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bkalaska
May 7, 2008, 6:22 PM
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It seems like a lot of force, and I don't think your pack added too much weight. Were you by chance using a static (not dynamic) rope for your self belay? I am sure Metolius would send you a new harness if you sent it to them. Materials should not wear out after three years unless you are using it a lot, or leaving it exposed to the sun or chemicals. If you use it enough that the whole thing is looking worn enough that you think Metolius won't send you a new one, than you use the harness enough to justify buying a new one.
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glahhg
May 7, 2008, 6:26 PM
Post #27 of 74
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I think your idea would work. You probably should bounce it and get it really tight before you sew the bartacks on.
You could probably also use some cord with a double fisherman's.
I'd be on the lookout for a new harness though just so I don't have to deal with checking it all the time.
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MikeSaint
May 7, 2008, 6:53 PM
Post #28 of 74
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jungle_george wrote: Went home over lunch - took 2 crappy pics with my cell phone. You should be able to see what I'm talking about at least... I've decided to back the belay loop up for the short term, and start looking around for a deal on a new harness. Do any of you guys know if Yates still re-slings gear, or if they'll do soft goods? I guess I could call them myself.
Jungle George, I just want to apologize for my brief troll accusation. Those pictures are interesting, I think you would benefit by calling Metolius, explaining the situation..
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majid_sabet
May 7, 2008, 7:03 PM
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The OP accidentally mentioned something so important in here that I am sure he is not even aware of himself and I know at least one climber who died due to belay loop failure in a similar situation. No, it was not the bad, torn, old belay loop by itself the issue here but what caused the belay loop to snap is something you guys need to worry about.
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ryanb
May 7, 2008, 7:07 PM
Post #30 of 74
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Contact Metoliius. A buddy of mine was on a year long road trip a few years ago and his belay loop started to look pretty warn, he was at smith at the time so he swung by the metollius store in bend and they told him he couldn't leave till they had replaced it, free of charge I think.
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healyje
May 7, 2008, 7:07 PM
Post #31 of 74
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From the pictures you posted it looks like the belay loop was cut/point-abraided by something sharp while under load.
Send it back to Metolius - they'll either replace the belay loop or probably offer a discount on a new harness. I doubt they will simply replace it as again, it looks to have been cut/abraided by something. They are real good about responding to this sort of thing and they'd probably appreciate a closer look at the harness.
Edit: Well, on reading Ryan's post, there you go - you never know I suppose. Please send it in to them regardless...
(This post was edited by healyje on May 7, 2008, 7:09 PM)
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irregularpanda
May 7, 2008, 7:15 PM
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j_ung wrote: Sounds like your biner's lock caught the belay loop. I've had the exact same thing happen before. I replaced the harness. HOWEVER, I also understand cheapness. Your idea of backing up the belay loop with webbing will work just fine as a short-term fix, with a few cautionary points: 1. Why not just use 1" tubular? It's not that much more bulky and you can probably measure it out so it fits inside your belay loop, out for the way. 2. Forget back-up knots on the webbing and forget bartacking, too. Instead, keep the tails a little long, and cinch the knot down so the loop pinches around the loose ends. 3. Bounce test the loop to set the knot and make sure it won't untie under cyclical loading. 4. Check the webbing and your harness tie-in points before and after every use. Good to go, but even so, recognize this isn't a good long-term solution, as I suspect it'll increase the rate of wear on your harness (not to mention the webbing).
Yeah, if you're gonna be a cowboy and do the cowboy fix just to save pennies, pony up and ride it already!
Just be aware of all the warnings here. My 0.02 is this: a sewing machine does NOT make bar tacks.
the best way to tighten a water knot is to do what j_ung said, but get it wet first, it will cinch down more and you'll never be able to loosen it.
And Majid: if you're going to allude to a cryptic belay loop failure: don't. Pony up.
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summerprophet
May 7, 2008, 7:34 PM
Post #33 of 74
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Most climbing gear I would not hesitate at looking for legitimate methods of repairing it, however, Belay loops are another matter.
Really, I think of greater concern is if you are willing to skimp on the belay loop, what condition is your rope in? I mean seriously, I go through a rope a year, and harnesses typically only get replaced every 4 years.
You can get a cheap harness for $30. Having Yates make you a new loop after their costs and shipping is likely going to be about the same.
Preloading a tied sling to 9 kn (Rescue safety standards) also poses a problem. How much will lthat cost you?
I would honestly rather be soloing than climbing with questionable equipment, atleast you have a better idea of the result.
For the time being (until your new harness comes in) I would risk crossloading your biners through both leg and waist loops, rather than trust a tied sling.
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MikeSaint
May 7, 2008, 8:11 PM
Post #34 of 74
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majid_sabet wrote: The OP accidentally mentioned something so important in here that I am sure he is not even aware of himself and I know at least one climber who died due to belay loop failure in a similar situation. No, it was not the bad, torn, old belay loop by itself the issue here but what caused the belay loop to snap is something you guys need to worry about.
Majid actually provides an interesting perspective in assessing this situation. While your harness is being replaced or repaired, it might benefit you to reevaluate your roped soloing system. There are a lot of options, and configurations for a given system. Key in a search and you'll find plenty of hits.
(Personally I prefer a Wren Soloist for top roping, although I have yet to lead on it).
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majid_sabet
May 7, 2008, 8:39 PM
Post #35 of 74
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MikeSaint wrote: majid_sabet wrote: The OP accidentally mentioned something so important in here that I am sure he is not even aware of himself and I know at least one climber who died due to belay loop failure in a similar situation. No, it was not the bad, torn, old belay loop by itself the issue here but what caused the belay loop to snap is something you guys need to worry about. Majid actually provides an interesting perspective in assessing this situation. While your harness is being replaced or repaired, it might benefit you to reevaluate your roped soloing system. There are a lot of options, and configurations for a given system. Key in a search and you'll find plenty of hits. (Personally I prefer a Wren Soloist for top roping, although I have yet to lead on it).
You are getting closer but you still have not identified the following yet;
1-What really assist in belay loop failure? (Torn, worn, or old material has nothing to do with this issue).
2-What causes the # 1 to create such problem?
3-In what situation, # 2 is becoming a problem and why
4- And finally, how can you avoid this problem (A disaster if you chose to ignore it
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evanhorvath
May 7, 2008, 8:54 PM
Post #36 of 74
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Hmmm, I would say that you should definetly replace the harness. It is really an issue of your life. At the very lest, send it out to have a new one professionally bartacked on. Metolius can probably do this or point you in the right direction. I know they very able to add a few loops to my PAS no problem.
One thing to consider is that your belay loop is actually two loops inside themselves. If you turn it on the edge, you will see the different layers. If you were to tie in a new piece of webbing, I'd make it two. A less bulky option might be to get two short slings and girth hitch them through the tie in. Them you could clip them both.
Really, though, you should get a new harness. ebay has brand new safe-techs for $39. Also, metolius might even replace it for you.
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acorneau
May 7, 2008, 9:49 PM
Post #37 of 74
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I'll agree with the others that replacing your harness would be best (and it sounds like Metolius might hook you up). Having a professional put on a new loop would be good as well.
Also, check out this video of belay loop testing from Wild Country:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rE8lICiDOWQ
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angry
May 7, 2008, 10:08 PM
Post #38 of 74
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What a stupid assertation majid. That the reason belay loops (one, ever, in extremely bad shape) fail is because people use them and trust them.
This line of thinking is akin to guns causing shootings and cars causing accidents when the reality is the person and how they use it.
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majid_sabet
May 7, 2008, 10:47 PM
Post #39 of 74
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angry wrote: What a stupid assertation majid. That the reason belay loops (one, ever, in extremely bad shape) fail is because people use them and trust them. This line of thinking is akin to guns causing shootings and cars causing accidents when the reality is the person and how they use it.
Sorry dude, I guess you and the rest of the gang think that you have all facts and continuously seek for an easy answer such as “just replace the harness and problem will fix itself" .
That is like applying a quick bondo to patch a dent. You need to figure out what cause the dent at the first place. try to analyze the fuc* out of a problem and figure out why sh*t like that happens .
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angry
May 7, 2008, 10:55 PM
Post #40 of 74
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majid_sabet wrote: angry wrote: What a stupid assertation majid. That the reason belay loops (one, ever, in extremely bad shape) fail is because people use them and trust them. This line of thinking is akin to guns causing shootings and cars causing accidents when the reality is the person and how they use it. Sorry dude, I guess you and the rest of the gang think that you have all facts and continuously seek for an easy answer such as “just replace the harness and problem will fix itself" . That is like applying a quick bondo to patch a dent. You need to figure out what cause the dent at the first place. try to analyze the fuc* out of a problem and figure out why sh*t like that happens .
No Majid. Read again.
I specifically said that the problem as you see it is that belay loops ARE the problem. They are a single point to fail and therefore should not be trusted. That is what you wanted to hear. I never ever said that he should replace the harness.
The problem with your idea Majid, is that you are wrong. Fine Majid, call the entire population of climbers lazy fueled by an entire industry who insists on putting belay loops on pretty much every harness made. It doesn't hurt my feelings.
It doesn't however make you right. It just makes you arrogant and paranoid.
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majid_sabet
May 7, 2008, 11:25 PM
Post #41 of 74
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angry wrote: majid_sabet wrote: angry wrote: What a stupid assertation majid. That the reason belay loops (one, ever, in extremely bad shape) fail is because people use them and trust them. This line of thinking is akin to guns causing shootings and cars causing accidents when the reality is the person and how they use it. Sorry dude, I guess you and the rest of the gang think that you have all facts and continuously seek for an easy answer such as “just replace the harness and problem will fix itself" . That is like applying a quick bondo to patch a dent. You need to figure out what cause the dent at the first place. try to analyze the fuc* out of a problem and figure out why sh*t like that happens . No Majid. Read again. I specifically said that the problem as you see it is that belay loops ARE the problem. They are a single point to fail and therefore should not be trusted. That is what you wanted to hear. I never ever said that he should replace the harness. The problem with your idea Majid, is that you are wrong. Fine Majid, call the entire population of climbers lazy fueled by an entire industry who insists on putting belay loops on pretty much every harness made. It doesn't hurt my feelings. It doesn't however make you right. It just makes you arrogant and paranoid.
I never said belay loop were the problem.
I am saying some thing else is causing the belay loop to fail and that what you guys need to focus on.
If a kid is burning a house down and you keep taking his matches away, you are not solving the problem
you need to figure out why kid likes matches.
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evanhorvath
May 7, 2008, 11:45 PM
Post #42 of 74
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I think Majid actually made a very good assertion.
He wasn't saying that belay loops are bad or untrustworthy.
According to the OP, this belay loop didn't infact "snap" in the sense that its strength was exceeded. Rather, from what the OP has said, it is more likely that something in the system caused a pinch cut in the belay loop. This IS cause for careful reevaluation of your system, much in the same way a fray in your line is cause for you to inspect pulleys and biners for sharp edges.
Incidentally, belay loops are not single points of protection. they are, as I said, two loops of webbing inside eachother. They are bartacked together, which increases the strength of the loop by creating a friction system much like a primitive slack line setup. You can demonstrate this theory yourself by taking a piece of webbing wrapping it inside itself(as a spiral) and them simply taping the ends off. With just tape, you create somethign that holds body weight.
Its not really anything to get angry about, though.
angry wrote: majid_sabet wrote: angry wrote: What a stupid assertation majid. That the reason belay loops (one, ever, in extremely bad shape) fail is because people use them and trust them. This line of thinking is akin to guns causing shootings and cars causing accidents when the reality is the person and how they use it. Sorry dude, I guess you and the rest of the gang think that you have all facts and continuously seek for an easy answer such as “just replace the harness and problem will fix itself" . That is like applying a quick bondo to patch a dent. You need to figure out what cause the dent at the first place. try to analyze the fuc* out of a problem and figure out why sh*t like that happens . No Majid. Read again. I specifically said that the problem as you see it is that belay loops ARE the problem. They are a single point to fail and therefore should not be trusted. That is what you wanted to hear. I never ever said that he should replace the harness. The problem with your idea Majid, is that you are wrong. Fine Majid, call the entire population of climbers lazy fueled by an entire industry who insists on putting belay loops on pretty much every harness made. It doesn't hurt my feelings. It doesn't however make you right. It just makes you arrogant and paranoid. |
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knudenoggin
May 8, 2008, 12:13 AM
Post #43 of 74
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jungle_george wrote: Looked down and saw my belay loop was ripped about 1/5 of the way through. ... I'm thinking about a loop of 9/16" webbing tied with a water knot.
It's interesting to read all of the gung-ho, throw-da-bum-out replies,
which were to be expected.
It was either Kolin Powick of BDEL (I think) or Sterling_Jim who
tested belay loops with increasingly severe cut-throughs to
assess their strength: they are VERY strong.
(This was done following the tragic death from an old, worn
loop.)
So, you're fine w/what you plan to do, adding a simple
back-up, for peace of mind.
*kN*
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Myxomatosis
May 8, 2008, 12:29 AM
Post #44 of 74
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Cut the loop off and get some webbing/sling and tie it on (water knot) and you could back that up again by doing two loops..... eg two belay loops.
but personally Id go to the manufactor to see if it can be fixed and if it couldn't.... id just buy a new harness there are some really cheap ones around....
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limeydave
May 8, 2008, 12:47 AM
Post #45 of 74
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angry wrote: I bought a new harness the other day. It's a Petzl. It seems like they've gone the path of metolius scare tactics and want you to rap off their gear loops too. It's the same old plastic gear loops with what appears to be tubular webbing slid over them. Seriously, how many effing people rap off their fucking gear loops? Could reverting back to normal harnesses fix the problem of overcrowded crags? FWIW, 12 years ago I stopped by "Troll" (really, it's a british harness company made in Laramie, WY mostly firefighter stuff though) and their harnesses even then had strong gear loops. So um, it's nothing new.
I have a Troll harness I picked up in England 10-12 years ago - still going strong - not my main harness anymore of course, but I still use it from time to time if I lend my new one to a noob.
OP: $40 > your life / piece of mind ?
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angry
May 8, 2008, 5:37 AM
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I would agree with you about finding the cause of the tear but pretty much everyone was asking about that and the OP said what the cause was in his second post. In his first post he was asking for advice on his harness, not speculation as to what caused the damage.
So yes, he already knew there was something wrong with the system and logic would dictate that after he replaces his harness (which is fine by the way) he will set it up differently so this doesn't happen again. My suggestion is a regular steel locking biner, not autolocking. That's what I use, but I digress.
Then tromps Majid in with his typical "I know everything" attitude and says
"You not know what real problem is, me smart!!"
The reply was an answer of what the exact problem was.
He responds "You wrong, you not know problem, I smart you n00b!!"
So since the cause of this tear had been covered and recovered then covered again I felt safe assuming that Majid was pulling some dumbass anti-belay loop arguement. The whole cars get flat tires because they drive on the ground, people die because they live bullshit arguement. It clearly couldn't have been to look at the system that caused the rip because the OP covered that already and didn't ask about it.
That is just a quirk I have. I have no tolerance with those of limited reading comprehension trying to hold what everyone already knows above our heads as some kind of secret knowledge.
So to repeat the repeated. Yes, the OP should figure out what caused the rip, just like he did prior to the first post.
Sometimes a question is just a question.
Majid, are you ever gonna take me up on my challenge? If you remember I've got $1000 saying you that you have to follow me around for a week and any time in the middle of the week, you can stop me and make me take your SAR fitness test. If I can't break your best time, I owe you $1000. I'd suggest you find a really really busy week so I'll be tired, it's a long shot but your only chance.
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jmvc
May 8, 2008, 2:20 PM
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angry wrote: Seriously, how many effing people rap off their fucking gear loops?
I have actually heard of one that clipped into the anchor with a gear loop.. As he was still on belay he just took an unexpected fall.. Could have been worse if the loop took a minute or two to break..
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billcoe_
May 8, 2008, 9:35 PM
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Alt idea: How about just backing it up with a large locking biner through your leg loops/waist harness till you fix it.
Should be "Bob's your Uncle" till ya get around to it.
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evanwish
May 9, 2008, 12:35 AM
Post #49 of 74
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jungle_george wrote: I've decided to back the belay loop up for the short term, and start looking around for a deal on a new harness.
this sounds familiar.... like Todd Skinner
if i recal correctly his belay loop too worn but he decided to climb on it because he was planning on recieving a new one. and everybody knows where the story goes from there. even experts can have gear fail.
be safe, buy a new harnes.
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fjclimbsrocks
May 9, 2008, 12:51 AM
Post #50 of 74
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Uh, I know we're past this, and on to figuring out what caused the rip, but....it's a BELAY loop....it's the part of your harness which you typically use to belay other people...which led me to think that even though I don't really know you, your unwillingness to replace such a crucial piece of equipment makes me feel like I would never let you belay me...which led me to wonder if that had something to do with your soloing in the first place. I"m just sayin'...
(This post was edited by fjclimbsrocks on May 9, 2008, 12:56 AM)
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