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rightarmbad
Jun 3, 2012, 1:23 PM
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We were benighted on a cliff one night and realised as we got to the abseil anchors for the cliff, that we forgot to bring two ropes for the abseil.
We knew it would be close to a tree and hoped that we could get into the tree instead off doing a very long walk off.
I rapped without knots in the dark to find that with stretch and careful maneuvering, I could reach the tree and get down.
We never used any knots because we knew that length would be important and didn't want to deal with undoing knots at the end wondering if the few extra inches in the knot would be enough to reach or not.
No danger here, we were simply aware of our circumstances and proceed appropriately.
I never use knots.
Just be aware of your surroundings.
People who insist on knots and abseil backups scare the shit out of me.
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moose_droppings
Jun 3, 2012, 3:42 PM
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rightarmbad wrote: I never use knots. .
One extreme to the other.
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Lazlo
Jun 3, 2012, 4:32 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: rightarmbad wrote: I never use knots. . One extreme to the other.
Win!
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suprasoup
Jun 3, 2012, 9:25 PM
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An interesting question to consider is has ANYBODY ever been saved by knots in their abseil rope? Personally, I've reached my knots before. But I was watching them. It was a '40m' abseil with a doubled 60m rope. With stretch I was 3m off the ground. I just untied the knots and let the rope slip through and then down climbed the last 3m.
Yeah. Friends of mine decided that on their wedding day they'd climb up a multi pitch route and get married on the top of said route. The conditions that day were crap. Super frigid and so much fog that you couldn't see more than a few feet in front of you.
Anyway, I rapped a subsequent line so that I could take pics of them climbing. On the second rap I see these indistinct shapes fluttering into my view from beyond the fog. "What the hell is that?" I'm wondering to myself. Well I'll tell ya it was pterodactyls man. A whole flock of them.
So here I am hanging on a rope several hundred feet off the ground, blanketed in an impenetrable fog, and somehow a freakin flock of prehistoric flying reptiles found my a$$. So what did they do? I'll tell you what they did. They tore me a new one thats what. They swooped in and bit and pecked and gouged at my face and eyes. Needless to say I tried to fight them off. And like the retard that I am I lost control of the rap in my efforts to avoid being mauled to death by pterodactyls. (I didn't have a prussic back up. Idiotic, I know)
So did I plummeted quickly to my death? Nope. I was on the high friction side of my device and I descended at a snails pace. So much so that I didn't even realize what was happening until I jammed up against the knot I had tied at the end of the rope. Did I thank my lucky stars that I remembered to tie the knot? In hindsight you betcha. But not then when I was dangling at the end of the rope like a stuffed pinata getting murderplexed by a mob of angry avian predators.
So after the pterodactyls finished kicking the crap outta me they flew off. I came to a little while later, extricated myself, and ascended back up the rope to the anchors I had rapped past. Got myself into position in time for the bride and groom to climb past.
So in answer to your question I have had my a$$ saved by a knot at the end of the rope.
Supra
Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons. But I'm sticking to Pterodactyls. Those suckers were HUGE!
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curt
Jun 3, 2012, 10:17 PM
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Sounds absolutely pterofying!! 
Curt
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Gmburns2000
Jun 3, 2012, 10:32 PM
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suprasoup wrote: An interesting question to consider is has ANYBODY ever been saved by knots in their abseil rope? Personally, I've reached my knots before. But I was watching them. It was a '40m' abseil with a doubled 60m rope. With stretch I was 3m off the ground. I just untied the knots and let the rope slip through and then down climbed the last 3m. Yeah. Friends of mine decided that on their wedding day they'd climb up a multi pitch route and get married on the top of said route. The conditions that day were crap. Super frigid and so much fog that you couldn't see more than a few feet in front of you. Anyway, I rapped a subsequent line so that I could take pics of them climbing. On the second rap I see these indistinct shapes fluttering into my view from beyond the fog. "What the hell is that?" I'm wondering to myself. Well I'll tell ya it was pterodactyls man. A whole flock of them. [image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5NRRnAsk4ZY/SyfGWhNTZvI/AAAAAAAAAKk/vxNyDzZm_eE/s320/12.png[/image] So here I am hanging on a rope several hundred feet off the ground, blanketed in an impenetrable fog, and somehow a freakin flock of prehistoric flying reptiles found my a$$. So what did they do? I'll tell you what they did. They tore me a new one thats what. They swooped in and bit and pecked and gouged at my face and eyes. Needless to say I tried to fight them off. And like the retard that I am I lost control of the rap in my efforts to avoid being mauled to death by pterodactyls. (I didn't have a prussic back up. Idiotic, I know) [image]http://images.flabber.net/files/lees_verder/assholeoatmeal.jpg[/image] So did I plummeted quickly to my death? Nope. I was on the high friction side of my device and I descended at a snails pace. So much so that I didn't even realize what was happening until I jammed up against the knot I had tied at the end of the rope. Did I thank my lucky stars that I remembered to tie the knot? In hindsight you betcha. But not then when I was dangling at the end of the rope like a stuffed pinata getting murderplexed by a mob of angry avian predators. So after the pterodactyls finished kicking the crap outta me they flew off. I came to a little while later, extricated myself, and ascended back up the rope to the anchors I had rapped past. Got myself into position in time for the bride and groom to climb past. So in answer to your question I have had my a$$ saved by a knot at the end of the rope. Supra Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons. But I'm sticking to Pterodactyls. Those suckers were HUGE!
Just to save anyone the trouble of doubting you and your story of being attacked by falcons, I'm going to go ahead and remind folks that you have pictures of when you were attacked by a cougar...and not the 50 something in a slinky black dress kind.
edit: fixed cheesetits
(This post was edited by Gmburns2000 on Jun 3, 2012, 10:35 PM)
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wonderwoman
Jun 4, 2012, 1:16 AM
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Supra - why does the animal kingdom hate you? You have now reported having been attacked by felines, rodents & avians. I suggest you avoid surfing, or else you might be eaten by Mr. Jaws.
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shockabuku
Jun 4, 2012, 2:25 AM
Post #58 of 89
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suprasoup wrote: An interesting question to consider is has ANYBODY ever been saved by knots in their abseil rope? Personally, I've reached my knots before. But I was watching them. It was a '40m' abseil with a doubled 60m rope. With stretch I was 3m off the ground. I just untied the knots and let the rope slip through and then down climbed the last 3m. Yeah. Friends of mine decided that on their wedding day they'd climb up a multi pitch route and get married on the top of said route. The conditions that day were crap. Super frigid and so much fog that you couldn't see more than a few feet in front of you. Anyway, I rapped a subsequent line so that I could take pics of them climbing. On the second rap I see these indistinct shapes fluttering into my view from beyond the fog. "What the hell is that?" I'm wondering to myself. Well I'll tell ya it was pterodactyls man. A whole flock of them. [image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5NRRnAsk4ZY/SyfGWhNTZvI/AAAAAAAAAKk/vxNyDzZm_eE/s320/12.png[/image] So here I am hanging on a rope several hundred feet off the ground, blanketed in an impenetrable fog, and somehow a freakin flock of prehistoric flying reptiles found my a$$. So what did they do? I'll tell you what they did. They tore me a new one thats what. They swooped in and bit and pecked and gouged at my face and eyes. Needless to say I tried to fight them off. And like the retard that I am I lost control of the rap in my efforts to avoid being mauled to death by pterodactyls. (I didn't have a prussic back up. Idiotic, I know) [image]http://images.flabber.net/files/lees_verder/assholeoatmeal.jpg[/image] So did I plummeted quickly to my death? Nope. I was on the high friction side of my device and I descended at a snails pace. So much so that I didn't even realize what was happening until I jammed up against the knot I had tied at the end of the rope. Did I thank my lucky stars that I remembered to tie the knot? In hindsight you betcha. But not then when I was dangling at the end of the rope like a stuffed pinata getting murderplexed by a mob of angry avian predators. So after the pterodactyls finished kicking the crap outta me they flew off. I came to a little while later, extricated myself, and ascended back up the rope to the anchors I had rapped past. Got myself into position in time for the bride and groom to climb past. So in answer to your question I have had my a$$ saved by a knot at the end of the rope. Supra Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons. But I'm sticking to Pterodactyls. Those suckers were HUGE!
What's with you and the wildlife? Didn't you get attacked by a mountain lion once, too?
(This post was edited by shockabuku on Jun 4, 2012, 2:26 AM)
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moose_droppings
Jun 4, 2012, 4:15 AM
Post #59 of 89
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suprasoup wrote: Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons.
Mud falcons?
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suprasoup
Jun 5, 2012, 5:34 AM
Post #60 of 89
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moose_droppings wrote: suprasoup wrote: Turns out the pterodactyls were actually falcons. Mud falcons?
Peregrines I believe. They close some parts of the area during the mating season.
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squierbypetzl
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Jun 5, 2012, 6:42 AM
Post #62 of 89
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suprasoup wrote: wonderwoman wrote: Supra - why does the animal kingdom hate you? You have now reported having been attacked by felines, rodents & avians. I suggest you avoid surfing, or else you might be eaten by Mr. Jaws. Too late. I got the crap kicked out of me by a Thresher Shark back in 2000. 
Don't go to Australia. The animals there aren't as forgiving as in other parts of the world. It's really no place for humans but you know Aussies.
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squierbypetzl
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Jun 5, 2012, 7:31 AM
Post #63 of 89
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Does anyone have hands on experience of whether a backup knot will catch after rapping off the end of a rope? If not, I have the afternoon off to climb tomorrow and if the gym is emtpy I'll run some tests.
Let's see...
Double strand and single strand descent on 9.7mm dynamic rope, 10mm semi... rope.
Friction devices: atc-xp (2 modes), 1st-gen grigri, reverso, 3 biner emergency descender.
Backup up hitches from harness belay loop to, say, 8 inches above device: klemheist, prussic; 6mm cordelette.
Big fat gym mats for the falls.
"Moderate" descent speed (will calculate on site).
1st run of tests will recreate rope-ends slipping through brake-hand positioned just below the hip (possibly leaving sufficient slack for higher friction devices such as the atcxp to significantly slow the rate of descent, allowing the knot to engage).
For the 2nd run I'll use what I consider a less than optimal grip position immediately below the rap device. I expect very few devices will significantly slow my descent.
Any ideas or suggestions?
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patto
Jun 5, 2012, 8:39 AM
Post #64 of 89
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squierbypetzl wrote: 1st run of tests will recreate rope-ends slipping through brake-hand positioned just below the hip (possibly leaving sufficient slack for higher friction devices such as the atcxp to significantly slow the rate of descent, allowing the knot to engage). For the 2nd run I'll use what I consider a less than optimal grip position immediately below the rap device. I expect very few devices will significantly slow my descent.
Why do you suggest that having your hand immediately below the device offers less friction? Its about getting a 180degree angle on entrance and exit of the device.
I normally have my hands immediately below the device. Normally around a foot or less. Incidently this is similar to how Petzl recommends you descend.
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squierbypetzl
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Jun 5, 2012, 9:06 AM
Post #65 of 89
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patto wrote: squierbypetzl wrote: 1st run of tests will recreate rope-ends slipping through brake-hand positioned just below the hip (possibly leaving sufficient slack for higher friction devices such as the atcxp to significantly slow the rate of descent, allowing the knot to engage). For the 2nd run I'll use what I consider a less than optimal grip position immediately below the rap device. I expect very few devices will significantly slow my descent. Why do you suggest that having your hand immediately below the device offers less friction? Its about getting a 180degree angle on entrance and exit of the device. I normally have my hands immediately below the device. Normally around a foot or less. Incidently this is similar to how Petzl recommends you descend.
I wasn't suggesting that. However I do believe that coming to an abrupt halt after descending at a fast pace with your hand immediately below the device (I mean an inches or two at the most) may result in a pinched finger with some devices. I give the device more clearance for this reason, keeping my hand about on my hip bone.
As to Petzl's recommendations (which are nearly always solid) I use an ATC to descend, so...
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healyje
Jun 5, 2012, 10:06 AM
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squierbypetzl wrote: Does anyone have hands on experience of whether a backup knot will catch after rapping off the end of a rope?
A backup below the device isn't going to help you if you rap off the end unless you can beam back aboard a rope now traveling a warp speed away from you. And I wouldn't count on a backup above the device being of much use either in the real world if you didn't see the end coming.
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bearbreeder
Jun 5, 2012, 4:49 PM
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the only thing that will help you in that scenario is having knots in the ends ....
as to people never putting knots in the ends ... you guys have way more "confidence" than me if you end up rapping in the dark .... or ya never ever use dark colored ropes 
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sandstone
Jun 5, 2012, 5:46 PM
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squierbypetzl wrote: Does anyone have hands on experience of whether a backup knot will catch after rapping off the end of a rope? ....
I don't use, or recommend a prusik above the device, but once I was curious enough about whether or not it would catch in a "rap off the end of the rope" scenario to set up an experiment. The rig was a prusik (supple 6mm) above an ATC, with about 20+ feet of 10.5 rope. The results surprised me, when the rope end went through the ATC the prusik caught every time. I tried to make it fail (by loosening the prusik, and increasing the speed I went off the end of the rope) but it never did. I had a second rope rigged to catch me if it failed.
Regarding the issue of knots, no knots, bagging, etc., there is no one way that is always best. What is best depends on the situation, and the variables that make that situation unique. If fatigue is high, then knots may very well save you from your biggest threat: yourself. The same is true for situations of high distraction or stress (due to cold, storm, injury, etc.).
If you need thrown ropes to crash through foliage rather than tangle in it, stuff them in a bag and throw the bag down. If high winds threaten to snag your ropes, rap with them in a bag or sling hanging below you, feeding out as you go.
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moose_droppings
Jun 5, 2012, 10:55 PM
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There was a test done on that a while back that I read, I can't find it but I think rgold might have a link to it. It cautioned about grabbing the prusik, which in turn kept it from catching. I guess it's just a reaction to grab it as you go off the line.
Shouldn't ever come to that point or your pushing your luck already IMO.
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habitat
Jun 10, 2012, 3:55 PM
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socalclimber wrote: Whoever commented on the blind trust of middle marks in the rope was 100% correct. Yet another distraction from the true heart of the matter, PAY ATTENTION. I promise, I rap more in one month the most of you will do in a year. It's my job. I'm constantly having to rappel routes first so the client comes down second and I can give them a fireman's belay. I never knot my ends. I pay attention.
Yikes! You are displaying the .noob yourself...
First off, what happens when clients "grip out" and won't rappel? We mostly do belayed rappels at our guide service, for starters...while there is a time and place for a firemans, say something weird like hair gets caught, you are SOL standing on the ground.
Again, it depends, but the AMGA guides courses and exams (SPI, RIC) that I've taken all generally like to consider a belayed rappel better than a "prerig" with firemans; you can do a lot more for a client on "2 lines" (Their rappel and your belaying) than the firemans.
Never knot ropes? again, a very uninformed comment; there is definitely a time and place for it. Retreating from big walls in the middle of the night is the first one that comes to my mind from personal experience.
I agree with the "Pay Attention" part but the great AMGA teachers I had always want to note "variables" and rarely if ever use a "never"....
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rgold
Jun 10, 2012, 6:46 PM
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Moose D mentions the fact that a rappel backup knot above the device may not work because the climber won't release it. I don't have a web link, but do have the original reference. Here's what I wrote in a Supertopo discussion of the same topic:
The biggest problem with the knot above the device is that experiments have shown that a climber who loses control will not release their grip on the friction knot and so it will not function as a safety. [The Tech Troglodyte, Vol. III, No. 2, Winter, 1965, pp. 31-33] The tests were conducted with a belayed rappeller using two ropes, one for the friction knot and the other for the device. The device rope was set up short, so that the rappeller rapped off the end of that rope, thereby losing control of the rappel. In order to stop, they would have to release the friction knot, but even if they knew exactly when they were going off the device rope, the grip reflex was too strong, the system failed to stop the rappeller, and the belay had to be used.
I'd say that in a real situation as opposed to some test set-up, there is absolutely no chance that a friction knot rappel backup will keep you from rappelling off the end of the rope if you don't realize the end or ends are there.
As for knotting the ends of the rope, I belong to the It Depends School of Mountaineering Precautions. I agree with Healje and Socalclimber that actually paying attention basically eliminates all problems.
However, the number of inattention accidents to experienced climbers is very worrisome. I have caught myself watching the turkey vultures soar on the updrafts rather than attending to my rope-ends, although in my defense I knew as much as it is humanly possible to know that they were way longer than necessary and could not possibly be uneven. Still, any kind of inattention in any circumstance is something that could propagate over to more demanding situations, and people who do go off the ends of their ropes obviously do not think they are in a demanding situation.
There are some potential problems with knots in the ends, and not just on windy days. I've only had four rappel hangups in my entire climbing life, and two of them involved getting knotted ropes stuck. Once, the ropes hung below the end of the rappel. I had to rappel to the very end of the ropes, free them, and re-ascend the ropes back to the rap station. A second time, thrown ropes went into a big tree and then the knots jammed in the fork of a branch. I couldn't get them free from above and had to climb the tree with prusik safeties on the ropes.
Both situations were dangerous and very time-consuming. In one case a nighttime descent was one of the results.
If the inattention you might have exercised during the rappel instead occurs when you are pulling the ropes and you forget to unknot the appropriate strand, then you are in a potentially very bad situation in which you might be forced to ascend a rope hoping that the knot you forgot to untie is jammed in the rap ring above and will not pull through it while you are on the rope.
For these and other reasons, I do not think of knots in the ropes as a universal panacea. I usually rappel without any knots. If, as I approach the next station, it looks as if there could be anything dicey about the landing, I'll lock off, pull up the ends, and knot them. If, for some reason such as wind, I'm carrying the rope down with me rather than throwing it, then I'll usually knot the ends, for in this case you get increased security with no potential hang-up penalty.
As for bagging a rope, you really have to knot the ends, since you can't tell where they are until the emerge from the bag. For this reason, I prefer carrying the ropes flaked over the rap device extension (much easier to keep from tangling than the usually recommended saddlebag method) if it is windy and throwing is not advisable.
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sandstone
Jun 10, 2012, 11:50 PM
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rgold wrote: [..] in a real situation as opposed to some test set-up, there is absolutely no chance that a friction knot rappel backup will keep you from rappelling off the end of the rope[..]
I agree with that 100%. My experiments answered a technical question I was curious about, but the setup and methods I used do not carry over into normal climbing practice.
Friction knots will not keep you from going off the ends of the rope, but they can help protect you from a loss of control mid rappel. If you extend the rap device on a short sling, and use a friction knot below the device, then that's a pretty good backup.
The situation of the knot NOT working because you didn't let go of it does not really apply if the friction knot is below the device. If you are gripping the knot (and the rope it surrounds) tightly, then you are going to stop. If for any reason you let go of the knot/rope, then the knot has a very good chance of cinching on the rope and stopping you. I'll take that.
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Gmburns2000
Jun 10, 2012, 11:59 PM
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sandstone wrote: The situation of the knot NOT working because you didn't let go of it does not really apply if the friction knot is below the device. If you are gripping the knot (and the rope it surrounds) tightly, then you are going to stop. If for any reason you let go of the knot/rope, then the knot has a very good chance of cinching on the rope and stopping you. I'll take that.
At the very least it'll jam in the device.
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guangzhou
Jun 11, 2012, 5:32 AM
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I don't know who raps more in one month , but I do know that accidents happen even when precautions are taken. I guess that's why they are called accidents. (I bet my AMGA membership started long before yours did, so let's avoid the "I'm an AMGA Blah Blah Blah." )
Rappeling with clients, or how a guide raps with a clients really depends on the clients, the location, and other factors.
If I were guiding an experienced client at a place like the sea cliffs of Arcadia in Maine, I would most likely not tie knots in the end of my ropes and would most likely give the client a fireman belay. The Same Client and I coming off something on White Horse in New Hampshire and there's a good chance I would tie knots. Rapping off some crack on Glacier Point and I'd make the judgement call on the spot.
An inexperienced client, I would threat differently but most like still not ties knots in the end of my rope at Arcadia because on how much rope is piled in the base.
Me, I avoid rappelling when I can but I still end up on rappel a lot.
Sometime it's coming off multi-pitch routes, sometimes single pitch route, sometimes I might be rap-bolting a new route. Sometimes I descending into canyons to check out new climbing of canyoneering potential. (Hot summers in Asia)
I decide whether or not I need a knot at that time. More often than not, I don't have a knot, but I still use them sometimes. "BARK" Buckle, Anchor, Rap Device, and Knot is what I was taught in the 80s, but I also learned that every situation dictates what you do.
Paying attention is a good first rule to follow. Paying attention is what helps me decide whether or not I need to tie those knots.
No matter how much I pay attention, an accident can happen, maybe someone or something above dislodges a rock that knocks me uncontentious and I slide down my ropes until the knots stop me or not.
I agree that we hear about more and more accidents happening, but more and more people are climbing.
Percentage wise, are accidents up, down, or the same?
Are we hearing about more accidents because of the internet?
Let's face it, the accident above would most likely have gone unnoticed outside of the local cliff 15 to 20 years ago.
Internet forums sure spread news quickly.
So yes, pay attention, that is the best tool on your rack to keep you safe. Every situation dictates what you should or shouldn't do.
(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jun 11, 2012, 5:33 AM)
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JAB
Jun 11, 2012, 9:50 AM
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This thread has mostly been about rapping on multi-pitch, but as the accident shows, it might in fact be more important to tie knots when rapping on short single-pitch routes. Let me explain why.
On multi-pitch, rappelling is obviuosly serious business, and after completing the climbing part you shift focus to fully concentrate on the rappelling part. You know for sure that the rope does not reach the ground, so paying attention to the rope ends come naturally.
However, on single-pitch, you don't really switch focus to rappelling at all. Instead, your focus might be on the TR anchor you just set up (is it extending properly over the edge? no rubbing?), or maybe on the route to your left you are going to try next. On a 40 feet route the rope should easily reach the ground so no need to be super vigilant...
Finally, on single-pitch you seldom have any of the risks with knots as in multi-pitch (strong winds, huge epic if you forgot to untie the knots when pulling) so my take on all of this is that you almost always should tie knots in the rope when rapping on single-pitch, but instead make a decision based on the circumstances on multi-pitch.
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