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compclimber
Jun 30, 2001, 10:01 PM
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I was wondering what the consensus opinion is about bolting on this site?
What do you think of chopping bolts that are too close to natural pro,and do you agree with Steve Diekhoff's chopping of the Corner Stone in boulder canyon?
*Edit: linked to Poll by fiend*
[ This Message was edited by: fiend on 2001-11-16 12:41 ]
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wandt
Jul 1, 2001, 12:24 AM
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I think I would have to climb it to say for sure, but I think the ethic should be, if it has natural pro, don't bolt it, but if it has been bolted, don't chop them. No one forces you to use the bolts. I, for instance, would have little reservations about bolting a long run-out stretch on an otherwise trad route because there are either no placements, or those that are there are really bad. I would really rather avoid dying.
By the bolt choppers' arguement, if there are no placements, you should simply free solo the route and use natural pro at the top to set the rappel anchor.
What do you all think?
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kagunkie
Jul 1, 2001, 1:34 AM
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MR WANDT IF YOU CANT DO IT WITHOUT ADDING BOLTS GO AND IMPROVE YOUR SKILL SO YOU CAN REPEAT IT IN THE ORIGIONAL STYLE OR BETTER WITHOUT DEGRADING THE ROUTE!!! THE OBJECT IS TO IMPROVE SKILL NOT BRING THE CLIMB DOWN TO A LEVEL YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH PERIOD!!!! ADDING BOLTS TO AN EXISTING ROUTE INSULTS EVERYBODY, THE FIRST ASCENTIONIST, THE OTHER CLIMBERS WHO RECOGNIZE THE REAL CHALLENGE IN CLIMBING, AND MOST OF ALL THE IREPLACEABLE RESOURCE, THE ROCK. DONT SELL OUT FUTURE GENERATIONS OF CLIMBERS JUST TO FUEL YOUR EGO YOU BONEHEAD!!!!!
MABY YOU SHOULD STAY IN THE GYM WHERE YOU CANT GET KILLED? NO WEENIES ALLOWED OUT HERE!!!
By the way its not you that im pissed at its what you said about adding bolts to a route thats been climbed.DONT teach the less experienced climbers to disrespect the rock becaus they feel like it.
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-06-30 20:44 ]
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wandt
Jul 1, 2001, 7:32 AM
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Skill will not save you from death. If you fall on a suspect placement from a really long runout, you end up dead whether you climb 5.14 or 5.7. Every climb is different, and the rating is subjective. You don't know if you're going to fall until you climb it. With some of the runouts and suspect placements I've seen, it becomes an onsight free-solo, 'cause they won't save you if you plummet.
And what do you think about the other ideas expressed in the post? ie. the first statement.
Also... what if you ARE the first ascentionist? Do you use your own discretion then? Or do you refrain from putting in bolts even if it's game over if you fall?
Or am I just putting up futile arguements and climbing is about who stays alive because of lucky sends, rather than actually enjoying onesself on the rock?
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wandt
Jul 1, 2001, 7:36 AM
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By the way, my statement about having no qualms about fixing pro to protect a long runout, is purely hypothetical. I have neither the tools, money to buy tools, money to leave hard-bought bolts in a cliff, nor the experience and knowhow in placing bolts to do that.
And anyways, if I led something and discovered a runout that long and finished it, I'm far too apathetic to go back and work on it. And if I didn't finish it, that would be because I fell after discovering the runout, and am a smear on the landscape.
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kagunkie
Jul 1, 2001, 3:38 PM
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maby you schould leave the new route ascents to more experienced climbers.You dont learn anything about climbing in a gym, that experience can only be gotten the hard way.By doing real ROCK climbing.
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compclimber
Jul 1, 2001, 6:56 PM
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Thank's for the responce it seems that you share my opinions as well.
If you would like to read the survey results that were posted in boulder canyon go to www.climbingboulder.com
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coach
Jul 1, 2001, 7:16 PM
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I have never added (or chopped) a bolt from any route. When I climb a bolted route that I feel has a long runout I just take some pro, use it and remove it when finished. I'm not going to change someone else's route. I would expect the same consideration if I put up a route. Add any pro you feel you need along the route if it scares you but don't add bolts.
Climb On
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coach
Jul 1, 2001, 7:48 PM
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Koolkitty, calm down. I said not to add or detract bolts from a route. Add pro if the route has a runout that bothers you and take it out when done. I have climbed routes that had bolts I didn't feel I needed so I passed them by but if I come to an area with no bolt that bothers me I just use a nut, hex or cam and clean it up when finished. Don't change another person's route!
Climb On
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wandt
Jul 1, 2001, 10:43 PM
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Lets stir the pot some more...
First: How does a bolt change the route? It's not like it's a hold. You don't step on it. You merely clip it.
Second: Unless you have some pretty awesome nuts that aren't available around here, I have no idea how you're gonna put in pro on a blank stretch. Not all routes have a continuous crack. That's what I'm talking about with the runout. Cracks, even with poor placements, can be made relatively safe when stuffed with gear, but if you run out of crack and it's a long ways to the next, what's wrong with a bolt?
Third: Mr. Kagunkie, the experience I'm referring to is experience in drilling and placing bolts correctly- not climbing experience.
By the way, even when I was working in a climbing gym, I've always climbed more outside than indoors.
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kagunkie
Jul 1, 2001, 11:34 PM
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Mr Wandt Im not sure I understand you correctly Im talking about, adding bolts to an already existing route not a first ascent. The rules are a little different with first ascents, sometimes we use bolts to protect a blank stretch but they must be placed on the lead usually only the smallest number possible are used and in this way we are a little more fair to the rock, it has a right to self defense too.Do you understand what Im trying to say? Most of the greatest routes ever climbed were put up this way. GROUND UP ETHIC is what we call it and its been the ethic since before either of us were born.What right do we have to change it? It would be disrespectfull to all the climbers who risked their own lives to put up all the great routes we enjoy climbing today. Personal risk is a part of the climbing game and without it its not the same game anymore. In addition to Mr Wandts last post a bolt does change a route, it takes something away from it. Does anybody know what that is?
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-07-01 17:36 ]
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kagunkie
Jul 1, 2001, 11:59 PM
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If I find bolts ADDED to an existing route I may just remove them myself. The thing that bolts take away from a route is called.... can we all say it together COMMITMENT. Climbing is about alot more than "doing the moves" my friend.
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-07-01 17:39 ]
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kagunkie
Jul 2, 2001, 12:10 AM
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all fixed gear schould blend in with its surroundings, bolts, webbing, whatever, its the least we could do to respect the rock and the other people who dont want to see our garbage. That is what it looks like to most non climbers.
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-07-01 17:42 ]
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climb512
Jul 2, 2001, 1:04 AM
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Leave them.Keep the dickheads off the rock who are bolting old routes as well as the ones chopping them. Leave the climbing to the 99% of us who climb in the spirit climbing was meant to be done in.
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kagunkie
Jul 2, 2001, 1:10 AM
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We dont chop bolts that were put up in good style, only those that are bastardizing the route put up in good style. If they werent put in on the first ascent they usually are not needed unless (rarely) its a case where the origional gear placements are for whatever reason non existant or damaged to a point where they cant be used anymore.
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-07-01 18:15 ]
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climb512
Jul 2, 2001, 1:13 AM
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Don't sweat it gunkie. If the DICKHEADS keep placing bolts on old routes then the park services and the tree huggers will close the cliffs off to climbers and we wont have anymore bolt wars to worry about.
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kagunkie
Jul 2, 2001, 1:17 AM
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I hope it never comes to that for sure. NOT IF I CAN DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
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kagunkie
Jul 2, 2001, 4:48 PM
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You dont know what your talking about. The ethics concerning this matter were around long before you or I were born and I dont think anyone has the right to change it now. YOU DONT ADD BOLTS TO AN EXISTING ROUTE PERIOD! Im not against the use of them at all in fact many of the routes Iv put up have them, all drilled on lead and used only where there is no other gear, thats all. Im saying the ground up ethic is a time tested tradition and we should honer and protect it becaus its there for a reason.Do you know what that reason is? A climb is something to aspire to, something, a challenge to witch we raise ourselves up through hard practice and learning of our own strengths and limits to meet. Some people would rather shoot fish in a barrell.Geerweanie do you know what Im saying. Im not a hard man at all. The highest grade Iv ever lead is 5.11 on a very good day and Im nowhere close to that now, but Id rather climb a lower grade and rely on whatever skill and guts I can find within myself to get to the top and not manufacturing a ladder of bolts to eliminate the commitment. There are alot of cliffs that dont really have any natural gear, put up your sport routes there and leave the traditional areas alone.
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learnintoclimb
Jul 3, 2001, 1:14 AM
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Chris Alber who had the bolts on the cornerstone he put there removed by Dieckhoff said that he didn't do it for him he did it for the lowest common denominator.
I agree with him. Kagunkie is just trying to make himself look all good(as in not a wuss). People learn to lead with climbs with bolts spaced only a couple feet apart. You've gotta start somewhere. Coach is a moron, IT'S CALLED A RUNOUT BECAUSE YOU CAN'T PLACE GEAR, EVEN TRAD.
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learnintoclimb
Jul 3, 2001, 1:15 AM
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Chris Alber who had the bolts on the cornerstone he put there removed by Dieckhoff said that he didn't do it for him he did it for the lowest common denominator.
I agree with him. Kagunkie is just trying to make himself look all good(as in not a wuss). People learn to lead with climbs with bolts spaced only a couple feet apart. You've gotta start somewhere. Coach is a moron, IT'S CALLED A RUNOUT BECAUSE YOU CAN'T PLACE GEAR, EVEN TRAD.
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climb512
Jul 3, 2001, 3:31 AM
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i must agree with kagunkie. do not place bolts on exsisting routes. there is no need or common sense in adding any. if you sport climb then use the sport routes in place. dont add new bolts because you cant afford cams and nuts. if it is an established route and it was bolted in making that route then NO one also has the right to remove it. if they want it harder or more "natural" then just dont use them. kind of like bad tv just change the channel.
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kagunkie
Jul 3, 2001, 4:23 PM
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Colby find an EXPERIENCED partner (someone with more than two or three years experience) and go climbing (outdoors) and stop reading those magazines for awile then maby you can have an opinion.
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coach
Jul 3, 2001, 8:47 PM
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Colby,
Sorry that you think I am a moron. I have climbed sport routes and never used a single bolt, only trad. If I find a long runout that I could not put any pro in at all and felt uneasy about it I would find another route until my skill was up to it but I am not afraid of (or a moron!) about adding pro to any route I wish to climb. When I finish and remove the pro the route is exactly as it was before. My ethic is that I will not change the route in any way from the FA but that does not mean that I will climb it the same way the FA did. I may decide to go off route at some point and that is my choice, not a breach of ethics.
Climb On
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coach
Jul 3, 2001, 10:04 PM
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Colby,
The correct definition of "runout" is the distance between two pieces of protection (ie; bolts on a bolted route) and a route is generally considered "runout" whenever the distance between protection is considered to be uncomfortable long. This does not necessarily mean that additional protection cannot be added between existing protection.
Climb On
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wandt
Jul 8, 2001, 3:01 AM
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Beerandblood: Please explain to me the corelation between an outdoor climbing route, which receives a first ascent by someone, rather than is created from scratch by someone, and a painting, which IS created from scratch. When I stare at a rock wall, I don't think "Wow, I could do so much with this blank canvass", I think "I guess I'll grab that hold and step on that one, 'cause they're there." It's really more like a colouring books. The lines are there, and everyone can add their own colours. Moderate bolting is only like choosing between crayons and felt tips. Why not let the colourer choose for themselves. Some folks just aren't comfortable with felt tips, because if you use that, fall on your way long ago felt tip in a poor placement, you're gonna have red marker ALL over the place, and your mom is gonna be mucho pissed about the laundry.
Maybe if you physically build the wall out of sand, compress it into rock, chisel the holds and then determine how many bolts are in it, you may consider it your own masterpiece and have the right to chop bolts. Otherwise, just live and let live/lead and let lead.
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