of cinching on the rope and stopping you. I'll take that.

I don't know who raps more in one month , but I do know that accidents happen even when precautions are taken. I guess that's why they are called accidents. (I bet my AMGA membership started long before yours did, so let's avoid the "I'm an AMGA Blah Blah Blah." )

Rappeling with clients, or how a guide raps with a clients really depends on the clients, the location, and other factors.

If I were guiding an experienced client at a place like the sea cliffs of Arcadia in Maine, I would most likely not tie knots in the end of my ropes and would most likely give the client a fireman belay. The Same Client and I coming off something on White Horse in New Hampshire and there's a good chance I would tie knots. Rapping off some crack on Glacier Point and I'd make the judgement call on the spot.

An inexperienced client, I would threat differently but most like still not ties knots in the end of my rope at Arcadia because on how much rope is piled in the base.

Me, I avoid rappelling when I can but I still end up on rappel a lot.

Sometime it's coming off multi-pitch routes, sometimes single pitch route, sometimes I might be rap-bolting a new route. Sometimes I descending into canyons to check out new climbing of canyoneering potential. (Hot summers in Asia)

I decide whether or not I need a knot at that time. More often than not, I don't have a knot, but I still use them sometimes. "BARK" Buckle, Anchor, Rap Device, and Knot is what I was taught in the 80s, but I also learned that every situation dictates what you do.

Paying attention is a good first rule to follow. Paying attention is what helps me decide whether or not I need to tie those knots.

No matter how much I pay attention, an accident can happen, maybe someone or something above dislodges a rock that knocks me uncontentious and I slide down my ropes until the knots stop me or not.

I agree that we hear about more and more accidents happening, but more and more people are climbing.

Percentage wise, are accidents up, down, or the same?

Are we hearing about more accidents because of the internet?

Let's face it, the accident above would most likely have gone unnoticed outside of the local cliff 15 to 20 years ago.

Internet forums sure spread news quickly.

So yes, pay attention, that is the best tool on your rack to keep you safe. Every situation dictates what you should or shouldn't do.

`Arcadia is somewhere in Canada.´

It is a region of Greece. All others are copies.

I don't really care about the Arcadia as much as I do about the Acadia spelling, so I suppose the Greeks can have it if they want it.

They can't afford it.

All the questions asked and all you can focus on is a typo.

All the questions asked and all you can focus on is a typo.

*pssst......Greg grew up in Acadia....*

Just to save anyone the trouble of doubting you and your story of being attacked by falcons, I'm going to go ahead and remind folks that you have pictures of when you were attacked by a cougar...and not the 50 something in a slinky black dress kind.

edit: fixed cheesetits

[..]If you reach the end of the rope without knowing it then you have made a serious mistake ... it would definitely be a good indication that you are not capable of doing one of the most basic acts in climbing. That is being aware of your situation.[..]

If humans were capable of full situational awareness, irregardless of distraction, fatigue, stress, etc, then accidents might be a truly rare occurrence.

The reality is that we are all susceptible to those things, even the very best. If you realize that, and act accordingly, then your chances of surviving your inevitable mishaps improve considerably.