Do you find that you get to push yourself in climbing while leading trad as much as you do with top-roping? I know the whole leading trad is a worthwhile experience in itselt, but as for actual physical pushing of your abilities, do you just get comfortable doing the hard stuff and trusting your protection like you would on a top-rope?

Now, on vertical splitter cracks like Indian Creek, yes, you can definately push yourself as hard as on TR, and even more because the pitches can be longer.

huh huh. my first trad lead was a 5.8, when I was about a 5.9 sport leader. My first fall was on my second trad lead, a 10b.

oh, okay, I get it. I learned trad the wrong way; at Indian Creek. Granite, stoppers, and runouts still scare the hell out of me.

You should probably lead at least 100 pitches of trad before you get on anything where you think you have any chance of falling.

I am eager to learn Trad, but I have a few questions first. I was climbing yesterday and saw a woman trad-climb this 5.4 layback crack. I spoke with her afterwards and asked what she would normally climb on toprope.. She said she would climb 5.9's.. I asked her if she fould that she could push herself on trad, and she replied that she had to learn a lot more before she would feel confortable..

When she was climbing the 5.4, she was looked comfortable up there and had very little problem at all staying stable.. My question is: For those people leading trad on 5.9's, are they top-rope people who climb 5.11's, and therefore a 5.9 feel's the same way that the 5.4 felt to the woman who climbs 5.9's?

Do you find that you get to push yourself in climbing while leading trad as much as you do with top-roping? I know the whole leading trad is a worthwhile experience in itselt, but as for actual physical pushing of your abilities, do you just get comfortable doing the hard stuff and trusting your protection like you would on a top-rope?

As for pushing it - go for it. I trad lead very close to my sport level (about 1-2 letter grades apart - on a good day I'll onsight 11a or 11b trad, and I don't think I've ever onsighted 11c sport).

1. Anytime you are pushing it, have two bomber pieces between you and disaster.

3. Never get the rope around your leg if you are pushing it.

4. Back off rather than risk a dangerous fall.

One thing I would add that is more of a consideration when placing your own gear - be sure that you understand what the direction of pull will be on your pieces. Don't get lazy - put runners on your gear so it doesn't get yanked.

And a good trad climber is nothing if not bold.

Ergophobe, would you take me climbing sometime?

Hence your name? "Ergo" = "Therefore"; or "consequently",
"phobe" = "one having an unreasonable fear of"

Falling my way up 12- in Indian Creek is no scarier than a well bolted sport climb.

Now, on vertical splitter cracks like Indian Creek, yes, you can definately push yourself as hard as on TR, and even more because the pitches can be longer.

Here's what I've just recently discovered, that seems to work well. 5.10c in four tries!!! :D

Pick a climb, and lead it. (Ground up rules.) Go easy on yourself, sew it up, hangdog, you name it.

Keep workin it with the pro still in. (Pinkpointing.)

When you've got it dialed, pull the pro, in order, and mark where they went with sidewalk chalk.

Redpoint.

First of all, you have to have the right size cam on your rack. In Indian Creek like no other place, that means you must have many many cams, sometimes of the same size, sometimes a variety of sizes.

No cam to fit == runout.

Second, you're carrying the weight of that rack, not a little hula skirt of draws. Harder to push your limit that way.

Third, you have to have the energy/stamina to get the cam in, not overcammed, not tipped out, just right. Maybe it takes more than one try at getting the right size. OK now clip. Don't blow your cool!

Finally, I haven't been to Indian Creek in years, but in the old days everyone knew about this phenomenon called "railroad tracking." This is where the sides of the crack turn to dust under the pressure of the cams when the fall comes. (This is why Fat Cams were invented.) I have even heard of cam-shaped divots being broken off the outside edge of a crack.

Wise Wingate climbers don't let their feet get too far above their last piece, if there is any chance of becoming airborne.

"Leading at Indian Creek is like climbing on a toprope." Yeah, right!

Another thing. Don't sport climb. Yeah, yeah, "it makes you better because you can climb harder because you aren't worried about falling". Bullsh!t. You get better at something by doing it. If you want to get better at trad climbing, then trad climb. All the time you spend sport climbing could have been put to use on a trad climb, and you would feel much better about yourself.

I guess for a good workout thats fine but I would never call THAT actually climbing 5.10c.

Simply because you didn't onsite doesn't mean you didn't climb it. My style of working a route clearly falls within the rules of redpointing. I work a route, and when I'm ready: I climb up it on lead, with no falls, placing pro as I go and using no assistance from my gear. I would actually go as far as calling it a higher standard than most, because the route is always worked on lead, ground up. To flame someone for their climbing technique is immature, especially when their ethics are in line with the "standards." I'm sorry you're not open minded enough to accept alternative techniques, but for the love of God, keep your ignorance to yourself!