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maculated
Jun 16, 2003, 4:40 PM
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I was out practicing self rescue techinques at Indian Rock yesterday. Confounded the boulderers to nothing else. One guy's like, "What's the giant pack for?" I told him I didn't have a crash pad, so it would have to do.
Anyway, a lot of folks were totally entertained by me leaping off rappels with autoblocks and stuff. I never really did much practice with these things (except learn the knots) until now, and I realize the value of knowing these things and how to apply them to situations. That said, seems like I don't know anyone else who trad climbs and has either taught themselves or practiced these techniques. Why not?
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rodeomountain
Jun 16, 2003, 5:01 PM
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I totally agree. I think everyone should learn how to self rescue before doing any serious climbing. I read up on it and tought myself but I can't seem to find anyone else that has learned or cares to learn.
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hammer_
Jun 16, 2003, 5:28 PM
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There are far to many people who climb that don't have even the most basic knoledge of self rescue technics. Last febuary two guys were climbing grade 3 ice at the Junkyards (Canmore, Canada). The leader fell about 10m and broke his leg, it was a compound fracture. Since the ice screw the leader came to rest on was around 40m up the belayer could not lower him. Niether of them knew how to escape the belay so they just sat there in that position and waited for some to wander by. Well around an hour later the leader is still hanging there and still bleeding, luckily this is a popular area and someone did come by and was able to get help. IMO nobody should be even toproping outdoors without atleast knowing how to escape a belay and I don't mean read a book and call it good, they need to do what you did and practice these technics. I don't know why people feel these technics are not important enough to learn and practice, I for one would sure hate myself if I was responsible for my partners death due to ignorance. Anyway what were you doing with the autoblock, backing up a rappel?
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maculated
Jun 16, 2003, 5:56 PM
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You clip an autoblock to your leg loop on the rappel extension (not above, below, on brake end) when lowering with a victim. If you let go, it ensures you brake using your friction device.
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tradclimber2
Jun 16, 2003, 6:15 PM
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In reply to: I was out practicing self rescue techinques at Indian Rock yesterday............That said, seems like I don't know anyone else who trad climbs and has either taught themselves or practiced these techniques. Why not?
I could think of MANY reasons WHY people do not at least learn some basic self-rescue techniques, most would not be very 'positive' reasons, however. Simple techniques like how to use a prussik can get you out of ALL sorts of muck-ups.
The OTHER important thing, that you mentioned, is the practice issue. How many people who HAVE taken a self-rescue class actually take time to practice regularly? My 'practice' is teaching it 2-3 times a year, and I also practice some of the techniques when outdoors. BUT, I am just an old f-rt with a very good memory (just very short) so I NEED to practice a lot. More power to those who do not need to practice. I hope they are ready when (not if) they need their skills.
Practice really does make (closer to) perfect, and does make the process more familiar which = faster and more efficient, both very important in a rescue situation.
Ben
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hammer_
Jun 16, 2003, 6:21 PM
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A Klemheist works really well for that aswell. Use caution using this sort of backup when the ropes are iced up, it tends to jam. One of my partners used an autoblock as a backup for a rappel last winter and the thing jammed so bad he had to cut it off the rope. hahaha
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paganmonkeyboy
Jun 16, 2003, 6:22 PM
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Excellent reminder - I haven't taken the book outside and run through it all in over a year. If you get the falcon press book and take it to kinkos you can get a nice coiled spring binding so it stays open and lays flat to any pages you want - tie on a string to clip it and yer all set :)
It's worth pointing out that you should try to get your climbing partners to come out and learn it with you sometime - it won't do any good if the only person that knows what they are doing is the one hanging unconcious...
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data118
Jun 16, 2003, 6:24 PM
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I bought the Self Rescue book (the Falcon Climbing Series) and was practicing on the lead wall at my gym this weekend. Taught myself how to escape a belay, and how to lower off when you're pass the halfway mark on your rope.
The more you know and practice, the better. 8)
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teagueblue
Jun 16, 2003, 6:36 PM
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Do you think professional instruction is critical for self-rescue to do it correctly? Is there an outstanding reference?
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maculated
Jun 16, 2003, 6:53 PM
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Professional instruction is always a good idea if you don't have anyone around you to teach you. Kind of like getting into climbing. The two outstanding references for self-rescue/first response stuff are: Falcon Guide's Self Rescue (how to series), and the Outward Bound Wilderness First Responder handbook.
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one900johnnyk
Jun 16, 2003, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: I bought the Self Rescue book (the Falcon Climbing Series) and was practicing on the lead wall at my gym this weekend. Taught myself how to escape a belay, and how to lower off when you're pass the halfway mark on your rope. The more you know and practice, the better. 8)
i just picked that one up too. i can't wait to try some of the things but i just need more time on my hands to do it.
to answer the question, i think most people don't teach themselves these things b/c they were never a boy scout. neither was i, and i was lucky, but once you're in a situation where you would love to have memorized that book cover to cover, you will. until then though, most people don't bother. i didn't....
teague: get that falcon book called Self Rescue, it's pretty easy to follow and well diagramed. no need for an instructor, if you can make yourself learn something from a book...
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teagueblue
Jun 16, 2003, 7:04 PM
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That's cool. Thanks.
How many people also really prep themselves in first aid that would be serious enough to handle real bleeding, compound fractures or stuff like that? This weekend my partner and I were thinking about all kinds of first aid scenarios and how we would handle them, while at the same time being able to get help. I must say we didn't have too many encouraging answers.
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dirtineye
Jun 16, 2003, 7:31 PM
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OK, I'm not evern going to read the other posts, cause the first one scares me bad enough to just start typing now.
The reason yo don't teach yourself self rescue is because you have a fool for a teacher.
The books do not tell you everything.
The books do not tell you everything.
Did you get that?
here is is again:
The books do not tell you everything.
OK, I love good climbing books, dont't get me wrong, and I'm not trying to flame you.
BUT, rescue is something you learn best by reading the books, THEN taking a class from an real AMGA certified guide.
THEN you can practice.
I hope you backed up the stuff you wsere practicing your falls on. IN a well taught course, ther eare top rope backups on some ofhte more dangerous parts.
An auto block will block nothing if it is not set or has too few wraps on it.
Backup knots that will not keep you off the ground are worthless.
If you tie a mariner knot with too short of a sling, you may lose control of it as you try to untie and slowle realeasse the load, and instead of getting a smooth transiiotn, you could get into real trouble.
Supervision can stop you from hurting yourself in the learning process.
I hope that will convince you and anyone else to NOT teach themselves self rescue. read the book by all means, learn the knots, then shell out some cahse for professional instruction.
And before you ask, yes, all of the examples I gave are from real experience.
And ABSOLUTELY, every climber should know self and leader rescue. Congratulations for learning stuff that could save your or someone else's life.
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maculated
Jun 16, 2003, 9:47 PM
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Just to clarify, I HAVE had instruction. I didn't say books were be all and end all. Not going to respond to the rest of this because it wasn't all directed at me.
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dirtineye
Jun 16, 2003, 10:25 PM
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When I saw the part about you "leaping off" rappells, I went into UH-OH mode, sorry.
Yarding down, bouncing down and speed rapping with sudden stops are all BAD. I'd put leaping off in that same category.
Someone else posted that they rap very slowly, to the point that it irritated their partner. Rappelling is dangerous, and putting the system under more force than body weight is not a good idea.
The auto block, or some other backup, is not just for rescue work. If you have seen those posts that start off, "So-and-so lost control of their rappell, and now they are a) dead, b) seriously injured, you'll start thinking that always backing up your rappell is a good idea.
I can think of at least three bad rappell accidents that happened recently where an auto block set correctly would have saved 2 lives and one long hospital stay.
I'm not picking on you Maculated. Just don't want to see you become masticated hehe.
As it turned out, lots of other folks seem to think all they need is the book, so maybe they will take the advice and get instruction as well.
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maculated
Jun 16, 2003, 10:33 PM
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I tend to phrase stuff hyperbolically. I had an anchor going from the ground clove hitched and then running through a bomber nut. The 'leaping' I did was maybe three feet off the deck. There was also frantic running and leaping on the ground to test my nuts out. I told you the boulderers were entertained. I just wanted to see where they sat at.
>As it turned out, lots of other folks seem to think all they need is the >book, so maybe they will take the advice and get instruction as well.
True that. I would never advocate someone learn to climb from the "How to Rock Climb" series. Its a good supplement, but nothing like field work.
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tradclimber2
Jun 16, 2003, 10:48 PM
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In reply to: As it turned out, lots of other folks seem to think all they need is the book, so maybe they will take the advice and get instruction as well.
Dirt, you are so correct here. Some people CAN pick up a book, read thru it, understand it, and then do the stuff presented just fine. These people also can pick up a musical instrument and instantly start playing. I am SOOO envious of those people. But fortunately, these people are very few and far between. Most of us do good to try and figure out the instruction books for our VCR/DVD's. Having someone (someone COMPETENT, that is) TEACH you the skills is absolutely a must - unless you fall in that SMALL category I mentioned above. THEN, use the book as a reference and refresher. Practice practice practice. Then hope beyond all hope that you never ever have to use the skills you learned. Come on folks, dish out some of that money you have burning in your pockets and take a GOOD self-rescue class with good references from prior students. The extra #5 Camalot can wait a few more months.
Ben
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bsafe
Jun 17, 2003, 1:00 AM
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The 6 P's:
Plenty of practice prevents piss poor performance
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jammin
Jun 17, 2003, 11:24 AM
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I wasa involved in a rescue about a year ago. My friend and I were climbing and next to us some dude fell and knocked himself out. When the belayer tried to lower him he ended up on a ledge. My friend and I grabbed our gear ran over and essentailly rescued his partner for him. So many people were standing around not knowing what to do. It was pathetic. Learn to rescue. A descent course will be a day and a half to two days and will probably be the bet investment you'll ever do in climbing.
THe guy we rescued was fine, just dazzed and stunned.
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tradclimber2
Jun 18, 2003, 12:55 AM
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In reply to: THe guy we rescued was fine, just dazzed and stunned.
hmmm, Sounds like the makins of a great song! Maybe change the title just a bit........................ :)
Good going, jammin. You can climb next to me anytime.
Ben
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kevlar
Jun 18, 2003, 4:06 PM
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what is the going rate to teach self rescue???
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sharpie
Jun 18, 2003, 4:36 PM
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If anybody is in the Denver area, the Mountain Miser at Broadway and Hampton is giving a free self-resuce clinic tonight (June 18th) at 7:30p.
http://mountainmiser.com/news.shtml
:wink:
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dirtineye
Jun 18, 2003, 4:44 PM
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The rate around the south is around 150 a day, but it is a full day, with total hands on work, a knot class the night before, and at least one instructor per leader/belayer pair. Taught by AMGA certified guide. You get a discount for two days.
Check out the challenge school in atlanta, they're on the web.
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pico23
Jun 19, 2003, 1:49 AM
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In reply to: That said, seems like I don't know anyone else who trad climbs and has either taught themselves or practiced these techniques. Why not?
I have taught myself and my partner. It's all quite simple once you learn to escape the belay with a releasable knot. Beyond that you just use the rest of your trad climbing skills (anchors, prussiking, rappelling). Not that hard but it looks it in the self rescue book. Just break it down and learn it.
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puma
Jun 20, 2003, 7:08 AM
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Good for you Maculated to get out there and practice this stuff. I always have a piece of cord wrapped on my leg loop so it's always there when I need it. And I leave it there! A few times I've taken it off because I was going to the gym and forgot to put it back...got outside, reached down and... Oh, and I don't extend my rap device, my system works fine without doing so...I guess it depends with each person.
Phil also mentioned a way to increase friction w/ two climbers on one device, here are others ways to increase friction. ie. add an extra locker, extra wraps w/ the autoblock, supermunter, flip the Trango Pyramid.
Books are fine for familiarization but if you have the time and a little extra money a course goes a long way because you learn more efficient ways to do things.
Lg
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socalclimber
Jun 20, 2003, 12:18 PM
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I'll bet PUMA knows how to escape a belay with a single sling. One of the cooler things I learned a few years back! Seriously, I see this all the time and it makes me cringe. If you are gonna practice this stuff, setup a top rope anchor, load up a pack with 20 pounds of gear, and use the pack as your victim. Do everything from the ground. I have seen so many people "practicing" these techniques with a live person on the rope. "Ok Joe, try and unload the system".
The best bet would be to get some instruction. It's too easy to screw up the systems and get hurt.
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outdoorsie
Jun 20, 2003, 1:14 PM
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My fiance and I have recently started trad climbing, and while we've had a great experience with a guide to help us just get started, we haven't seen or even heard of anybody who teaches self rescue courses.
Regardless, my fiance has been manic about learning this stuff. The falcon guides for Anchors has some stuff in the back about self rescue. We've got the big book on order and we intend on practice escaping the belay in the gym before we go climbing over the 4th.
Does anybody know of any certified courses taught in the midwest? Indiana/Illinois/Ohio/Kentucky?
Thanks!
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socalclimber
Jun 20, 2003, 1:27 PM
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Check the AMGA's web site. Any certified AMGA guide will be able to teach a proper course in self rescue. I don't normaly see self rescue course advertised as much as normal classes. Just tell the guide service what your after and I am sure you will have no problems.
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beyond_gravity
Jun 20, 2003, 1:44 PM
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In reply to: Check the AMGA's web site. Any certified AMGA guide will be able to teach a proper course in self rescue. I don't normaly see self rescue course advertised as much as normal classes. Just tell the guide service what your after and I am sure you will have no problems.
Thats what you would think. All the guides should know rescue, weather they are organized enough to explain and teach it is another question.
I took a rescue course that had two intructors, one was awesome, and by the end of the course I felt like I knew the stuff better then the other guy.
basic stuff I think everyone should know
- How to tie, and tie off a munter hitch (!)
- tieing off a belay/escaping
- Prussiking
- Pairs rappel
- Counter-balance Rappel
- put a chest harness on anyone being resued
The recues i've practiced have been pretty complex (leader falls 25m above you, and 20m to the side) but they all come back to the basics and end up being suprisingly not complex.
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socalclimber
Jun 20, 2003, 2:03 PM
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As I stated in another thread: "In the top 5 things that make a good guide, climbing is #6 on the list". Teaching skills, organizational skills, people skills all top the list of what makes a good guide. I know a ton of AMGA guides, all are good solid guides. Maybe the one guide you had was an apprentice.
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paulc
Jun 20, 2003, 3:26 PM
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In reply to: Phil also mentioned a way to increase friction w/ two climbers on one device, here are others ways to increase friction. ie. add an extra locker, extra wraps w/ the autoblock, supermunter, flip the Trango Pyramid. Lg
Puma;
What is a supermunter? Quick google search turns up nothing. How does this differ from a reg. munter?
Thanks
Paul
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pico23
Jun 20, 2003, 4:28 PM
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In reply to: Supervision can stop you from hurting yourself in the learning process. I hope that will convince you and anyone else to NOT teach themselves self rescue. read the book by all means, learn the knots, then shell out some cahse for professional instruction. And before you ask, yes, all of the examples I gave are from real experience.
Bullsh!t!!!!!! No really, anyone can figure that stuff out. You need to know exactly 2 knots you didn't already know (the mariner and the mule). You are trying to place every climber into a mold. some people work well on their own from a book and others need hands on instruction. Don't throw the two into the same learning style I don't think hands on is always best, when I learn from a book I take my time, I practice in my apartment learning all the basics from a beam on my ceiling and then I practice over and over before it goes outside. At that point the knots are second nature and all I am doing is adding anchors and prussiking to the picture which any trad leader should be able to do. Once outside I practice a few feet off the ground and then once that is good I take it higher. A top rope belay is a good idea as well but admitedly I didn't use one, although I'd highly recommend it.
Regardless, self rescue skills should be practiced a few times a year. Learning them once in a AMGA certified course isn't gonna save your life. Think back to all that crap you learned in high school and college. I believe even the smartest students retained about 30% of it all, 30% of self rescue isn't going to get you or your partner off a climb if something goes wrong. Keep that in mind when you are shelling out $100+ for guided instruction that will still need to be practiced on your own without the help of a guide.
Let me just summarize by saying it isn't necessarily a matter of intelligence but just different learning styles. So if your learning style suits picking up a book and learning seemingly complex techniques on your own then go for it, if you get flustered and can't figure it all out then learn from a guide or another experienced climber. Personally, the first time I read self rescue I'd been leading for a few years and it still blew my mind. I put it down and then came back to it a few weeks later but this time went step by step and I realized it was actually quite simple and only used a few new techniques that I didn't already know. It's hard to imagine getting stuck on a climb just because you don't know the mariner or mule knot when you have all the other skills to get down.
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pico23
Jun 20, 2003, 4:45 PM
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In reply to: I wasa involved in a rescue about a year ago. My friend and I were climbing and next to us some dude fell and knocked himself out. When the belayer tried to lower him he ended up on a ledge. My friend and I grabbed our gear ran over and essentailly rescued his partner for him. So many people were standing around not knowing what to do. It was pathetic. Learn to rescue. A descent course will be a day and a half to two days and will probably be the bet investment you'll ever do in climbing. THe guy we rescued was fine, just dazzed and stunned.
Seems like that was the correct thing to do. It depends on the situation but certainly you didn't expect the belayer to rig a rescue anchor, prussik to his partner, build another anchor, lower break down the first anchor, clean the gear, ascend to the victim, rappel down, when all you had to do was get to the ledge?
If you've practiced self rescue you know it's time consuming and probably a last resort in most cragging situations. If other climbers are nearby the best thing to do is call for help. I think placing your victim in danger trying show off your knowledge is stupid. At a crowded crag lock off the belay and call for help. That is definitely going to be fastest and probably safest.
You deserve a pat on the back for getting someone down safely but don't rag on the belayer for doing the right thing in that situation.
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socalclimber
Jun 20, 2003, 5:05 PM
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Well, I think BULLS*!T is a bit strong don't you?? When I first read this initial post, I thought to myself: "Hmmmm not much experiance here, she probably shouldn't be out trying to teach herself this particular skill set alone." Anybody can run out, buy a book, and teach themselves something. One of the most disturbing thing that has been missing in every post on this thread is the ability to assess risk.
Risk assessment does not come from a book, it comes from time on the rock. Lot's and lot's of time. Just because you can tie a couple of extra knots, and follow directions does not mean you can properly assess the potential risks involved in a given rescue situation. Do you know how to decide if the flake your stuffing cams into to build a secondary belay is expando???? Are you solid enough to know lousy placements from good ones?? Would you know how to equalize the whole mess into something stable??? What if you need an anchor that handles an upward pull and couldn't find a suitable placement for an oppositional piece.
Being a leader doesn't mean you know what your doing with regards to gear placements, much less risk assessment.
Maculated has only been climbing for 2 years. Most likely she just doesn't have the time and experience on the rock to make those assessments. I am not knocking her, it's just a fact. I say good for her for just trying, but I also believe at her current experience level a guided course would be far better in the long run.
maculated said:
"There was also frantic running and leaping on the ground to test my nuts out."
This is a not a bad thing, but it clearly indicates to me lack of experience. When I place gear, I know if it's good or not. Hiring a guide in this instance may be the best, this way she gets to ask all those nagging question that a book can never answer.
YMMV,
Robert
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maculated
Jun 20, 2003, 5:22 PM
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In my defense:
"When I place gear, I know if it's good or not."
Me, too. The point here is that, most gear I place doesn't come under any kind of bodyweight or falls. You're right, I've only been climbing for 2 years, which is why I did try to load my pieces at odd angles and create zippers to watch affects. Knowing why it happens is different than watching it for me.
I recently had an episode where a leader climbing on gear I'd set took a fall and it didn't hold. Witnesses say they were good, but it was the way the force was loading the nuts. I don't believe that, so I decided to test it out.
I'm not going to sit here and explain why I do things all day. My post was asking why most people aren't taught to learn self-rescue. It was a thought that occurred to me because boulderers were watching me in amusement, not because I'd never learned.
I worked up in Yosemite, I climbed with guides, am friends with guides, and while I appreciate everyone looking out for me, I would rather this be less about me and more about educating everyone. Okay? Okay.
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pico23
Jun 20, 2003, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: Maculated has only been climbing for 2 years. Most likely she just doesn't have the time and experience on the rock to make those assessments. I am not knocking her, it's just a fact. I say good for her for just trying, but I also believe at her current experience level a guided course would be far better in the long run. maculated said: "There was also frantic running and leaping on the ground to test my nuts out." This is a not a bad thing, but it clearly indicates to me lack of experience. When I place gear, I know if it's good or not. Hiring a guide in this instance may be the best, this way she gets to ask all those nagging question that a book can never answer. YMMV, Robert
Robert,
I agree with you to a point but I disagree with the fact that many people feel a 1 day guided course gives you judgement experience. The fact is guided courses are good but they are also bad. You take a course and have this false sense of confidence that you know more then you do because a guide taught you. Am I wrong? I don't think I am. Have you ever seen someone do something wrong (at least for that situation) and hear, "Well thats what the guide taught me." The fact is no matter what you don't have the judgment if you've only been climbing for a short while (or maybe you do, so I don't pigeon hole everyone into one group) whether you learn from a guide or a book. The guide isn't gonna be on every climb with you and not all situations you get into are going to be as controlled as your guided lesson. At some point you do need to start making the judgment calls on your own. I think two years of climbing is long enough to start to be able to make those calls for many people, but again, I don't want to make an over generalization for everyone. Really, I don't even think it is years on the rock but days and pitches that need to be looked at for someones experience.
Also, in my post I do state that the rest are skills that any trad leader should know. If you are leading you should be competent at placing gear and building anchors (including multi-directional). If you are not then self rescue isn't gonna be what gets you killed. Your running protection and your belays are subjected to similar (if not stronger) forces every pitch and every potential fall. If you can't build a good anchor you need to get better before you kill both you and your belayer. I climbed with someone who consistently build poor anchors even after leading for a bit. Rest assured I don't climb with them anymore.
I firmly believe it is a personal choice to go guided or not and not some hard rule that needs to be applied to every climber.
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socalclimber
Jun 20, 2003, 6:02 PM
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I certainly don't disagree with you. And, no, the guide won't likely be around for every pitch someone climbs. I just think self rescue skills fall into a more advanced skill set than just setting up anchors. Maculated, I didn't mean for this to turn towards you, my appologies. Since I am the principle reason for the thread drift, I will attempt to bring us back on topic.
Why don't people learn self-rescue, probably a little bit of complancency, maybe some ignorance, maybe a litte arrogance. The, "it won't happen to me!", or "it's only 5 pitches at 5.8, how hard could it be??" wouldn't be to out of line. I run the volunteer Search And Rescue team for Joshua Tree NP, I can assure you, we seem some pretty bizzare things around here :shock:
Robert
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dirtineye
Jun 21, 2003, 12:22 PM
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Bullsh!t yourself. What exactly are you saying is bullsh!t anyway? could you be a little more clear on that? ARe yo usaying that the tree examples I gave from my own experience didn't happen? Yes, there is Bullsh!t here, all from your end though. Your comment that you only need the munter and the mule in addition to the common climbing knots is just idiotic, provbing that you really do need instruction and supervision befoer you hurt yourself or someone else.
You teach yourself rescue, you have a fool for a teacher.
One more time, EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW IS NOT ON THE BOOKS.
One last thing Pico, YOu are the one saying that a one day course gives experience needed, etc, NOT anyone else. You just made up a windmill to tilt at pal. Try responding to what people actually say, instead of puting words in their mouths.
I don;t know maculated at all, but she could have climbed more in two years that n many do in 5. Maybe her choice of words was unfortunate, maybe she is a knucklehead. Like she says , though, the point of the post is not to find every possible flaw in how she stated her post, rather the point is that self and leader reascue are important skills and that you should get insttuction read the books and practice. That view is certainly the one I respect. I'd rather climb with an 'inexperienced' Climber like mac that someone that thinks they know everything and was too good to get instruction and doesn't even know the need for knots like the mariner or the kleimheist.
Mac, see my tag line about how to deal with idiots. You are so right that most of our gear is never really tested. The comment you got from people that the pieces were good but that it was the way the forces worked that pulled em is kind of funny. It's not a bad idea to question such placements and such ideas, which is just what you did.
The effect of rope drag on 'good' pieces is a great topic. The idea about rope drag and sling length is that the only pieces that should take stress in a fall are the top and the bottom ( anchor or directional) pieces, and that the rest should have free hanging slings. If hte slings on the intermediate pieces are too short, then the pieces on them will get an outward pull. This can happen if the leader hangs, or when the second hangs. There is a good diagram of this in MTFOTH, but you can see it yourself at just about any crag.
Even without any hanging that puts non-downward forces on a short slung piece, a piece on a short sling can walk around just from the rope jostling it around. You can test this easily.
About the only climbing two years bit, for all you know, mac could have climbed hundreds of days in two years. And all experience is not good experience. I know some folks with 30 years 'experience' doing stuff wrong and lucking out.
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paganmonkeyboy
Jun 21, 2003, 6:33 PM
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ok. after much reading of this thread, and actually going out and practicing a bit with the book again- I just signed myself and my main partner up for a self rescue clinic. Its only a one day deal, but it is a start.
Some people have suggested going out and trying it out of the book with a nice heavy weight on the rope. Do this. Trust me - you will start to think a course would be a *good* thing. It is not anywhere as easy as it looks, and handling live weight, the weight of a partner, throws a whole new curve into the mix. The thought of being stuck in the middle of nowhere on some sick alpine route, or just 5 minutes from the car clipping bolts, and *not* being extremely competent in self rescue gives me the shivers. Yeah, plan A is not get hurt, but plan B is always going to be get everyone out safe.
.02$, ymmv....
oh, and Happy Solstice ! Summer is here - Go outside and climb something !
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pico23
Jun 21, 2003, 9:11 PM
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In reply to: Bullsh!t yourself. What exactly are you saying is bullsh!t anyway? could you be a little more clear on that? ARe yo usaying that the tree examples I gave from my own experience didn't happen? Yes, there is Bullsh!t here, all from your end though. Your comment that you only need the munter and the mule in addition to the common climbing knots is just idiotic, provbing that you really do need instruction and supervision befoer you hurt yourself or someone else. You teach yourself rescue, you have a fool for a teacher. One more time, EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW IS NOT ON THE BOOKS.
Well I am saying bullsh!t that you can't learn without guided instruction. I seem to do just fine as did a previous partner I had (he's still alive and well just living in England). I'm not saying any of your examples are bullsh!t I am just saying that you seem to think everyone is only capable of being force fed techniques first hand and I think if you've been leading, building anchors, and climbing for a few years self rescue should be something you are capable of learning with minimal difficulty. As far as not knowing self rescue, I don't know, I hope I can put it all together if the need ever arises but in practice it's worked so far. No one has died, fallen, gotten hurt, and all the anchors, knots, rappels, ect. have all worked. I stand by the fact all you need to learn is the mariner and a mule knot. I already knew all the other knots (munters, cloves, 8's, prussiks). And as I said when I first looked at it as a whole system it blew my mind, I went back and broke it down into steps and holy crap it wasn't that hard. I never advocated anyone use my learning style, I just said not everyone needs your learning style. If you want to argue that point feel free, but that is the only point I was arguing.
You took a hard line stance towards your opinion and I'm saying that it's just that: your opinion. If you are intelligent and motivated and learn well on your own you can learn a lot from a book. There are many great climbers who taught themselves much of what they initially knew and more but you have to be sure you can learn like that because the end result might not be some grand biography but a sad obituary.
So my only arguement for the record is some people can learn quite well from a book and despite the complicated appearance of self rescue it is really a lot of what you already know from trad climbing.
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hammer_
Jun 22, 2003, 12:06 AM
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So my only arguement for the record is some people can learn quite well from a book and despite the complicated appearance of self rescue it is really a lot of what you already know from trad climbing.
Should'nt you learn self rescue technics before you start to climbing trad?
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pico23
Jun 22, 2003, 4:31 AM
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In reply to: So my only arguement for the record is some people can learn quite well from a book and despite the complicated appearance of self rescue it is really a lot of what you already know from trad climbing.
Should'nt you learn self rescue technics before you start to climbing trad?
Thats a good question (i'm not being a wise ass). I'd venture to say that most people don't learn self rescue at the start of their trad climbing. And I do think if they did it would be extremely complicated regardless of whether they learned with a AMGA guide or a book. Essentially, you'd be taking a crash course in trad climbing (anchors, knots, prussiks, rapelling, ect all in a few days). A lot of that is experience that takes a while to develope so it would be tough to learn it before you actually started climbing trad.
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dirtineye
Jun 23, 2003, 2:44 AM
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The argument is not about learning style, it is about the FACT that you can't learn things that are not in the book from the book.
And you still seem to have no idea of what a mariner is for. OR the pitfalls in using one that are NOT in the book.
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pico23
Jun 23, 2003, 8:19 AM
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In reply to: And you still seem to have no idea of what a mariner is for. OR the pitfalls in using one that are NOT in the book.
I'm not sure where you came up with this statement. But I'm sure it took a while. Anyway, the mariner is for belaying from a ship while climbing sea side cliffs :wink: .
and there aren't really any pitfalls if it is used properly, actually, beyond belaying from a ship :wink: , I use it for my rappel backup above the belay device. Works great and eliminates the worry of above device problems. If I lose control the prussik locks up and I simply lock off and release the knot. I didn't even need a book for that because to the best of my knowledge this technique is not in any book as I created it on my own. So you are right, a book can't tell you everything.
Anyway, I really don't have any desire to sit here and see who can p!ss farther. It's meaningless so I concede defeat.
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the_pirate
Jun 25, 2003, 8:16 PM
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I gotta agree with pico here. Back when I was just starting to lead trad some buddys and I decided that we needed to have a system to deal with any unforseen occurrences that we might encounter while climbing. So off we went to our local crag laden with ropes and gear. We took turns trying to come up with worst emergency situations we could think of. We then set about figuring out how we would deal with such situations. Leader rescue, escaping the belay, hoisting and lowering disabled climbers. No instructors, no guides, no books, just a couple of physics geeks at the crag. A fool for an instructor..... I don't think so dirtyeye. When I finally read up on self rescue techniques, it didn't really surprise me that many of the techniques that we "invented" were being recommended. I definitely learned more from figuring it out on my own than if I had taken some quickie course. Some people can learn it from books. Some can figure it out on their own. Some people, with all the instruction in the world, can never quite grasp how to thread a figure-8 follow through.
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sspssp
Jun 25, 2003, 8:53 PM
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I'll chime in on this thread.
Reading about self-rescue and taking a rescue course is a great idea. One thing to watch out for, it doesn't do a lot of good to learn techniques that require equipment you don't usually carry. Some courses and books are good about this and some are not. Go check out the "going light" thread and then ask what sort of rescue could be done with that equipment. That is going to be the reality for most people in most situations.
Starting with a 20lb pack is not such a bad idea, but a 20lb pack is pretty easy to manhandle. If you have a wall bag, fill it up with 180lbs and try it.
You can practice with a "live" person, but everything should always be backed up. One way to do this is find a crack climb that has a bolted anchor, have the "leader/victim" set pro and hang on the lead rope (the belayer has them under tension). Have another, seperate rope that is tied to the belayer/rescuer that goes through the bolted anchor and then back to the "vicitm" who belays this rope with a gri-gri. This way the "victim" can keep this rope slack, but if the "rescuer" screws up in any way, both the rescuer and the victim are backed up by this other rope. The extra rope adds an extra complication, but so what. Another option would be to find a couple of other people who are interested in self-rescue and have them independently belay the victim and rescuer. Also when practicing with an actual person, start out no more than eight or ten feet off the ground.
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dirtineye
Jun 25, 2003, 9:14 PM
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Well Poor old pico really doesn't get the idea of the mariner, I think he is confusing it with another knot.
It's not surprising that you woudl think as he does, and it woudl also not be surprising if you didn't know about controlled release knots and how to use them as well as the problems you can get into if you do them wrong.
Lots of folks think they know all they need to know about rescue adn climbing and they never take a class or look at a book. Someone with a lot of experience climbing got into an argument about a rappell rescue situation where they proposed actually having to let the victim take a small fall during the rewscue process.
I told em to take a class and learn the right way, that you can't learn rescue on the internet, and this idea got dismissed as "foolishness".
But that is one scenario where the mariner would work, if you can tie it, and if you know what the problems to avoid are, and you will not find these problems in the rescue book. You could get the info first hand from a trained professional, but that would be too easy, right?
So forge ahead in your ignorance by all means.
Been a physics geek, not impressed, sorry.
And I know you do it yourselfers are in the majority, our area self and leader rescue class, offered twice a year or so, was canceled for the second time in three months because not enough people signed up.
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the_pirate
Jun 26, 2003, 12:11 AM
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In reply to: It's not surprising that you woudl think as he does,
In reply to: and it woudl also not be surprising if you didn't know about controlled release knots and how to use them as well as the problems you can get into if you do them wrong.
In reply to: learn the right way, that you can't learn rescue on the internet.
In reply to: So forge ahead in your ignorance by all means. Been a physics geek, not impressed, sorry.
But how can I possibly forge ahead without the awe of a condescending southerner? Oh, woe is me. I shall end it all and cease to burden the world with my ignorance.
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dirtineye
Jun 26, 2003, 1:28 AM
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Right, compound your ingnorance with stupidity, that's always a great combination.
In my last post I mentioned a serious reason to learn proper rescue technique from a professional, but do you comment on that? NO.
Go dangle your bait where you'll catch something. It's clear you care more about flaming and trolling than self rescue.
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the_pirate
Jun 26, 2003, 2:37 AM
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Ahh... You crack me up.
You pull one obscure knot out of the archives and blast pico for not knowing it. That's not being serious, that's being pedantic.
Obviously I care about self/leader rescue since I've spent time learning it as well as making sure that my partners know suitable techniques.
I am only interested in flaming people who feel the need to preach and talk down to me. As for trolling, I'm just standing at the counter of the fish market and you keep jumping back in my cart. My original point, which you still fail to grasp is that some people are capable of learning on their own. Maybe you needed to pay cash to a "professional" to feel like you learned something. Good for you.
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socalclimber
Jun 26, 2003, 2:46 AM
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Hmmm..... Well, I'm trying not let this degrade into a pissing match. I think there have been a bunch of good points made. I tend to bend more towards getting some basic instruction. One reason, I run the Search And Rescue Team for the NPS here in Joshua Tree. We have a number of extremely experienced climbers on the team. Some of the basic concepts we use in rescue parallel self rescue, but on steroids. I once again refer to the ability to assess risk. Knowing a few extra knots won't save you or your partner. I firmly believe that self rescue is more advanced topic than just anchor building and leading. Who's to say who is qualified and who is not to perform a self rescue is a real challenge. I certainly don't feel I or we should make that distinction, I just feel that a little qualified instruction never hurts.
Robert
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dirtineye
Jun 26, 2003, 2:51 AM
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1. The mariner is not obscure.
2. You have demonstrated your interests very well.
3. Please forgive me for taking the foolish point of view that everything you need to know about self rescue is not in the books, and that professionals can save a student of rescue a lot of trouble and help them avoid a serious accident.
4. You are on the losing side of a safety argument. If you put as much effort into rescue training as you do into pointless insults and trolling, you'd probably be pretty good, if you had proper instruction.
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the_pirate
Jun 26, 2003, 3:35 AM
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I'm not trying to say that everything everyone need to know is in books. But reading up on self rescue is a good place to start. Going out and practicing these techniques in a safe environment is even better. I'm sue some people can benefit from taking a course. My problem with a blanket recommendation for professional instruction is that it tends to make people complacent. Having taken a course in self rescue years before and resting on that knowledge makes a person more of a liability than an asset. I feel that many climbers would be better served by trying to figure out these things on their own in a controlled environment. It is a common teaching technique to allow students to make discoveries on their own. Many people remember things better if they came to that knowledge by their own discovery. I feel that most climbers would be better served by assessing their own abilities so that, if they then decide to seek professional instruction they will at least have a better understanding of where their strengths and weaknesses are.
As for putting effort into rescue training, I make a point to practice my techniques at least once per season. How often do you practice such things? Or do you take a course every year?
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socalclimber
Jun 26, 2003, 4:13 AM
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While I agree that the mariner knot isn't obscure or obsolete, I would argue in favour of a munter mule. It's definately faster to tie and handles a loaded system very well. You can add or subtract mechanical advantage while constructing the system. It requires 2 caribiners and about 15 feet of 7 or 8 mil. If you choose to build it with just the climbing rope you have, then some larger biners would help. With a smaller or larger diameter rope, you will get more friction with the munter than with the two loops of the mariner. This is why I think that just the "book" method is less than optimal. If I were teaching a self rescue course, I would point this out. Is one better than the other? Maybe, maybe not, but at least I have some alternative rigging options.
While I have only once had to self rescue with me injured (mashed ankle) and with a partner, I've done some rescues of injured victims on the SAR team. Simply, you're pumped, the pressure is on, and you don't even know this person. Yet, you have to be calm and think clearly. It's far more difficult than you can imagine. It's one thing when I have an entire SAR team working with me, it is entirely another issue with just me and my mangled partner.
One other question. Great, so now you have the person tied off, and accessible, what now??? Is anybody here WFR certified, an EMT, or at the very least certified in basic first aid and CPR from either the red cross or the american heart association????? Granted this is a bit off topic, but is it??? There's a ton more to self rescue than just a few knots and systems you learn from a book. Being able to take classes from experienced people who have dealt with these types of situations in person is far better than anything you can learn out of any book.
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dirtineye
Jun 26, 2003, 5:14 AM
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socalclimber,
Interesting points about the munter mule. Although you need more stuff to make it by your method, it does eliminate a few problems that can happen with the mariner.
But I like the mariner cause all you need is a biner and a 4 foot sling. (that's anohter couple of things the book doesn't point out-- a four foot sling for a mariner and BE CERTAIN you make the two loops)
IT really depends on what you have with you doesn't it? The more options the better, I'm with you. After witnessing a serious fall in a remote area in a situation where any rescue would have been extremely difficult and lowering was not an option, I'm tossing "fast and light" out the window for "prepared for anything all the time".
Thanks for your comments on the rescue mindset. I think in rescue situations, or even in disaster prevention situations, some people go to pieces and others can focus and get the job done. Training can't hurt a bit.
Your comment about wfr or emt is absolutely on topic. Thanks again for a useful and informative post.
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socalclimber
Jun 26, 2003, 5:51 AM
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Arrrrrrrrrrrggggggg. this fricken site keeps crashing and I just lost my post!!!
Anywho, I was a bit vague in my description of the munter/mule. You can build the munter/mule without any extra gear, just like the mariner (SP?). The munter/mule will give you more control because of the increased friction. It's rope on rope, not rope on biner.
The other system with the munter/mule I described is called the Radium Release Hitch. It's a rescue knot, but it would sure work in a self rescue system. Now part of my arsenal.
And, BTW, I'm WFR certified. I would suggest anyone who spends allot of time outdoors to do the same. Do you know how to make a sling for a broken arm with only a single saftey pin??? I do.
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the_pirate
Jun 26, 2003, 6:16 AM
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In reply to: (that's anohter couple of things the book doesn't point out-- a four foot sling for a mariner and BE CERTAIN you make the two loops)
In reply to: I'm tossing "fast and light" out the window for "prepared for anything all the time".
BTW, the industrial fire fighting course is serious bad a$$ $h1t.
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socalclimber
Jun 26, 2003, 6:50 AM
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I really don't think anything here is all that complicated in it's own right. I just believe when you get instruction first hand, from soneone who has had to do it first hand, your all the better off.
Books rarely can begin to put the emphasis on something that an articulate and somewhat animated person can do.
I took my WFR course from the real deal. A good friend of mine who has been around, both climbing wise, and medically. When he described, in vivid detail, what cardiac victims look and act like while still conscious, it stuck. When I witnessed my first serious cardiac patient it all came flooding back. None of the descriptions I have ever read put the emphasis on the event like he did. That's what a good instructor can do that most books cannot.
Great thread by the way, it's really forcing me to think the issues through. Let's try to keep it civil. I am enjoying this!!! Lots of good opinions and responses.
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dirtineye
Jun 26, 2003, 1:20 PM
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Agreed that rescue techniques are not complicated. Like my instructor said, Rescue is a series of small simple steps. But, you have to do them all absolutely right.
The Complete Guide to Rope Techniques is not the rescue book most people know about or read. That one would be the Fasulo book. And neither seem to make the comment that if you fail to make the two loops over the biner, there can be trouble, as in a sudden drop. In case you need to know WHY the 4 foot sling is good for the mariner, it's because you can lose control of it with a short sling when releasing the knot.
There, that's an example of what you would get from a good instructor.
But thanks for the title. On Rope is another good title, written by cavers but applicable to climbing and rescue.
OK socal, the Munter mule I've seen is always around a biner, and I never heard of the radium hitch, so where did you find em? I'll have to look at those.
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thedesertnomad
Jun 26, 2003, 1:57 PM
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All have made very good points here and I think that it is everybody's responsibility to learn at least the basics of self rescue and most importantly how to use that information in the "real world". From the beginning I have been self taught in climbing, I learned all my knots while hanging in a harness in the dark, so that if the "worst case scenario" truly came up, I felt I would be more prepared than if I just learned them from the comfort of a couch. Self rescue I treated the same way. After applying the knowledge that I mostly picked up from books, I did find out that one of my friends had become certified in many things and she did go over some of my techniques and let me know that I had the right idea. Yes, I would say that prof. instruction can help anyone, but I don't find it to be absolutely necessary. Experience and a controlled environment for testing ones abilities can be all "some" need. To each their own and I suppose it is up to each one of us to climb with, or NOT climb with people that do not meet our specific requirements.
As far as going light, I would have to agree with not doing so (for me) I have always been the one to carry the extra gear "just in case" I never climb without an ascender, a couple of prussik loops, and a small med kit in my camelback. The extra weight makes it a little tougher, but well worth it. As far as making a sling out of a safety pin... I would imagine that you need more than that... say that I drop you off NAKED with a broken arm and a safety pin in the desert... can you make a sling...lol for me, I carry a pre-made sling in my real med kit.
Thanks to all for the inputs on this thread and please take this one very very seriously.
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socalclimber
Jun 27, 2003, 1:36 AM
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Well as far as the safety pin goes, my point was that you can make a perfectly good sling out of someones t-shirt just by grabbing the bottom rim of the shirt, pull it over the hand/wrist/lower arm, and pin it to the upper part of the shirt. Simple, now you have a sling. You don't need a triangle bandage. Yup, there may be that one time you encounter the "naked person" with a broken arm. Have you ever thought about creating a sling/splint out of branches, vines etc????? It works! I can build a traction splint out of just about nothing for a broken femur. Can you? This is not a contest, it's reality. I keep a pretty decent medical kit for back country, but it's not going to suffice 2+ hours away from real medical help.
I tend to speak in general about things. There is no way I would ever say that you can't learn things own your on. I have learned a ton of my climbing expertise on my own. I just know that the few times I have taken a course it has made all the difference in the world.
As far as the Radium Release Hitch. I will probably need to submit some pics. Give me a day or two, I may be able to find it on the net, but at worst case I can show different ways to build it!!!
Cool thread!
Robert
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 27, 2003, 4:12 AM
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Ok as far a Robert’s question about First Aid, how many of you proponents of being prepared have actually taken a first aid course?
So far it is:
socalclimber = WFR
the_pirate = EMT
I let my wfr expire last year to but I am going to upgrade to an EMT this year
dirtintheeye ??? your a proponent of self rescue classes and first aid, yet apparently(implied) you haven’t bothered to take a first aid course?
more later
d.
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socalclimber
Jun 27, 2003, 12:31 PM
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Yeah, I can't even begin to stress how important that WFR class could be for you some day. I plan on doing my re-cert. every year. There is allot of information to remember.
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thedesertnomad
Jun 27, 2003, 1:13 PM
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In reply to: Have you ever thought about creating a sling/splint out of branches, vines etc????? It works! I can build a traction splint out of just about nothing for a broken femur. Can you? Just so you know... I was totally kidding about that one, I knew what you meant with the safety pin, and yes, I can splint with the best of them. I was an instructor years ago for a scout ranch and have rescue diver and instructor certifucation for scuba I have unfortunately had to haul a couple of people off of a mountain and out of the woods. (p.s. I threw in the "desert" part of my humor to take the branch and vine equation out of the mixture, lol) No offense, I was just trying to add a slight amount of levity to a serious topic. As far as the Radium Release Hitch. I will probably need to submit some pics. Give me a day or two, I may be able to find it on the net, but at worst case I can show different ways to build it!!! I feel this would be a fantastic thing as well. I will see if I can find it in any of my books and if so, I will scan it and throw it up on the site. Cool thread! Robert |
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gunkiemike
Jun 27, 2003, 4:01 PM
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In reply to: The Complete Guide to Rope Techniques is not the rescue book most people know about or read. That one would be the Fasulo book. And neither seem to make the comment that if you fail to make the two loops over the biner, there can be trouble, as in a sudden drop. In case you need to know WHY the 4 foot sling is good for the mariner, it's because you can lose control of it with a short sling when releasing the knot.
Fasulo botches the Mariner knot altogether IMO when he recommends girth hitching a second 2 ft runner to the Mariner runner. I have never been able to release a MK without the bump of the girth jamming so as to render the thing totally locked up. I'm a fan of the Munter mule. He also dodges the issue of passing a knot on a steep rap, but that's for another day.
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mreardon
Jun 27, 2003, 4:57 PM
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I was lucky, the guy who taught me to climb also taught others self-rescue techniques and showed me a ton of stuff. My next partner for several years was an EMT, again, lots of cool lessons (and gross 2:00am phone calls on his way to an emergency). Haven't taken a particular course, but have had enough situations where playing McGyver was handy.
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socalclimber
Jun 27, 2003, 9:47 PM
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Ok here is the Radium Release Hitch. It will be about halfway through the document. You don't need 33' of cord to make the knot. That's more specific to tech. rescue. Also, be careful how many times you wrap between the two biners. For tech. rescue loads we go twice, but we have much bigger loads than a normal self rescue. Would I use this in a self rescue, hard to say, but at least I have that option. I refer to it as the Atomic Cluster Fuck Knot because I found it a little difficult to tie and remember the sequence. Anywho, have fun!
http://www.ridgenet.net/...e/StretcherRevE.html
Robert
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gunkiemike
Jun 28, 2003, 2:00 AM
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So the Radium is nothing but a Munter with some mechanical advantage thrown in - I can buy that. Can't do it with climbing rope though.
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socalclimber
Jun 28, 2003, 4:13 AM
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Yup, that pretty much sums it up. The rescue techies like to use impressive names for pretty basic systems. It definately has it's uses. It definately works nicely for docking haul bags.
Robert
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dirtineye
Jun 28, 2003, 4:45 AM
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Gunkiemike, thanks for another point on the side of books can't teach you everything LOL.
Socal, thanks for finding that.
Hey if you guys post those pics, I'll post my neato way to tie the figure 8 with two easily equalised loops for clipping to anchors. I'm sure others have figured it out, it isn't that difficult, but the methods in books are always too complicated, and this one is really simple and worth knowing.
Alpinep**sy, nice try. No soap. And as usual, your grasp of logic is seriously lacking, but your trolling is a bit above mediocre. Go play in the street and stop trying to screw up a decent thread. Oh yeah, your grammar sucks too putz.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 28, 2003, 6:26 AM
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off topic
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straightedgeteen
Jun 28, 2003, 7:27 AM
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In reply to: I was out practicing self rescue techinques at Indian Rock yesterday. Confounded the boulderers to nothing else. One guy's like, "What's the giant pack for?" I told him I didn't have a crash pad, so it would have to do. Anyway, a lot of folks were totally entertained by me leaping off rappels with autoblocks and stuff. I never really did much practice with these things (except learn the knots) until now, and I realize the value of knowing these things and how to apply them to situations. That said, seems like I don't know anyone else who trad climbs and has either taught themselves or practiced these techniques. Why not?
I want to learn more about self rescue
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socalclimber
Jun 28, 2003, 2:36 PM
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In reply to: Hey if you guys post those pics, I'll post my neato way to tie the figure 8 with two easily equalised loops for clipping to anchors. I'm sure others have figured it out, it isn't that difficult, but the methods in books are always too complicated, and this one is really simple and worth knowing.
The double figure 8 you are refering to has a double bowline counterpart. I find the double bowline easier to adjust. I need to verify this, but as I understand it, the double figure 8 loses a fair amount of strength once tied. I will go re-check my source today. As a general rule, I prefer having around 3 to 5 extra shoulder length slings, and at least 6 spare biners, on me when I do long trad routes. These are my personal. You can pretty much rig about anything you will need to build belays, simple ascending systems, belay escapes or what have you. While I have used the climbing rope to build anchors and such, I prefer to leave it available.
By the way, since we are talking about rigging stuff out of thin air, how many of you know how to build the Yosemite 6????
Robert
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 28, 2003, 3:29 PM
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Btw. Robert this is a really nice thread, mostly thanks to you.
side note: did you put up some heinous old school routes in red rocks?
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 28, 2003, 4:20 PM
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no point
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socalclimber
Jun 28, 2003, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: Btw. Robert this is a really nice thread, mostly thanks to you. side note: did you put up some heinous old school routes in red rocks?
Thank you, now for reality. Well I am blushing, and I wish I could admit that I've put up some "heinous" routes in red rocks, but alas, no. I guess I'd better spill the beans on my climbing resume.
I've been climbing around 9 years now. I have had several injuries (nothing major) that have kept me off the rocks for 3 to 6 months at a shot. 2 over use injuries didn't help matters either, but I have managed to get up some stuff. At points I was leading fairly solid up to the 5.9 level (by Josh standards), but with time off to recuperate I seem to find myself back round the .7 to .8 level leading trad. Don't sport climb much, but I love aid and walls. Made one summit on a wall, hope to set the record straight this summer with a couple of more. I continuously strive to be mediorcre. I have no problems with that. I hate spray masters.
I continuously climb with people way more experienced than I am, and with tons of years more time on the rock than I have. That's how I have learned allot of what I know. I have gotten myself into more stupid situations than I care to admit, that's also how I have learned how solve problems in a pinch.
Currently, I am running the Search And Rescue team for Joshua Tree National Park Service, JOSAR (Joshua Tree Search And Rescue). It's a new team but has had allot of impact.
I'm really into climbing because I truly enjoy it, and I enjoy the people I have met and climbed with. In no way do I wish anyone to think I am the mutts nuts with regards to self rescue, I've just had to deal with weird situations and thus have learned to handle myself.
If you wish to read about some of my bumblings, here is a couple of links that should prove entertaining:
http://www.socalclimb.com/tr_teamstooge.html
and how my wife and I met (climbing related):
http://www.socalclimb.com/tr_vegas.htm
and:
http://www.socalclimb.com/tr_wotws.html
and my one wall:
http://www.socalclimb.com/tr_skullqueen.html
Flames, threats, insults and the rest are completely acceptable.
Once again, fun thread!
Robert
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 28, 2003, 6:04 PM
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Thanks for the interesting stories Robert.
the reason I asked is that I have had a feeling that we have met somewhere along the road. If not, I am sure I will see you this winter in J-tree, looking forward to it.
Dan
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slcliffdiver
Jun 28, 2003, 7:00 PM
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For the 8 are you talking about the version you start tieing an eight on a bite then pull a double bite through instead of the loop then pass the loop over the whole thing to the other side of the knot? This one is just as easy to adjust as the double bowline counter part (before it is weighted significantly). There is a downside to the double loop bowline (name?).
If the pieces pulls that has the loop that goes directly to a wieghted side (partner hanging on a munter or you weighing the tie in) the knot can extend (you can change this on one side to an extent depending on how you dress the knot). You can eliminate or at least limit this in a couple of ways but not everybody does this.
That much said I use a slight variation on the double loop bowline more often than the double loop eight. Maybe it's just habit, I might have had a reason at one point.
In reply to: In reply to: Hey if you guys post those pics, I'll post my neato way to tie the figure 8 with two easily equalised loops for clipping to anchors. I'm sure others have figured it out, it isn't that difficult, but the methods in books are always too complicated, and this one is really simple and worth knowing. The double figure 8 you are refering to has a double bowline counterpart. I find the double bowline easier to adjust. I need to verify this, but as I understand it, the double figure 8 loses a fair amount of strength once tied. I will go re-check my source today. As a general rule, I prefer having around 3 to 5 extra shoulder length slings, and at least 6 spare biners, on me when I do long trad routes. These are my personal. You can pretty much rig about anything you will need to build belays, simple ascending systems, belay escapes or what have you. While I have used the climbing rope to build anchors and such, I prefer to leave it available. By the way, since we are talking about rigging stuff out of thin air, how many of you know how to build the Yosemite 6???? Robert |
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dirtineye
Jun 28, 2003, 9:58 PM
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This can go on adn on LOL, but htereis anohter bowline you could use, and although it is harder to adjust, yo ucan adjust it, and each loop is independent iin case one cuts or a piece pulls.
tie a double bowline on a bight (jsut a reagular bowline using the bight as a single rope in every respect) and then biner off the loop that would be the tail on a single bowline.
I have no data for this idea, but I can't see any reason NOT to use that third loop to clip to another piece of pro. Anyone tried this thing?
Is that that the variation you use, slcliffdiver?
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 12:41 AM
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In reply to: tie a double bowline on a bight (jsut a reagular bowline using the bight as a single rope in every respect) and then biner off the loop that would be the tail on a single bowline.
Lets try not to change the name of knots on a daily basis.
A double bowline on a bight is not the same as a tying a bowline using the bight as a single rope in every respect and there is no end loop to clip into on a double bowline on a bight.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 12:51 AM
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For anyone that wants a visual refresher course on self rescue
http://www.chauvinguides.com/selfrescue/selfstart.cfm
you might also want to look at their anchoring.pdf file.
and no this site is not idiot proof, But I don't think it would hurt either.
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dirtineye
Jun 29, 2003, 4:42 AM
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Anyone who wants to know more than you'll ever want to about knots can chek out the Ashley Book of knots, where you wil find several double bowlines, some in bights, some not.
I'd still like to know it anyone, well ALMOST anyone, had used the knot I mentioned as a three loop anchor, or knows anything about it as an anchor knot.
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hammer_
Jun 29, 2003, 4:52 AM
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Are you talking about the equalizing figure 8 knot. If so it is not that great due to the fact that if the belayer needs to escape the belay he/she needs to rerig the ancor if possible. It also requires a fair bit of rope.
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dirtineye
Jun 29, 2003, 5:57 AM
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NO, was talking about the bowline on a bight with three loops, and using the third loop as part of the anchor system instead of binering ot off.
How about explianing any belay escape issue with either the figure 8 or the atomic clip or the one I mentioned?
If you have enough rope, why not use it?
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 6:46 AM
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to close to a flame
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dirtineye
Jun 29, 2003, 2:01 PM
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Well let's see now, so far, alpine has driven the serious debate into the ditch in favor of his personal attacks.
Now instead of people posting in this thread for all to see, I'm getting PMs about knots probably cause people are afraid the alpine pit bull will latch onto them too.
You have indeed done a great srvice pal. I'm meeting some great folks thanks to you. Too bad interested readers are missing out, but at least you acomplished something.
Now don't you think this is a bit much, with all your cross posting and carping and misinformation?
Oh one more thing, most climbing knots have their origin in sailing knots. The sorry figure 8 with tails on the same side is a knot that climbers thought of for years (and many still think) as just dandy, while sailors and other knot experts have not even classed it as a bend at all. It really gets tiresome correcting all your errors, why don't you just stop?
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socalclimber
Jun 29, 2003, 2:54 PM
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Hmmm..... well, as far as using the rope for an anchor. I've only done this on a few occasions. I think it's just cleaner to use the standard old anchor materials like slings and cordelette. there is no question what's what. Especialy if the 'oh shit' happens in the dark. I'm really in favor of the clean and simple method. I like to use the same knots, consistency. I not sure there is anything really wrong with using the rope to build the anchor, I just prefer the methods I use all the time.
I'll have to ponder this some more.
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dirtineye
Jun 29, 2003, 3:40 PM
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Socal,
Ok here is a scenario:
You arrive at the belay, a big tree. Yo uare still tied in, and you tie a double bowline on a bight around the tree and biner off the "tail loop" to the other two loops wiht a locking biner. out a locking biner on both loops around the tree, run the belay line through this biner and back to your belay device. You ar eready ro bring up the second. There are no cordalettes to deal with. Your safety tether is the rope that you are still tied in to. The second comes up. If you are swapping leads, he is already on belay unless you have to move along a ledge or something, but that woudl affect any anchor as well. When he gets to the next pitch belay station, you untie your bowline and since you are stil tied in, you are ready to climb.
At a two bolt belay or a gear belay, you can just use one of those equalizing two loop knots and work out any other details. For more than three anchor points, some will tie multiple adjustable loop knots, but I am not too keen on this idea. Past 3 loops in one knot in the rope, I'd either go to a cordalette, or equalize some of the pro (with appropriate redundancy) before it gets to the loops in the rope.
The main advantages are: Speed Simplicity
The main disadvantage is: If you need all the rope, too bad.
Anyway, on a large number of climbs, the ropes as anchor method has served well, but I'd like to hear what you think of this particular setup.
About the dark, this method was in use at dusk at the tail end of an FA and what we did was, as soon as the second was up, we both tethered directly to a big tree, untied from the rope, broke down the anchor (untied one knot) set up the rappell in the usual way and left.
Of course the headlamps were on the ground!
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 9:33 PM
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dirtineye
Anybody that has been following this knows that you attacked me for asking if you had taken a first aid course and that I am responding to your verbal attack. If you don’t want to fight don’t start one. My chosen response is to call you on your mistakes.
I would love for you to show me where I have made any errors instead of just saying that I have. I like to learn from my mistakes so you would be doing me a favor if you would do that.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 9:53 PM
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redundant
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 10:33 PM
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Forgive me, but I am stubborn when it comes to someone attacking me in a situation where I can’t confront them face to face. This is the first time this has happened so I have to play it by ear. Just so you know I will probably be leaving next week for a climbing trip. That will give you a little vacation, but I will be back and I have a long memory. You could try apologizing but I don’t think I would accept it.
In reply to: Socal, Ok here is a scenario: You arrive at the belay, a big tree. Yo uare still tied in, and you tie a double bowline on a bight around the tree and biner off the "tail loop" to the other two loops wiht a locking biner. out a locking biner on both loops around the tree, run the belay line through this biner and back to your belay device. You ar eready ro bring up the second. There are no cordalettes to deal with. Your safety tether is the rope that you are still tied in to. The second comes up. If you are swapping leads, he is already on belay unless you have to move along a ledge or something, but that woudl affect any anchor as well. When he gets to the next pitch belay station, you untie your bowline and since you are stil tied in, you are ready to climb. At a two bolt belay or a gear belay, you can just use one of those equalizing two loop knots and work out any other details. For more than three anchor points, some will tie multiple adjustable loop knots, but I am not too keen on this idea. Past 3 loops in one knot in the rope, I'd either go to a cordalette, or equalize some of the pro (with appropriate redundancy) before it gets to the loops in the rope. The main advantages are: Speed Simplicity The main disadvantage is: If you need all the rope, too bad. Anyway, on a large number of climbs, the ropes as anchor method has served well, but I'd like to hear what you think of this particular setup. About the dark, this method was in use at dusk at the tail end of an FA and what we did was, as soon as the second was up, we both tethered directly to a big tree, untied from the rope, broke down the anchor (untied one knot) set up the rappell in the usual way and left. Of course the headlamps were on the ground!
The first thing that comes to mind is that you rapped directly off the tree. That is a no no, it will kill the tree, climbers have known this for a long time and it is frowned upon.
If you set the belay/rappel properly then you would not have to use the rope to tie into the tree. Ever hear of sap? Another good reason not to tie the rope directly to a tree. Plus when you cleaned your bowline(I have used that knot in that situation, when I was out of slings) you wouldn’t have to re-anchor to the tree to set your rap.
There is more, but the internet is not a good place learn how to set up anchors.
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puma
Jun 30, 2003, 1:07 AM
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But what about the supermunter? While I was gone I thought maybe somebody would have described it by now. Well, there you go, these are the little things you get when you take a course; from a book, you just get what's in that book. Which may work for some, fine, knowing any self-rescue is better than none at all.
So...instead of making you take my self-rescue course, I'll throw one at you because Paul asked. Ready? Got your pear biner and chunk of rope handy? With your left hand hold up the biner w/ the gate down and to the right (you're looking straight through it). Drop in the rope, there is now the strand close to you(#1) and a strand away from you(#2). Under the biner, slide your right hand between the strands with the palm up, grab the #2 strand, rotate your fist counter-clockwise (or fingers towards you) and drop in that bight. Voila! Munter. Now with your right hand, go around the #2 strand, pinch #1, bring it back around and up to the gate and push it in with your thumb. You should now see a U with a cross in the middle of it. SUPERMUNTER BABY!! Good for lowering big loads.. you know, multiple partners, kegs, coolers, etc.
Lg
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2003, 2:36 AM
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Hey Puma
I tried to follow your directions but couldn't find the U with a cross in it.
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dirtineye
Jun 30, 2003, 4:21 AM
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Puma, that knot is in at least one book I own. I've never bothered to use it, but maybe I will try it next time I have the chance to do a heavy lower.
Your directions work fine for me, once i figured out you mean to go between the strands the first time from right to left, that is, with the strand toward you on the left side of your right hand.
I see the cross. Cute description.
Hey this knot does not seem to reverse easily like the normal munter will. Have you tried taking and giving slack on this knot? I think I will try rappelling with it next chance I get.
There is a good pair of diagrams in the amga manual that show how to tie this hitch (they call it the double italian or double munter hitch)
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2003, 5:09 AM
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Thanks dirtineye, that was helpful
peace
d.
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socalclimber
Jun 30, 2003, 2:45 PM
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As far as the anchor thing goes. I just prefer the method of using slings etc. for my anchors. With that said, I just have to try this Mega Munter...
Robert
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the_pirate
Jun 30, 2003, 3:22 PM
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Registered: May 20, 2003
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In reply to: that knot is in at least one book I own. snip There is a good pair of diagrams in the amga manual that show how to tie this hitch (they call it the double italian or double munter hitch)
Hmmm..... What have we here? Something that you found in a book that wasn't taught in your course..... You wag more than a dog's tail.
I like the double munter.... It is leaps and bounds better than that tangle with a biner clipped to it, the mariner's knot.
Oh, and I like how you launch an attack on alpnC because he asked if you had taken any first aid training.... which, btw you still haven't answered. And if you are going to slam someone else for their grammar, you should make damn sure that your grammar and spelling are tip top.
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pico23
Jun 30, 2003, 4:58 PM
Post #99 of 109
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In reply to: Well Poor old pico really doesn't get the idea of the mariner, I think he is confusing it with another knot. But that is one scenario where the mariner would work, if you can tie it, and if you know what the problems to avoid are, and you will not find these problems in the rescue book. You could get the info first hand from a trained professional, but that would be too easy, right? So forge ahead in your ignorance by all means. Been a physics geek, not impressed, sorry. And I know you do it yourselfers are in the majority, our area self and leader rescue class, offered twice a year or so, was canceled for the second time in three months because not enough people signed up.
I try not to get on people for having an opinion. I'll gladly argue with it but there is a point where someones opinion becomes more then that. At this point you've crossed that line and your opinion seems to be a climbing mantra that all must adhere to. I'm really glad you took a self rescue course or two, but that doesn't make you an expert and it certainly doesn't give you the right to critique anyone with some experience. I tie the mariner just fine and I back it up with a biner so there is no way it can untie. I just can't accept your falacious idea that you can only be safe if you learn through a guide. That is rediculous. I'd venture to say beyond the first few years of climbing there is no difference in the accident rate of people who learned with guides and people who learned with partners and books. Accidents happen and if you climb long enough you will probably get hurt or know someone who got hurt, so NO ONE is immune to the dangers regardless of how much training you've had or how many days on the rock you've had.
I just got back from several of the most comitting areas in the lower northeast. Wallface and the Gothics and be assured my partner and I were confident in each others abilities as we'd been practicing both rescue and climbing in increasingly more commited situations over the last several months leading up to grade III trad climbs far from the road. If something went wrong WE WERE the rescue party as there weren't any other climbers on either wall last week, and help was miles away. Please don't preach to me what I know and don't know. I don't know everything and I still have a lot to learn and that is part of what makes climbing so much fun to me, but I'm not a gymbie and I am reasonably competent, and most of all I am tired of your preaching.
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pico23
Jun 30, 2003, 5:38 PM
Post #100 of 109
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In reply to: Ok as far a Robert’s question about First Aid, how many of you proponents of being prepared have actually taken a first aid course? So far it is: socalclimber = WFR the_pirate = EMT I let my wfr expire last year to but I am going to upgrade to an EMT this year dirtintheeye ??? your a proponent of self rescue classes and first aid, yet apparently(implied) you haven’t bothered to take a first aid course? more later d.
CFR (certified first responder) in 1995
AWFA (advanced wilderness first aid) taken in 1994 which covered improvised wilderness first aid techniques
Avalache search and resue taken in 1998 which covered improvised splinting, spinal imobilization and clearing, and other basic wilderness first aid
really any BLS certification is designed to assess and stabilize a victim till more experienced help and evacuation can arrive. I'm still hoping to get my EMT-B sometime in the near future but I've been saying that since my CFR expired years ago. I remember enough to not make a bad situation worse but skills do lapse without continous use and I'd like to get involved in SAR.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2003, 6:01 PM
Post #101 of 109
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Anyway as far as what I think is the best way to learn self rescue.
#1 climb with someone that knows how and is willing to share his knowledge.
#2 Read a book and use as many other sources as you can find.
#3 Practice, practice, practice
#4 take a class, it couldn’t hurt, but it is far from being the only way or the best way for that matter.(take a first aid course first)
Pico and the Pirate seem like safe and sensible climbers who have made a lot of good recommendations,
People that think you can buy knowledge scare me. Self-rescue is all about problem solving skills that are not best addressed by a by the numbers course. IMHO.
Be safe
d.
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puma
Jun 30, 2003, 8:50 PM
Post #102 of 109
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Registered: Jan 19, 2003
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In reply to: Hey this knot does not seem to reverse easily like the normal munter will. Have you tried taking and giving slack on this knot? I think I will try rappelling with it next chance I get.
Right, it will be tougher to reverse because it is the SUPERMUNTER BABY! The only times I've used it was for a lower, so there wasn't any taking...there was only one way happening, down. I think if you try to rappel with it (standard dbl rope rap) you'll never make it down, unless maybe if you're riding a 60+lb pig. However it may be good for a simul-rap w/ thinner ropes, where you may need more friction.
Yes, it is in the AMGA manual but that isn't a book that everybody has so I thought it'd be good to share. Have fun.
Lg
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the_pirate
Jun 30, 2003, 8:52 PM
Post #103 of 109
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I'm sure he'll be fine. He has his 60+ lb ego riding along with him.
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 1, 2003, 5:20 AM
Post #104 of 109
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Puma
can the public purchase a copy of the AMGA guides manual?
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dirtineye
Jul 1, 2003, 12:38 PM
Post #105 of 109
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Registered: Mar 29, 2003
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Yes you can. You can get it cheaper by becoming an associate member of the AMGA.
Here is a FREE online knot book that is pretty nice. Well, almost free. YOur tax dollars at work.
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-97.61/toc.htm
And here is an online picture of your double or super munter. There was a better one somewhere else, but I can't remember where.
http://www.squamishrockguides.com/Handout%20PDF's/Rescue.pdf
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 3, 2003, 3:40 AM
Post #106 of 109
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thanks curt,
ps, I removed my inaccurate statements about you in my previous posts.
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dirtineye
Jul 4, 2003, 3:04 AM
Post #107 of 109
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Thanks. The guy who wrote about the 60 pound ego was inaccurate too-- he underestimated badly LOL!
But if you REALLY wanted to be nice, you'd get me a date with a red hot 5.13 trad climbing rich beautiful sex starved young girl who would want to have my children. Who would be happy to carry my 90+pounds of gear around AND cook fantastic meals.
I have to come to Utah and CO sometime in the future, maybe I can get to your area then and we can climb something. Have the girl ready LOL.
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slcliffdiver
Jul 5, 2003, 4:47 PM
Post #108 of 109
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Registered: Mar 18, 2002
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Sorry about the late response. This isn't the knot I use with 2 anchors it has the same problem when used this way (extension when the pro that pulls goes to the weighted line). I use this knot sometimes with 3 anchor points, modified for the same reason.
In reply to: This can go on adn on LOL, but htereis anohter bowline you could use, and although it is harder to adjust, yo ucan adjust it, and each loop is independent iin case one cuts or a piece pulls. tie a double bowline on a bight (jsut a reagular bowline using the bight as a single rope in every respect) and then biner off the loop that would be the tail on a single bowline. I have no data for this idea, but I can't see any reason NOT to use that third loop to clip to another piece of pro. Anyone tried this thing? Is that that the variation you use, slcliffdiver? |
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dirtineye
Jul 6, 2003, 2:55 AM
Post #109 of 109
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Um, well egg on my face and all that, I um, looked in my AMGA manual, Gosh darn it I hate getting old, I KNOW I used to know this, but um, well, the three loop bowline we have been talking about is recommended for three point anchors. Heh. I wish I could remember the stuff I used to know.
The mind is the second thing to go in old age.
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