Creatine is not a nutrient. I said "nothing," but I meant "no essential nutrient."

Jay

I'd say from here or from here. But I'm not an expert, though.

An elegant respnse. I knew what I was going to see as soon as I moused over the link.

Jay

Great, you two have fun looking at your little diagrams... and ignore the QUANTITATIVE data on the benefits of creatine in power related sports...

I would think so, but about half the participants in the thread seem incapable of grasping its significance.

Jay

Yeah sure, Where are the athletes? You would tend to think that if the diets are so comprable that there would be tonnes of world class athletes who are veg......no?

First of all, no one has established that there aren't a lot of athletes who are vegetarians. Secondly, since the prevalence of vegetarianism is very something like 3% (in the US), then why would you assume that there would be "tonnes" of vegetarian athletes?

BTW, has anyone mentioned that there are no nutrients in meat that you can't get from other sources?

Jay

I have made this rather bold statement about there being no veg. top athletes numerous times, opening myself up to many potential attacks. Where were they? Why did nobody shut me up with a good list?
Personally I would jump on an opportunity like that.
Earlier you said that there were millions of vegetarians, athletes can come from places other than the USA you know. I don't want a huge list even, just proof that there are vegetarians who can excel to the maximum level of omnivores in sport, particularly where power is involved.

Although I do wish there were some way that I could shut you up, unfortunately I do not have such a list.

Maybe you should contact the Hindu Power Lifting Society.

Jay

... yet consider a factor of 1.5 to 2.0 significant and consider the errors not worth reporting.

Note that pro-veggie side did not provide any strong evidence to support their claims, apart of several propaganda websites and disjoint numbers. Weschrist went out, found a representative study that stated that vegeterian diet has lower impact and demonstrated that the conclusions are, at the very best, questionable, as his data analysis revealed flaws in the interpretation of the results. Note that weschrist does not say that omnivorous diet has less impact - all what he says that by just looking at one aspect of the study, we see serious flaws.

You can get the all the criteria for the construction of ecopoints here.

Note that, like I mentioned earlier, you can get all the hard data you need from the end-notes of that article. A number of the endnotes are even linked.

This bespeaks an ignorance of the modern scientific process. Weschrist may well be a scientist someday, but he's got a lot to learn about how to use a library and read an article. You, I have no data about.

As I have said, this is not my field. I am not familiar with the prominant journals, etc. However, it appears there are plenty of credible experts in the field willing and able to provide solid quantitative evidence into the health issues associated with creatine:

"Serum 8-hydroxy-2'-deoxyguanosine (8OH2'dG) levels, an indicator of oxidative injury to DNA, were markedly elevated in Huntington Disease and reduced by creatine treatment." (Hersch, SM, et al, 2006, "Creatine in Huntington disease is safe, tolerable, bioavailable in brain and reduces serum 8OH2'dG", Neurology, 24;66(2):250-2).

"Given its safety record, creatine might be considered as a novel therapeutic agent for inhibition of ischemic brain injury in humans." (Shu, S, et al, 2004, "Prophylactic Creatine Administration Mediates Neuroprotection in Cerebral Ischemia in Mice," Journal of Neuroscience, 24(26):5909-5912).

"Our findings suggest that the means to efficiently sustain CNS creatine concentration in hyperammonemic neonates and infants should be assessed to prevent impairment of axonogenesis and irreversible brain damage." (Braissant, O., et al, 2002, Journal of Neuroscience, "Ammonium-Induced Impairment of Axonal Growth Is Prevented through Glial Creatine" 22(22):9810-9820)

Oh, and for those of you worried about protection (and note the STATISTICS!):

"Chronic administration of previous termcreatinenext term [5mM] for 7 days significantly increased survival (by 1.32-fold) and soma size (by 1.12-fold) of dopaminergic neurons, while having no effect on other investigated morphological parameters. Most importantly, concurrent previous termcreatinenext term exerted significant neuroprotection for dopaminergic neurons against neurotoxic insults induced by serum and glucose deprivation (P<0.01), 1-methyl-4-phenyl pyridinium ion (MPP+) [15μM] and 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) [90μM] exposure (P<0.01). In addition, previous termcreatinenext term treatment significantly protected dopaminergic cells facing MPP+-induced deterioration of neuronal morphology including overall process length/neuron (by 60%), number of branching points/neuron (by 80%) and area of influence per individual neuron (by 60%). Less pronounced effects on overall process length/neuron and number of branching points/neuron were also found after 6-OHDA exposure (P<0.05) and serum/glucose deprivation (P<0.05). In conclusion, our findings identify previous termcreatinenext term as a rather potent natural survival- and neuroprotective factor for developing nigral dopaminergic neurons, which is of relevance for therapeutic approaches in Parkinson’s disease and for the improvement of cell replacement strategies." (Andres, R.H., et al., 2005, "Effects of creatinenext term treatment on the survival of dopaminergic neurons in cultured fetal ventral mesencephalic tissue," Neuroscience, v.133, 701-713).

Interestingly, these neurologically beneficial creatine levels are not attainable with a vegetarian diet. hmmmm....

The pissing contest about who has a bigger inner scientist is embarrassing. Makes me glad I studied in the Humanities.

Some other famous vegetarian athletes:

Bill Walton - NBA star

Hank Aaron - MLB's home run champion

Edwin Moses - Olympic track star

Carl Lewis - Olympic track star
- "I've found that a person does not need protein from meat to be a successful athlete. In fact, my best year of track competition was the first year I ate a vegan diet."

Show me an ecopoint for a specific crop. Show me where they are published. Give me one source in a peer reviewed journal with one published value for ecopoints on one single food item... someone from the field throw me a bone.

In return, ask me ANYTHING about geology and I will provide you with a specific list of specific articles with specific information about the topic.

A fair trade between scientist I would think...

This is called research. I'd think that with a masters degree, you'd be familiar with it.

Thank you annak.

I suppose I got caught up in the name calling, etc. I appreciate you reiterating the points I (we) were trying to make.

And good point with the error bars. This is especially important when the ecological impacts (a broad concept) are reported to be different by a factor of "roughly 1.5 to 2.0"

Of course you too are welcome to come over for some leg of lamb and a cup of hummingbird...