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puma
Jun 20, 2003, 7:08 AM
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Good for you Maculated to get out there and practice this stuff. I always have a piece of cord wrapped on my leg loop so it's always there when I need it. And I leave it there! A few times I've taken it off because I was going to the gym and forgot to put it back...got outside, reached down and... Oh, and I don't extend my rap device, my system works fine without doing so...I guess it depends with each person.
Phil also mentioned a way to increase friction w/ two climbers on one device, here are others ways to increase friction. ie. add an extra locker, extra wraps w/ the autoblock, supermunter, flip the Trango Pyramid.
Books are fine for familiarization but if you have the time and a little extra money a course goes a long way because you learn more efficient ways to do things.
Lg
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socalclimber
Jun 20, 2003, 12:18 PM
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I'll bet PUMA knows how to escape a belay with a single sling. One of the cooler things I learned a few years back! Seriously, I see this all the time and it makes me cringe. If you are gonna practice this stuff, setup a top rope anchor, load up a pack with 20 pounds of gear, and use the pack as your victim. Do everything from the ground. I have seen so many people "practicing" these techniques with a live person on the rope. "Ok Joe, try and unload the system".
The best bet would be to get some instruction. It's too easy to screw up the systems and get hurt.
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outdoorsie
Jun 20, 2003, 1:14 PM
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My fiance and I have recently started trad climbing, and while we've had a great experience with a guide to help us just get started, we haven't seen or even heard of anybody who teaches self rescue courses.
Regardless, my fiance has been manic about learning this stuff. The falcon guides for Anchors has some stuff in the back about self rescue. We've got the big book on order and we intend on practice escaping the belay in the gym before we go climbing over the 4th.
Does anybody know of any certified courses taught in the midwest? Indiana/Illinois/Ohio/Kentucky?
Thanks!
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socalclimber
Jun 20, 2003, 1:27 PM
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Check the AMGA's web site. Any certified AMGA guide will be able to teach a proper course in self rescue. I don't normaly see self rescue course advertised as much as normal classes. Just tell the guide service what your after and I am sure you will have no problems.
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beyond_gravity
Jun 20, 2003, 1:44 PM
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In reply to: Check the AMGA's web site. Any certified AMGA guide will be able to teach a proper course in self rescue. I don't normaly see self rescue course advertised as much as normal classes. Just tell the guide service what your after and I am sure you will have no problems.
Thats what you would think. All the guides should know rescue, weather they are organized enough to explain and teach it is another question.
I took a rescue course that had two intructors, one was awesome, and by the end of the course I felt like I knew the stuff better then the other guy.
basic stuff I think everyone should know
- How to tie, and tie off a munter hitch (!)
- tieing off a belay/escaping
- Prussiking
- Pairs rappel
- Counter-balance Rappel
- put a chest harness on anyone being resued
The recues i've practiced have been pretty complex (leader falls 25m above you, and 20m to the side) but they all come back to the basics and end up being suprisingly not complex.
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socalclimber
Jun 20, 2003, 2:03 PM
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As I stated in another thread: "In the top 5 things that make a good guide, climbing is #6 on the list". Teaching skills, organizational skills, people skills all top the list of what makes a good guide. I know a ton of AMGA guides, all are good solid guides. Maybe the one guide you had was an apprentice.
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paulc
Jun 20, 2003, 3:26 PM
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In reply to: Phil also mentioned a way to increase friction w/ two climbers on one device, here are others ways to increase friction. ie. add an extra locker, extra wraps w/ the autoblock, supermunter, flip the Trango Pyramid. Lg
Puma;
What is a supermunter? Quick google search turns up nothing. How does this differ from a reg. munter?
Thanks
Paul
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pico23
Jun 20, 2003, 4:28 PM
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In reply to: Supervision can stop you from hurting yourself in the learning process. I hope that will convince you and anyone else to NOT teach themselves self rescue. read the book by all means, learn the knots, then shell out some cahse for professional instruction. And before you ask, yes, all of the examples I gave are from real experience.
Bullsh!t!!!!!! No really, anyone can figure that stuff out. You need to know exactly 2 knots you didn't already know (the mariner and the mule). You are trying to place every climber into a mold. some people work well on their own from a book and others need hands on instruction. Don't throw the two into the same learning style I don't think hands on is always best, when I learn from a book I take my time, I practice in my apartment learning all the basics from a beam on my ceiling and then I practice over and over before it goes outside. At that point the knots are second nature and all I am doing is adding anchors and prussiking to the picture which any trad leader should be able to do. Once outside I practice a few feet off the ground and then once that is good I take it higher. A top rope belay is a good idea as well but admitedly I didn't use one, although I'd highly recommend it.
Regardless, self rescue skills should be practiced a few times a year. Learning them once in a AMGA certified course isn't gonna save your life. Think back to all that crap you learned in high school and college. I believe even the smartest students retained about 30% of it all, 30% of self rescue isn't going to get you or your partner off a climb if something goes wrong. Keep that in mind when you are shelling out $100+ for guided instruction that will still need to be practiced on your own without the help of a guide.
Let me just summarize by saying it isn't necessarily a matter of intelligence but just different learning styles. So if your learning style suits picking up a book and learning seemingly complex techniques on your own then go for it, if you get flustered and can't figure it all out then learn from a guide or another experienced climber. Personally, the first time I read self rescue I'd been leading for a few years and it still blew my mind. I put it down and then came back to it a few weeks later but this time went step by step and I realized it was actually quite simple and only used a few new techniques that I didn't already know. It's hard to imagine getting stuck on a climb just because you don't know the mariner or mule knot when you have all the other skills to get down.
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pico23
Jun 20, 2003, 4:45 PM
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In reply to: I wasa involved in a rescue about a year ago. My friend and I were climbing and next to us some dude fell and knocked himself out. When the belayer tried to lower him he ended up on a ledge. My friend and I grabbed our gear ran over and essentailly rescued his partner for him. So many people were standing around not knowing what to do. It was pathetic. Learn to rescue. A descent course will be a day and a half to two days and will probably be the bet investment you'll ever do in climbing. THe guy we rescued was fine, just dazzed and stunned.
Seems like that was the correct thing to do. It depends on the situation but certainly you didn't expect the belayer to rig a rescue anchor, prussik to his partner, build another anchor, lower break down the first anchor, clean the gear, ascend to the victim, rappel down, when all you had to do was get to the ledge?
If you've practiced self rescue you know it's time consuming and probably a last resort in most cragging situations. If other climbers are nearby the best thing to do is call for help. I think placing your victim in danger trying show off your knowledge is stupid. At a crowded crag lock off the belay and call for help. That is definitely going to be fastest and probably safest.
You deserve a pat on the back for getting someone down safely but don't rag on the belayer for doing the right thing in that situation.
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socalclimber
Jun 20, 2003, 5:05 PM
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Well, I think BULLS*!T is a bit strong don't you?? When I first read this initial post, I thought to myself: "Hmmmm not much experiance here, she probably shouldn't be out trying to teach herself this particular skill set alone." Anybody can run out, buy a book, and teach themselves something. One of the most disturbing thing that has been missing in every post on this thread is the ability to assess risk.
Risk assessment does not come from a book, it comes from time on the rock. Lot's and lot's of time. Just because you can tie a couple of extra knots, and follow directions does not mean you can properly assess the potential risks involved in a given rescue situation. Do you know how to decide if the flake your stuffing cams into to build a secondary belay is expando???? Are you solid enough to know lousy placements from good ones?? Would you know how to equalize the whole mess into something stable??? What if you need an anchor that handles an upward pull and couldn't find a suitable placement for an oppositional piece.
Being a leader doesn't mean you know what your doing with regards to gear placements, much less risk assessment.
Maculated has only been climbing for 2 years. Most likely she just doesn't have the time and experience on the rock to make those assessments. I am not knocking her, it's just a fact. I say good for her for just trying, but I also believe at her current experience level a guided course would be far better in the long run.
maculated said:
"There was also frantic running and leaping on the ground to test my nuts out."
This is a not a bad thing, but it clearly indicates to me lack of experience. When I place gear, I know if it's good or not. Hiring a guide in this instance may be the best, this way she gets to ask all those nagging question that a book can never answer.
YMMV,
Robert
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maculated
Jun 20, 2003, 5:22 PM
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In my defense:
"When I place gear, I know if it's good or not."
Me, too. The point here is that, most gear I place doesn't come under any kind of bodyweight or falls. You're right, I've only been climbing for 2 years, which is why I did try to load my pieces at odd angles and create zippers to watch affects. Knowing why it happens is different than watching it for me.
I recently had an episode where a leader climbing on gear I'd set took a fall and it didn't hold. Witnesses say they were good, but it was the way the force was loading the nuts. I don't believe that, so I decided to test it out.
I'm not going to sit here and explain why I do things all day. My post was asking why most people aren't taught to learn self-rescue. It was a thought that occurred to me because boulderers were watching me in amusement, not because I'd never learned.
I worked up in Yosemite, I climbed with guides, am friends with guides, and while I appreciate everyone looking out for me, I would rather this be less about me and more about educating everyone. Okay? Okay.
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pico23
Jun 20, 2003, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: Maculated has only been climbing for 2 years. Most likely she just doesn't have the time and experience on the rock to make those assessments. I am not knocking her, it's just a fact. I say good for her for just trying, but I also believe at her current experience level a guided course would be far better in the long run. maculated said: "There was also frantic running and leaping on the ground to test my nuts out." This is a not a bad thing, but it clearly indicates to me lack of experience. When I place gear, I know if it's good or not. Hiring a guide in this instance may be the best, this way she gets to ask all those nagging question that a book can never answer. YMMV, Robert
Robert,
I agree with you to a point but I disagree with the fact that many people feel a 1 day guided course gives you judgement experience. The fact is guided courses are good but they are also bad. You take a course and have this false sense of confidence that you know more then you do because a guide taught you. Am I wrong? I don't think I am. Have you ever seen someone do something wrong (at least for that situation) and hear, "Well thats what the guide taught me." The fact is no matter what you don't have the judgment if you've only been climbing for a short while (or maybe you do, so I don't pigeon hole everyone into one group) whether you learn from a guide or a book. The guide isn't gonna be on every climb with you and not all situations you get into are going to be as controlled as your guided lesson. At some point you do need to start making the judgment calls on your own. I think two years of climbing is long enough to start to be able to make those calls for many people, but again, I don't want to make an over generalization for everyone. Really, I don't even think it is years on the rock but days and pitches that need to be looked at for someones experience.
Also, in my post I do state that the rest are skills that any trad leader should know. If you are leading you should be competent at placing gear and building anchors (including multi-directional). If you are not then self rescue isn't gonna be what gets you killed. Your running protection and your belays are subjected to similar (if not stronger) forces every pitch and every potential fall. If you can't build a good anchor you need to get better before you kill both you and your belayer. I climbed with someone who consistently build poor anchors even after leading for a bit. Rest assured I don't climb with them anymore.
I firmly believe it is a personal choice to go guided or not and not some hard rule that needs to be applied to every climber.
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socalclimber
Jun 20, 2003, 6:02 PM
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I certainly don't disagree with you. And, no, the guide won't likely be around for every pitch someone climbs. I just think self rescue skills fall into a more advanced skill set than just setting up anchors. Maculated, I didn't mean for this to turn towards you, my appologies. Since I am the principle reason for the thread drift, I will attempt to bring us back on topic.
Why don't people learn self-rescue, probably a little bit of complancency, maybe some ignorance, maybe a litte arrogance. The, "it won't happen to me!", or "it's only 5 pitches at 5.8, how hard could it be??" wouldn't be to out of line. I run the volunteer Search And Rescue team for Joshua Tree NP, I can assure you, we seem some pretty bizzare things around here :shock:
Robert
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dirtineye
Jun 21, 2003, 12:22 PM
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Bullsh!t yourself. What exactly are you saying is bullsh!t anyway? could you be a little more clear on that? ARe yo usaying that the tree examples I gave from my own experience didn't happen? Yes, there is Bullsh!t here, all from your end though. Your comment that you only need the munter and the mule in addition to the common climbing knots is just idiotic, provbing that you really do need instruction and supervision befoer you hurt yourself or someone else.
You teach yourself rescue, you have a fool for a teacher.
One more time, EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW IS NOT ON THE BOOKS.
One last thing Pico, YOu are the one saying that a one day course gives experience needed, etc, NOT anyone else. You just made up a windmill to tilt at pal. Try responding to what people actually say, instead of puting words in their mouths.
I don;t know maculated at all, but she could have climbed more in two years that n many do in 5. Maybe her choice of words was unfortunate, maybe she is a knucklehead. Like she says , though, the point of the post is not to find every possible flaw in how she stated her post, rather the point is that self and leader reascue are important skills and that you should get insttuction read the books and practice. That view is certainly the one I respect. I'd rather climb with an 'inexperienced' Climber like mac that someone that thinks they know everything and was too good to get instruction and doesn't even know the need for knots like the mariner or the kleimheist.
Mac, see my tag line about how to deal with idiots. You are so right that most of our gear is never really tested. The comment you got from people that the pieces were good but that it was the way the forces worked that pulled em is kind of funny. It's not a bad idea to question such placements and such ideas, which is just what you did.
The effect of rope drag on 'good' pieces is a great topic. The idea about rope drag and sling length is that the only pieces that should take stress in a fall are the top and the bottom ( anchor or directional) pieces, and that the rest should have free hanging slings. If hte slings on the intermediate pieces are too short, then the pieces on them will get an outward pull. This can happen if the leader hangs, or when the second hangs. There is a good diagram of this in MTFOTH, but you can see it yourself at just about any crag.
Even without any hanging that puts non-downward forces on a short slung piece, a piece on a short sling can walk around just from the rope jostling it around. You can test this easily.
About the only climbing two years bit, for all you know, mac could have climbed hundreds of days in two years. And all experience is not good experience. I know some folks with 30 years 'experience' doing stuff wrong and lucking out.
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paganmonkeyboy
Jun 21, 2003, 6:33 PM
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ok. after much reading of this thread, and actually going out and practicing a bit with the book again- I just signed myself and my main partner up for a self rescue clinic. Its only a one day deal, but it is a start.
Some people have suggested going out and trying it out of the book with a nice heavy weight on the rope. Do this. Trust me - you will start to think a course would be a *good* thing. It is not anywhere as easy as it looks, and handling live weight, the weight of a partner, throws a whole new curve into the mix. The thought of being stuck in the middle of nowhere on some sick alpine route, or just 5 minutes from the car clipping bolts, and *not* being extremely competent in self rescue gives me the shivers. Yeah, plan A is not get hurt, but plan B is always going to be get everyone out safe.
.02$, ymmv....
oh, and Happy Solstice ! Summer is here - Go outside and climb something !
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pico23
Jun 21, 2003, 9:11 PM
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In reply to: Bullsh!t yourself. What exactly are you saying is bullsh!t anyway? could you be a little more clear on that? ARe yo usaying that the tree examples I gave from my own experience didn't happen? Yes, there is Bullsh!t here, all from your end though. Your comment that you only need the munter and the mule in addition to the common climbing knots is just idiotic, provbing that you really do need instruction and supervision befoer you hurt yourself or someone else. You teach yourself rescue, you have a fool for a teacher. One more time, EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW IS NOT ON THE BOOKS.
Well I am saying bullsh!t that you can't learn without guided instruction. I seem to do just fine as did a previous partner I had (he's still alive and well just living in England). I'm not saying any of your examples are bullsh!t I am just saying that you seem to think everyone is only capable of being force fed techniques first hand and I think if you've been leading, building anchors, and climbing for a few years self rescue should be something you are capable of learning with minimal difficulty. As far as not knowing self rescue, I don't know, I hope I can put it all together if the need ever arises but in practice it's worked so far. No one has died, fallen, gotten hurt, and all the anchors, knots, rappels, ect. have all worked. I stand by the fact all you need to learn is the mariner and a mule knot. I already knew all the other knots (munters, cloves, 8's, prussiks). And as I said when I first looked at it as a whole system it blew my mind, I went back and broke it down into steps and holy crap it wasn't that hard. I never advocated anyone use my learning style, I just said not everyone needs your learning style. If you want to argue that point feel free, but that is the only point I was arguing.
You took a hard line stance towards your opinion and I'm saying that it's just that: your opinion. If you are intelligent and motivated and learn well on your own you can learn a lot from a book. There are many great climbers who taught themselves much of what they initially knew and more but you have to be sure you can learn like that because the end result might not be some grand biography but a sad obituary.
So my only arguement for the record is some people can learn quite well from a book and despite the complicated appearance of self rescue it is really a lot of what you already know from trad climbing.
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hammer_
Jun 22, 2003, 12:06 AM
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So my only arguement for the record is some people can learn quite well from a book and despite the complicated appearance of self rescue it is really a lot of what you already know from trad climbing.
Should'nt you learn self rescue technics before you start to climbing trad?
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pico23
Jun 22, 2003, 4:31 AM
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In reply to: So my only arguement for the record is some people can learn quite well from a book and despite the complicated appearance of self rescue it is really a lot of what you already know from trad climbing.
Should'nt you learn self rescue technics before you start to climbing trad?
Thats a good question (i'm not being a wise ass). I'd venture to say that most people don't learn self rescue at the start of their trad climbing. And I do think if they did it would be extremely complicated regardless of whether they learned with a AMGA guide or a book. Essentially, you'd be taking a crash course in trad climbing (anchors, knots, prussiks, rapelling, ect all in a few days). A lot of that is experience that takes a while to develope so it would be tough to learn it before you actually started climbing trad.
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dirtineye
Jun 23, 2003, 2:44 AM
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The argument is not about learning style, it is about the FACT that you can't learn things that are not in the book from the book.
And you still seem to have no idea of what a mariner is for. OR the pitfalls in using one that are NOT in the book.
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pico23
Jun 23, 2003, 8:19 AM
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In reply to: And you still seem to have no idea of what a mariner is for. OR the pitfalls in using one that are NOT in the book.
I'm not sure where you came up with this statement. But I'm sure it took a while. Anyway, the mariner is for belaying from a ship while climbing sea side cliffs :wink: .
and there aren't really any pitfalls if it is used properly, actually, beyond belaying from a ship :wink: , I use it for my rappel backup above the belay device. Works great and eliminates the worry of above device problems. If I lose control the prussik locks up and I simply lock off and release the knot. I didn't even need a book for that because to the best of my knowledge this technique is not in any book as I created it on my own. So you are right, a book can't tell you everything.
Anyway, I really don't have any desire to sit here and see who can p!ss farther. It's meaningless so I concede defeat.
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the_pirate
Jun 25, 2003, 8:16 PM
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I gotta agree with pico here. Back when I was just starting to lead trad some buddys and I decided that we needed to have a system to deal with any unforseen occurrences that we might encounter while climbing. So off we went to our local crag laden with ropes and gear. We took turns trying to come up with worst emergency situations we could think of. We then set about figuring out how we would deal with such situations. Leader rescue, escaping the belay, hoisting and lowering disabled climbers. No instructors, no guides, no books, just a couple of physics geeks at the crag. A fool for an instructor..... I don't think so dirtyeye. When I finally read up on self rescue techniques, it didn't really surprise me that many of the techniques that we "invented" were being recommended. I definitely learned more from figuring it out on my own than if I had taken some quickie course. Some people can learn it from books. Some can figure it out on their own. Some people, with all the instruction in the world, can never quite grasp how to thread a figure-8 follow through.
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sspssp
Jun 25, 2003, 8:53 PM
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I'll chime in on this thread.
Reading about self-rescue and taking a rescue course is a great idea. One thing to watch out for, it doesn't do a lot of good to learn techniques that require equipment you don't usually carry. Some courses and books are good about this and some are not. Go check out the "going light" thread and then ask what sort of rescue could be done with that equipment. That is going to be the reality for most people in most situations.
Starting with a 20lb pack is not such a bad idea, but a 20lb pack is pretty easy to manhandle. If you have a wall bag, fill it up with 180lbs and try it.
You can practice with a "live" person, but everything should always be backed up. One way to do this is find a crack climb that has a bolted anchor, have the "leader/victim" set pro and hang on the lead rope (the belayer has them under tension). Have another, seperate rope that is tied to the belayer/rescuer that goes through the bolted anchor and then back to the "vicitm" who belays this rope with a gri-gri. This way the "victim" can keep this rope slack, but if the "rescuer" screws up in any way, both the rescuer and the victim are backed up by this other rope. The extra rope adds an extra complication, but so what. Another option would be to find a couple of other people who are interested in self-rescue and have them independently belay the victim and rescuer. Also when practicing with an actual person, start out no more than eight or ten feet off the ground.
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dirtineye
Jun 25, 2003, 9:14 PM
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Well Poor old pico really doesn't get the idea of the mariner, I think he is confusing it with another knot.
It's not surprising that you woudl think as he does, and it woudl also not be surprising if you didn't know about controlled release knots and how to use them as well as the problems you can get into if you do them wrong.
Lots of folks think they know all they need to know about rescue adn climbing and they never take a class or look at a book. Someone with a lot of experience climbing got into an argument about a rappell rescue situation where they proposed actually having to let the victim take a small fall during the rewscue process.
I told em to take a class and learn the right way, that you can't learn rescue on the internet, and this idea got dismissed as "foolishness".
But that is one scenario where the mariner would work, if you can tie it, and if you know what the problems to avoid are, and you will not find these problems in the rescue book. You could get the info first hand from a trained professional, but that would be too easy, right?
So forge ahead in your ignorance by all means.
Been a physics geek, not impressed, sorry.
And I know you do it yourselfers are in the majority, our area self and leader rescue class, offered twice a year or so, was canceled for the second time in three months because not enough people signed up.
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the_pirate
Jun 26, 2003, 12:11 AM
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In reply to: It's not surprising that you woudl think as he does,
In reply to: and it woudl also not be surprising if you didn't know about controlled release knots and how to use them as well as the problems you can get into if you do them wrong.
In reply to: learn the right way, that you can't learn rescue on the internet.
In reply to: So forge ahead in your ignorance by all means. Been a physics geek, not impressed, sorry.
But how can I possibly forge ahead without the awe of a condescending southerner? Oh, woe is me. I shall end it all and cease to burden the world with my ignorance.
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dirtineye
Jun 26, 2003, 1:28 AM
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Right, compound your ingnorance with stupidity, that's always a great combination.
In my last post I mentioned a serious reason to learn proper rescue technique from a professional, but do you comment on that? NO.
Go dangle your bait where you'll catch something. It's clear you care more about flaming and trolling than self rescue.
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