I teach the figure 8 without a backup knot and teach the students how to check the knot properly.

The figure 8, unlike the standard bowline, is a stable knot.

:lol: I've already done a pretty good job of hijacking this thread, thanks. :oops:

Lemme clarify. I agree that figure 8's don't need back up knots. Hell, you can pull two turns out of a follow-through and it'll probably still hold. I'm only arguing that it's a bad idea to teach somebody who has very little experience tying in with figure 8s that it's OK not to back them up. IMO, there's no guarantee that what they tie will always be a figure 8.

I'll argue further that chances are relatively good he or she will screw it up at some point in time. Granted, its likely that what they tie will be close enough that it will hold regardless. But as I mentioned, on at least two separate occasions, Ive seen back-up knots save lives. After having witnessed that first hand -- twice -- there's no way I would ever fail to teach back-up knots to a novice climber, especially a first timer who is probably already pretty overloaded with sensory input.

I'm topropping Outside and was wondering if someone can tell me some
basic knots to start off with? :?

Johnx13,

Before you do any roped climbing you need to master the figure 8 in it's correct configuration. There are two ways to tie it. One is stronger than the other. That's why the backup knot is important to your tie in knot. Once tied to your harness, the free end which you would tie the backup knot should be on the left side of the strand going to the top anchor. ( Note to flamers: This is straight from Yosemite SAR systems dating back to the 80's ).
The next knot you need to know is the mule knot with overhand backup so you can free your hands and yourself from the belay to begin initiating some sort of rescue for an injured partner. Learn the prussik knot so you can transfer loads and have a simple means to ascend in case a lower is not practical.
Finally, learn to tie the double/triple fisherman's knot. This knot is useful in tying ropes, slings and cord together when you want to be sure they don't come apart.
Once you have a clear command of the basic knots and understand their practicality to different situations, work on some others that are useful in specifics such as hitches and variants of the bowline family.
Choose simple, stable knots that you can easily tie and untie in stressful situations. Make sure your partners have the same capabilities.

Not trying to hijack this guys thread but.....So it would be safe to say that stoppers knots ARE important, BUT it depends on the knot on if it really needs to be backed up???.....What knots in your opinion would and wouldnt need backed up????........

I can name about a dozen knots/hitches that I use on a regular basis while climbing, and not one of them is an 'overhand knot' :?

Having learnt to climb in Ontario I was taught to back up the figure-8 with a double fisherman's note..

Anyway, I don't see what the big deal is with recommending the overhand... Everybody I know raps with it on a regular basis.

I've been climbing for almost 15 years and only regularly use 5 knots:

1) figure eight (on a bight as well as rewoven)
2) clove hitch
3) overhand
4) water knot
5) klemheist

Of course I practice a few other knots for rescue situations.

Anyway, I don't see what the big deal is with recommending the overhand... Everybody I know raps with it on a regular basis.

Back up knots for tie-ins are anything but unnecessary. On the contrary, if the climber screws up the tie-in badly enough and the pre-climb check fails to catch it, the back-up knot -- perhaps an overhand -- might be the only thing between him or her and the ground. Telling a beginner that such a back-up is worthless is far less responsible than telling him to learn an overhand, IMO.

But as I mentioned, on at least two separate occasions, Ive seen back-up knots save lives. After having witnessed that first hand -- twice -- there's no way I would ever fail to teach back-up knots to a novice climber, especially a first timer who is probably already pretty overloaded with sensory input.

[i]Here we go again with communication of safety information turning into chaos because people don't know the correct definition of terms. A backup knot for your tie-in knot is a backup knot, not a stopper knot. A stopper knot is a knot tied into the end of the rope to prevent the end of the rope from passing through something, like a belay or rappel device.Jay

Okay, so are you just using the overhand as stopper knot on your rap-line, or as an EDK?
From my personal experience, an overhand as a stopper tends to shake out quite easily (which is why I don't use it), and there is no way I would ever recommend a beginner use an EDK!
...or do you use an overhand for something else?

The issue is recommending it without saying what it can and can't be used for. In some applications it can be dangerous. The guy might be one of those morons that goes out to try and figure it out and remembers hey...overhand. I'll tie in with it.

You could say that about almost any climbing tool. The best advice given in this thread was to seek hands-on instruction. However, I don't see how it's helpful to the OP to make it seem like the overhand is somehow more dangerous than any other climbing tool when improperly used.

this poor guy/gal (OP) is now totally confused...

I use it as an EDK. I have no problem teaching it to new climbers. It's almost impossible to screw up, it's safe according to all the testing I've read, and it's the least likely knot out of the options I'm familiar with to get stuck when pulling the ropes. Just make sure you leave long tails, and don't rap off your tails.