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truello
Jul 2, 2007, 1:29 PM
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It's a combination of pride and history from what I've read. Can you imagine their reaction if a group of Americans showed up with a rope and a rack? Not to mention if one of the locals were "cowardly" enough to start using our safety methods.
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justthemaid
Jul 2, 2007, 2:49 PM
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What an interesting group they are.
Fascinating history. Seems like this has become ingrained into their culture.
Thanks for posting.
The pics from the turn of the century were really cool too.
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al_piner
Jul 2, 2007, 3:47 PM
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I've always seemed to enjoy climbs where I'm not tied in a little more than when protected . Even though you are a few grades below your limit and there is a sense of danger but I don't seem to feel it as much as when I'm pumped .
climbinwv wrote: Her friends husband is a manager of a park where thousands of people climb and many people die every year. I explained to her that a park here with that kind of record would be closed almost immediately.
God bless American freedom !
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time2clmb
Jul 2, 2007, 10:55 PM
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In reply to: explained to her that a park here with that kind of record would be closed almost immediately. She didn't understand this...she said that if a person want's to go out and do something dangerous that is their choice
She's absolutely right.
American's are intolerant and are ruled by lawyers. Watch Borat where he has the chickens on the subway LMFAO. And the cowboys...
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chouca
Jul 2, 2007, 11:22 PM
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The nanny state is in full bloom in the USA. It has steered the mindset of this country away from our former rugged individualism and self-reliance toward a group of ninnies finding somebody to blame and extort compensation from.
(This post was edited by chouca on Jul 2, 2007, 11:23 PM)
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lagr01
Jul 3, 2007, 12:32 AM
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bent_gate wrote: Wow. Well that definitely proves they didn't loose the Cold War from lack of cajones!
what do boxes have to do with it?
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bent_gate
Jul 3, 2007, 12:43 AM
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lagr01 wrote: bent_gate wrote: Wow. Well that definitely proves they didn't loose the Cold War from lack of cajones! what do boxes have to do with it?
D'oh!  er um, actually what I meant is that they certainly didn't lack enough cajones to store their cojones in. It was a very cold war after all. 
Yeah, that's it.
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scrambled_legs
Jul 28, 2007, 5:26 AM
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I don't know, I think preaching safety until someone is old enough to make an informed decision about risking their life, is not in anyway shape or form intolerant.
You guys are praising a group of people that honor children that die on a regular basis as well as the parents that push them to the point of death. Hell why don't we encourage our kids to run across railway bridges cause I know I used to enjoy doing that as a child???
Someone posts a series of shots of a free soloer dying and the next post is "Excellent radical shit!!!" What the fuck??? Am I the only one that sees something wrong here? In the 2nd shot you can see 3 kids probably no more than 4 years old sitting about 10' from where that guy smashed his brains out. Stolby disgusts me, it turns me off of all free soloing, I felt sick seeing those photos, why not go to Iraq if death is so exciting for you. They're like fucking lemmings running off of cliffs cause everyone else is doing it.
I for one am thankfull I was raised in a society where safety is praised and my parents didn't encourage me to play russian roulette, hell I didn't need any encouragement. I can only imagine what would've happend if I grew up in Stolby. I'd probably be just another wasted life dead at 13 with a disgracefull "honorable" funeral and proud parents.
I guess I'm missing the whole "culture" or "tradition" here but I really don't see much difference between this community and the ones that drink the funny cool-aid to meet the space ship that's coming to pick them up after they leave this earthly body. How are these deaths "honorable" or "Excellent, radical shit"???
(This post was edited by scrambled_legs on Jul 28, 2007, 5:48 AM)
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limeydave
Jul 28, 2007, 1:31 PM
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scrambled_legs wrote: I don't know, I think preaching safety until someone is old enough to make an informed decision about risking their life, is not in anyway shape or form intolerant. You guys are praising a group of people that honor children that die on a regular basis as well as the parents that push them to the point of death. Hell why don't we encourage our kids to run across railway bridges cause I know I used to enjoy doing that as a child??? Someone posts a series of shots of a free soloer dying and the next post is "Excellent radical shit!!!" What the fuck??? Am I the only one that sees something wrong here? In the 2nd shot you can see 3 kids probably no more than 4 years old sitting about 10' from where that guy smashed his brains out. Stolby disgusts me, it turns me off of all free soloing, I felt sick seeing those photos, why not go to Iraq if death is so exciting for you. They're like fucking lemmings running off of cliffs cause everyone else is doing it. I for one am thankfull I was raised in a society where safety is praised and my parents didn't encourage me to play russian roulette, hell I didn't need any encouragement. I can only imagine what would've happend if I grew up in Stolby. I'd probably be just another wasted life dead at 13 with a disgracefull "honorable" funeral and proud parents. I guess I'm missing the whole "culture" or "tradition" here but I really don't see much difference between this community and the ones that drink the funny cool-aid to meet the space ship that's coming to pick them up after they leave this earthly body. How are these deaths "honorable" or "Excellent, radical shit"???
Judging these people, their culture, tradition, history negatively when you know little about them is intolerant.
Their perception of reality may be different to yours in a radical way (haha) - but your closests friends perception of reality is different from yours too, just more subtle.
You think you're right because of your experience - which is fine, but judging those people in this way is arrogant. Thanks for the example.
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marcuder
Jul 28, 2007, 2:15 PM
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scrambled_legs wrote: I don't know, I think preaching safety until someone is old enough to make an informed decision about risking their life, is not in anyway shape or form intolerant. You guys are praising a group of people that honor children that die on a regular basis as well as the parents that push them to the point of death. Hell why don't we encourage our kids to run across railway bridges cause I know I used to enjoy doing that as a child??? Someone posts a series of shots of a free soloer dying and the next post is "Excellent radical shit!!!" What the fuck??? Am I the only one that sees something wrong here? In the 2nd shot you can see 3 kids probably no more than 4 years old sitting about 10' from where that guy smashed his brains out. Stolby disgusts me, it turns me off of all free soloing, I felt sick seeing those photos, why not go to Iraq if death is so exciting for you. They're like fucking lemmings running off of cliffs cause everyone else is doing it. I for one am thankfull I was raised in a society where safety is praised and my parents didn't encourage me to play russian roulette, hell I didn't need any encouragement. I can only imagine what would've happend if I grew up in Stolby. I'd probably be just another wasted life dead at 13 with a disgracefull "honorable" funeral and proud parents. I guess I'm missing the whole "culture" or "tradition" here but I really don't see much difference between this community and the ones that drink the funny cool-aid to meet the space ship that's coming to pick them up after they leave this earthly body. How are these deaths "honorable" or "Excellent, radical shit"???
What's called 'Safety' in the West is called 'Laughing all the way to the bank.' by insurance brokers and lawyers. You know, there is something to be said for celebrating Freedom of Choice in a place that used to have none...
Incidentally, it's funny that we live in such a free society but we can't chose how and when we can die with dignity... THAT'S sad.
(This post was edited by marcuder on Jul 28, 2007, 2:22 PM)
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scrambled_legs
Jul 28, 2007, 2:38 PM
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limeydave wrote: Judging these people, their culture, tradition, history negatively when you know little about them is intolerant. Their perception of reality may be different to yours in a radical way (haha) - but your closests friends perception of reality is different from yours too, just more subtle. You think you're right because of your experience - which is fine, but judging those people in this way is arrogant. Thanks for the example.
If it's intolerant to be against having a group of 4 year olds get splattered by brain matter from a free soloist and have women and children die on a regular basis, then yes, yes I am
Cannibalism is steeped in history and culture too. Am I intolerant and arrogant to judge them? How is this any different than the psychos drinking cool-aid or eating each other?
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limeydave
Jul 28, 2007, 2:41 PM
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scrambled_legs wrote: limeydave wrote: Judging these people, their culture, tradition, history negatively when you know little about them is intolerant. Their perception of reality may be different to yours in a radical way (haha) - but your closests friends perception of reality is different from yours too, just more subtle. You think you're right because of your experience - which is fine, but judging those people in this way is arrogant. Thanks for the example. If it's intolerant to be against having a group of 4 year olds get splattered by brain matter from a free soloist and have women and children die on a regular basis, then yes, yes I am Cannibalism is steeped in history and culture too. Am I intolerant and arrogant to judge them? How is this any different than the psychos drinking cool-aid or eating each other?
Don't disagree with your point about the kids.
I happen to think the parents are arseholes too.
It's still arrogant to impose your values on other people - being right is irrelevant.
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marcuder
Jul 28, 2007, 3:44 PM
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limeydave wrote: scrambled_legs wrote: limeydave wrote: Judging these people, their culture, tradition, history negatively when you know little about them is intolerant. Their perception of reality may be different to yours in a radical way (haha) - but your closests friends perception of reality is different from yours too, just more subtle. You think you're right because of your experience - which is fine, but judging those people in this way is arrogant. Thanks for the example. If it's intolerant to be against having a group of 4 year olds get splattered by brain matter from a free soloist and have women and children die on a regular basis, then yes, yes I am Cannibalism is steeped in history and culture too. Am I intolerant and arrogant to judge them? How is this any different than the psychos drinking cool-aid or eating each other? Don't disagree with your point about the kids. I happen to think the parents are arseholes too. It's still arrogant to impose your values on other people - being right is irrelevant.
Well, one can argue about how to bring up kids is a cultural thing as well, as such I don't think it shouldn't fall under our scrutiny. As far as the kid dying there is just so much we don't know about how he was brought up and what 'pushed' him to solo... but that's how we here get into trouble - we make assumptions about other people’s culture and we send our own kids to die for our values. Not exactly moral endeavor taking young and impressionable kids, giving them a gun, teaching them to use it while screaming ‘kill’, and then unleashing them on a society of people who’s values are perceived ‘different;’.
Anyhow, my point is that if people just worried about what’s in their own backyard perhaps we wouldn’t have all this trouble in the world… Samuel Johnson was right when he said "Hell is paved with good intentions."
(Notice above that the advertising banner on top of this page may display an ad for a US Army sponsored video game for kids.... irony on top of irony...)
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stymingersfink
Jul 28, 2007, 5:21 PM
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scrambled_legs wrote: If it's intolerant to be against having a group of 4 year olds get splattered by brain matter from a free soloist and have women and children die on a regular basis, then yes, yes I am
I might think allowing a 4 y.o. to see first hand just how dangerous an activity might be, BEFORE they decide to participate in the activity, is just good sense. I have a feeling that the children growing up there do not harbor any romantic misconceptions of what death is all about.
The Stolbists who have lost their lives, participating fully in an activity they love...
at least they've lived before they died...
Have you?
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thomasribiere
Jul 28, 2007, 5:41 PM
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This is an interesting video about an impressive way to practice rock climbing. Apparently, most people climb the "normal route" which seems "OK".
But all these other climbers "solo-monkeying" around are stunning : they seem to have such fun that solo just doesn't look like a peculiar and anecdotical way to climb but like a game and a routinely activity. It has to be compared with some Brit or "east-german" or Czech ways of climbing which are almost as radical, in the sense that it must be close to the roots of our sport : reaching a summit for the pleasure of it and according to each one's skills.
Thanks for the different links posted in this thread.
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marcuder
Jul 28, 2007, 6:59 PM
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Interesting observation - in some parts of the world people live with everyday dangers that make things like soloing pale in comparison. I mean, to us mountain goats seem like these fantastic daredevils that surefootedly prance high on rocks, some may even thinkt hey're foolhardy to be living in that kind of environtment... but then there are preditors down below that are infinately more dangerouss on 'safe' ground. Think of what kids in Iraq have to deal with right now - can anyone here really imagine living every day with the possibility that you might be maimed or killed by being in the wrong place at wrong time? There is nothing here we can relate to that's anywhere near the kind of stress people live with in other places. It's all relative. On this continent people get worked up if anything is remotely unsafe, and concequently have abdicated taking responsibility for our lives and actions. I say, own your life and if that means doing crazy things... so be it. Just as long as you don't hurt anyone else doing it.
(This post was edited by marcuder on Jul 28, 2007, 7:00 PM)
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notapplicable
Jul 28, 2007, 7:28 PM
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scrambled_legs wrote: limeydave wrote: Judging these people, their culture, tradition, history negatively when you know little about them is intolerant. Their perception of reality may be different to yours in a radical way (haha) - but your closests friends perception of reality is different from yours too, just more subtle. You think you're right because of your experience - which is fine, but judging those people in this way is arrogant. Thanks for the example. If it's intolerant to be against having a group of 4 year olds get splattered by brain matter from a free soloist and have women and children die on a regular basis, then yes, yes I am Cannibalism is steeped in history and culture too. Am I intolerant and arrogant to judge them? How is this any different than the psychos drinking cool-aid or eating each other?
With the example of cannibalism you are talking about killing another person in order to consume there flesh which is a direct infringement on that persons rights and freedoms but the choice to solo is an act of taking ones own life into ones own hands and doing with it what you will. People have to have that option, that choice is integral to freedom, no matter how abstract the concept may appear. We are all going to die so the argument that it is rude or unethical to impose your death on the loved ones in your life doesnt hold any water with me. The same goes for suicide, how could I expect my emotional feelings to weigh on someone's decision to end there life. I can't count the times I have heard people say that suicide is "the most selfish thing a person can do". Thats total B.S.
Edited: to finish my thought, I hit "post reply" instead of "preview post"
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Jul 28, 2007, 7:42 PM)
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crotch
Jul 28, 2007, 8:58 PM
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scrambled_legs
Jul 28, 2007, 11:39 PM
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Are you guys for real???
You're actually defending suicide as an acceptable action???
Yes some people have life hard and live in conditions far more dangerous than a stolby soloist. The main difference there is that they don't have a choice!!! Stolby has a choice!!!
Still, they continue to watch their children make splatter marks on the ground rather than suck up their fucked up pride and give them a rope and anchors, until they're knowledgable and mature enough to make their own informed decision whether they want to solo or not. If the old guy that slipped died, I wouldn't care, it was his choice his decision, but the fact that he never and a kid did makes me sick. "This happens all the time at Stolby" It doesn't have to is my point. They could continue to live their very unique lives intertwined with climbing without these pointless, stupid, meaningless child deaths.
You guys seem to have no problem with a bunch of Russians doing this to their children. Are you really saying that if you saw someone at a crag encouraging his 8 year old son to climb a polished slab at the edge of his ability, unroped, while his younger siblings stood and watched, you'd have no problem with this??? Are you saying its ok because its been going on for a really long time and its a part of their culture or what is the difference between them doing it and you doing it to your own children??? Yes I'm very narrowminded???? How about sane and responsible for the lives of my children not wishing any harm come unto them.
Yes I've lived before I died, you don't need to shed the rope on a 5.12 to do that!!! No my parents never lost any of us kids when we were being raised. Would life have been that much better if my brother was killed?
I remember hearing a story from a friend of mine who was doing Aid work in Africa. He brought a bunch of Condoms to a remote African village to try and educate the public on birth control and HIV prevention. This village had a ridiculous amount of children and adults continuously suffering and dying from HIV. They giggled throughout the presentation and then blew them up to make balloons. Meanwhile whenever one of the men died of Aids, they would have all of his male siblings rape that mans partner to rid her of the evil spirits, each contracting Aids and passing it on to their partners in return. Sometimes culture and tradition is purely fucking stupid!!! But maybe I'm just a narrowminded "American." Go on commit suicide and kill your children, RC.com apparently supports it.
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Banks
Jul 29, 2007, 12:00 AM
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scrambled_legs wrote: Are you guys for real???
Are you?
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limeydave
Jul 29, 2007, 12:51 AM
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scrambled_legs wrote: Are you guys for real??? ...
What you seem unable to grasp is the following:
Whether you're amazed by their stupidity or impressed by their bravery, you must respect their culture.
In brief: It's not suicide. Those people were all smiling! Pride stops them putting up anchors? Doubt it.... You would care if an old guy slipped and died. Yes children dying is also sad. Not your place to change it though - not your culture. AIDS in Africa for an analogy? Come on.
We have a culture here of letting people own guns with very little regulation. Want to compare Stolby solo child deaths with <16yrs deaths due to guns in the USA??
I'm gonna have to stop now before this thing ends up in the soapbox.
Peace - and don't forget to use a condom. Please.
(This post was edited by limeydave on Jul 29, 2007, 12:56 AM)
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scrambled_legs
Jul 29, 2007, 1:00 AM
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The analogy with Africa was exactly that, an extreme example of a culture that no-one should respect. Sure it's extreme but if you don't respect that one, why should I respect this one? It's no different, they both involve needless death and suffering except this one involves climbing.
I'm sure they weren't all smiling when yet another person falls to their death. If they are, then they're really messed up. The people in that African village were all smiles as well. No its not my place to change it but I certainly will not condone it. Sure, compare it to the needless deaths from firearms in the US. That seems like a pretty stupid culture as well doesn't it, but who are we to critisize culture right? Definetly not "Awesome radical shit"!!!
(This post was edited by scrambled_legs on Jul 29, 2007, 1:04 AM)
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Basta916
Jul 29, 2007, 1:08 AM
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scrambled_legs wrote: Yes some people have life hard and live in conditions far more dangerous than a stolby soloist. The main difference there is that they don't have a choice!!! Stolby has a choice!!!
You said it....and they made there choice......so take is as that.....
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scrambled_legs
Jul 29, 2007, 1:11 AM
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And is an 8 year old kid really mature enough to make a proper choice??? Are you against age limits for recruiting in the army? How is that different?
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Basta916
Jul 29, 2007, 2:14 AM
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scrambled_legs wrote: And is an 8 year old kid really mature enough to make a proper choice??? Are you against age limits for recruiting in the army? How is that different?
Army?????? solo climbing?????? what??????
8 year olds climb.....trees..fences...garages....rocks...whatever...and that is the way 8 year olds are.
Now, what they do....well it can have serious results...
but they know what can happen...and looks like they accept it....Sooooo why do you have problem with that???????
Are you the guy that drives around with " SAVE LIFE" and so on stickers all over your car...I think thats great, because it was your choice to put them on your car. However, if someone else did, then that would be wrong.. GET IT??????
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