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trevor
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May 9, 2003, 12:45 AM
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So we are now running this survey about whether or not the dynamic menu works or not and I am suprised at the number of people who say it doesn't work. It is supposed to work on almost all browsers. Could some of those people who have browsers that didn't work, please tell us what you are running? Netscape/MSIE? Version? Windows 95? Mac?
Also, I'd like to know what you meant by "didn't work." Did you find the page? Did you see a menu? Did the links not work? Did in not expand or collapse. Unfortunately I didn't have much room in the poll question to explain exactly what I was looking for in a response and what you "should" have seen.
In case you haven't voted, click here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/polls/vote.php?pollID=47
Trevor
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jhwnewengland
May 9, 2003, 12:51 AM
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Doesn't work for me in Apple's new browser, Safari. The window doesn't expand. Works fine in Internet Explorer, but I don't use that.
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renobdarb
May 9, 2003, 12:57 AM
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I'm running latest version of Internet Explorer on PC... got zip-o on the menus... :(
-brad
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voltzwgn
May 9, 2003, 1:01 AM
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worked fine for me IE 6.0 sp1 on Win98, will try with XP later
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sheldonjr
May 9, 2003, 1:15 AM
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Workin great on Netscape 7.01 (expands, takes me to the pages) but the little plus minus box thingy's sometimes get messed up. (Don't appear.)
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geckoee
May 9, 2003, 1:38 AM
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Netscape 4.75 (the browser at work) didn't work. all of the menus appeared expanded, but would not "close up" No "-" button present
IE 5.50 works fine.
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thegodfather
May 9, 2003, 1:55 AM
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dynamic menus? what?
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mattiem
May 9, 2003, 3:23 AM
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I am using Opera but not the latest version and i get absolutly nada
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trevor
Anonymous Poster
May 9, 2003, 3:32 AM
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Apparently this menu is supposed to work with:
Internet Explorer 4.0+
Netscape 4.7+
Mozilla 0.9+
Opera 7.0+
Safari is not supported right now.
We may have to have two versions. A simple menu for those poor souls that don't use one of the above versions and a dynamic one for everyone else.
It's just getting REALLY hard to create a menu structure that does the job.
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tradkelly
May 9, 2003, 4:01 AM
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Suggestion:
I was confused when I first saw the poll question, and the link. I moused over things, tooled around, got nothing. Then I pushed the link. Yeah, on that page, their dhtml or js worked (IE6.+whatever). Put in a snippet in that section or frame, or work in an IFRAME or something. Does it work? Well, not if someone doesn't leave the site to try it on someone else's site, and not if they don't have js enabled (on whatever version of whatever script lang their browser supports, if it's a js dyn menu). So, do some browser sniffing and put up an alternate that will, or state that it'll work with X versions and above but not whichever browsers won't! The approach to the question wasn't appropriate. Run a dozen different browser versions on your test nodes (ask some users, some of us webdev) and see what it looks like with screenshots or something. Not something you should ask 11,000+ users if it works with...
I'd use a framed js link page that expands as users push to expand sections, but it's not always considered good style. You're never going to be able to please all of the users, no matter what you do. Putting all of the links on the front page makes it too big, which I assume is what you're trying to get away from. Try four or five beta home pages with linked data instead of just the front (main, real) page, and ask for feedback, including bandwidth, OS, browser version, and results/opinions, and make a decision on it.
I'll use it nevertheless, whatever the interface. But then, I access usenet through a reader. Good luck.
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tradkelly
May 9, 2003, 4:18 AM
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Trevor,
After looking through the author's support info for it, build an alternate page with the script installed for the left-side menus, and put it up as /beta.html or something, and let us try it out. It looks decent and should be stable for most of your users. What the heck. Really, there's not more than an hour or so of coding to put up the alternate front page with all of the regular db links, is there? :) I'll be your huckleberry.
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crack_climber
May 9, 2003, 4:25 AM
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They worked fine for me and I am running Windows XP Professional Series and Internet Explorer 6.0.26
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bsignorelli
May 10, 2003, 9:00 PM
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Works fine for me. I'm running...
Opera: Version 7.10
Build: 2840
Platform: Win32
System: Windows 2000
Java: Not installed
It also works in IE 6.0
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hroldan
May 10, 2003, 9:21 PM
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Hi there, it DIDN'T work on my Mac with Internet explorer 5. SOrry!!
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freudian
May 14, 2003, 3:44 PM
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I use OPERA Browser 7. It works fine with your treeview.
Andrew
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pbjosh
May 14, 2003, 5:03 PM
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I wouldn't be surprised if people voted that it didn't work because of great distaste for dynamic menus. For what it's worth, I think dynamic menus just suck.
josh
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orangekyak
May 14, 2003, 5:23 PM
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In reply to: Try four or five beta home pages with linked data instead of just the front (main, real) page,
This is clearly an intelligent user with some design knowledge (I like this idea because I agree, and I've been suggesting this with little support).
Trevor, I'm going to make the bold statement (and you might know this already) that non-designers don't really know how to design a web page that KEEPS new users. The feedback you are getting is from established users who have been able to sift through the current design flaws of rc.com to find their "my rc.com" within the site's current jumbled configuration (which explains why you've had so many complaints when random features have gone down or been postponed).
It's great that you are getting feedback from these hardy folks, because you're doing a good job listening to your established audience. But when it comes to designing an interface that will get new users involved right away, you need to listen to designers and new users.
I'm hoping to do that mock-up I told you I'd do, but I'm so busy I will not get to until next week.
jeremy
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climbersaurusrex
May 23, 2003, 6:59 AM
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Well you can always sniff the browser's capabilities and do a little php magic... but that's always annoying
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eric
May 24, 2003, 5:28 PM
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Seems like people have hyper-focused on the idea of "dynamic menus".
As someone who does, in part, user interface design and usability testing for a living I'd like to add that:
(a) dynamic menus only work for established/experienced users, not new users. New users consistently fail to navigate successfully. This is not true for applications that follow established patters, only websites.
(b) you will almost never get a comfortable interaction using just DHTML and JS. Timing issues, etc.
(c) you can do both -- organize it so that navigation works whether or not the menus do. I.E. it "de/up-grades" gracefully -- browsers that support it show a dynamic menu but others get passive navigation. But it's pretty damned rare to see anyone do this well.
(d) unless you spend ages doing (c) you alienate a percentage of users (like me) who insist on using their choice of browser.
There is a reason most very high-traffic sites avoid this kind of navigation. Years of testing have shown that the usability problems combined with the technical issues make it too difficult to manage. I've run my own usability tests (thinking that I might find a way) and come to the same conclusion...
I'm not saying it shouldn't ever be used, just that I think there are far easier, more manageable alternatives that would be more appropriate in this context.
Specifically I'm thinking of navigation that expands as you go into sections. E.g., At the top level you only see "Users", but when you go there you get more options. Pretty standard, examples everywhere. A lesson from Apple, etc.: Less is more. Too many options/links are confusing to users.
If anybody cares I'm quite happy to outline a navigation structure for RC.
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ebrmusic
May 28, 2003, 12:43 PM
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In regard to the earlier post about the menu's not working in safari: They do work in the newest version of safari (v74). I have also tried it in camino, formally chimera, and ie for mac. I like the idea of these menus, might clean up the nav a little.
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bluelip
May 28, 2003, 2:37 PM
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Whether or not they work, I would stay away from them. Maybe a better poll would be "Would you like rc.com to implement dynamic menus?" Having sub-menus hidden only adds to the confusion of newcomers and frustration of experienced users.
Mike Coles
'bluelip'
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mathguyclimber
May 28, 2003, 5:36 PM
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Works on Safari 1.0 B2.
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orangekyak
May 28, 2003, 6:22 PM
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Trevor, please listen to khanom. This dude clearly knows his stuff. If he's volunteering his expertise, please let him help.
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ropeburn
Jun 4, 2003, 2:39 AM
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IE 5.1 Macintosh displays your treeview correctly. But takes to long to load and like some other replies in this thread, I just don't like it.
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fightlikeagirl
Jun 6, 2003, 4:11 AM
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i have windows... but my computer's screwing around on me.
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izzy
Jun 23, 2003, 1:33 PM
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Works fine. I'd initially checked "no" on the survey because the new menu page opened in a popunder window, so I didn't see it until I closed down the window I was in.
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scothale
Jun 26, 2003, 8:00 AM
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I am using Mozilla FireBird 0.6, and it works.
Details about browser :
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030515 Mozilla Firebird/0.6
I recommend the FireBird Browser http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firebird/release-notes.html
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urban_rocker
Jun 26, 2003, 10:09 AM
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my IE is f****d so thats why it doesn't work for me, nothing works, only some java, no flash no nothing
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trevor
Anonymous Poster
Jun 26, 2003, 11:41 PM
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khanom, would you mock up a navigation structure for RC.com? Feel free to post it here, start a new thread, or PM/email me.
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pixelguru
Jul 14, 2003, 9:19 PM
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I'm also using Safari (Safari v 1.0 on Mac OS X 10.2.6) and it works fine for me. Are you sure everything is up to date?
It also works in Camino on OS X (v 0.7)
Holy cow! It even works in Explorer 5.2 on Mac OS X! That's rare.
Very cool too...
several clicks later...
you're kidding me - it's free???
Please excuse me while I do some downloading.
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valeberga
Jul 28, 2003, 5:56 AM
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Well, yes, it EXPANDS correctly, but sometimes the minus sign (-) graphic disappeared on some of the branches while I was trying to collapse the menu.
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ofieldstream
Aug 6, 2003, 10:40 PM
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Well they worked fine on WIN 2000 and IE 5+ ... but it took me a devil-of-a-time to get to this reply area! :P
Ofieldstream
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sspssp
Aug 6, 2003, 11:10 PM
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I'm in the "don't like dynamic menus camp."
First, I don't like them (pretty obnoxious). Second, I have an old computer at home (with old software) and I don't like continually being forced to upgrade with new versions of software. It's a pain to download and install new browsers (over a slow/unreliable phone connection) and my old computer is a "resource limited" machine.
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majicman17
Aug 7, 2003, 3:04 PM
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I have been doing web design for over five years, and I know how difficult it is to cover all the browsers. Unfortunatly dozens of different browsers exist.
I believe this a javascript menu, so you have to be careful. Just because a browser supports javascript (and the menu) that doesn't mean it will display the menu. The user has to have javascript "turned on". Many users still worry about security, so they do not turn it on.
With that said, you can't please everyone all the time.
If you are looking for a more standard approach, you could use DHTML, CSS, or Flash. The latest browsers support these, and you shouldn't have a problem.
Thats my two cents.
Seth
http://seth.meranda.org
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tradman
Aug 7, 2003, 3:21 PM
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Cover all the browsers? Not possible, and it's a complete waste of time too.
I know everyone means well, but you're getting a poor cross-section of your user base here. Any time I've done this type of exercise (and that's a lot of times), I've got the same results as you're getting here - most of those who respond are the sort of spanners who run opera 1.0 on mac OS 8 and then say it's unfair to make them upgrade. These are not the prevalent demographic. Anyone who knows even the basics of designing for the web knows that IE5 on PC is the most common system by a long way. Those users just stay quiet is all.
The menu looks great, a first pass through the syntax checker in my studio says the compatibility should be better than average - some 4+, most 5+ and all 6+. Looks good, easy to use, in your position I would only think twice if it looked like it could be tricky to implement.
And for what it's worth, you've been a lot more patient with the whiners than I would have been! :)
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rwaltermyer
Aug 7, 2003, 3:54 PM
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i agree.
and I think it has the potential to really simplify the huge left column bar. That way you only have to look at things you really care about.
Although I hate that the users tab changes from the main page to other pages.
randy
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bluelip
Aug 7, 2003, 4:34 PM
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In reply to: i agree. and I think it has the potential to really simplify the huge left column bar. That way you only have to look at things you really care about. randy
I don't find the left panel cumbersome. I like being able to just click on what I want instead of having to navigate menus. I blow enough of my employers time on this site as it is. He'd appreciate my ability to click on what I want directly.
If you want only to look at things you care about, make the panel customizable. In the user's profile, allow them to select what sections they want. Heck while you're there, allow them to customize the order also. Not terribly difficult to script It would require extra cpu cycles though.
While we're adding options for the users, give us the option of disabling the 'target' attribute of links shown in forum posts. It's a pain having a new window popup.
Mike Coles
'bluelip'
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bluelip
Aug 7, 2003, 4:37 PM
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While I''m bitchin', here's something else. On the main page, in the top left corner, it says "Hello, Michael" (or thereabouts), while in the forums, it says "Hello, bluelip".
Is this a feature? :wink:
Mike Coles
'bluelip'
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