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coclimber26
Dec 12, 2002, 11:54 PM
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Long daisy girthed to my tie in point.
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pbcowboy77
Dec 13, 2002, 12:13 AM
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Clove hitch, if I need more rope I use a long daisy beacuse I can wrap it around my waist and it's out of the way
-Zac
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climber1
Dec 13, 2002, 4:20 AM
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rope. using a figure 8 on a bight.
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varstar10
Dec 13, 2002, 6:05 AM
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Im with jt512...
Jon
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alpinelynx
Dec 13, 2002, 6:21 AM
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clove hitch
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mrsmylie
Dec 13, 2002, 6:31 AM
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Back in the day I used a daisy, but with the advent of the sport anchor, or clip and lower, I just make sure I have enough draws to get up and down. If I have to tie through, I only use one of the two draws that are hanging on the anchor. I pull up some rope and tie it to myself so that I won't be stranded.
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pbjosh
Dec 13, 2002, 6:41 AM
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I usually untie, thread the rope through the hangers and retie. F*ck draws. Makes routes pumpier though. I call it a macho-point.
josh
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bouldertoad
Dec 13, 2002, 6:42 AM
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I use my cordellette with my rope through a locking biner to my harness when doing trad climbs but sport climbing just use two draws then rethread and lower or rappel.
Maybe I am mistaken but i though daisy chains were not meant to be used as a primary anchor point. I know that between the loops on the chain there is not full strength. I guess i have never used oine so maybe i am wrong...
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shortfatoldguy
Dec 13, 2002, 3:00 PM
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>I know that between the loops on the chain >there is not full strength.
The individual loops are rated for body weight. That's why you *always* leave it clipped through the very end, no matter what loop you're clipping through, in addition (so it's the equivalent of a long full-strength runner). I use it--as I think most people do--as one of two points of attachment to the anchor.
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climblouisiana
Dec 13, 2002, 3:30 PM
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Depends on the situation. Mostly the rope because it's easiest to adjust to the right length.
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mountainmonkey
Dec 13, 2002, 3:44 PM
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Quote:"I know that between the loops on the chain there is not full strength." - bouldertoad
"The individual loops are rated for body weight. That's why you *always* leave it clipped through the very end, no matter what loop you're clipping through, in addition (so it's the equivalent of a long full-strength runner). I use it--as I think most people do--as one of two points of attachment to the anchor." - shortfatoldguy
So let me get this strait. You clip in the daisy to the end and then you also clip the into one of the loops to adjust your length. If the loop was to fail you would shock load the anchor and, depending on how much extension you have, you could blow the daisy and possibly a carabiner with the force from the static shock load. This would be no big deal if you were only cleaning a 1 pitch anchor but as part of a multipitch belay it is plain stupid and you could kill yourself and your partner. Besides, why take an additional piece of gear that is very specialized and not useful for anything else.
Also, see www.petzl.com on how to clean a 1 pitch anchor by threading it without untying or being taken off belay.
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jiadar
Dec 13, 2002, 3:55 PM
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Girth hiched runner through the tie-in points and clove hitch on the climbing rope
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rrrADAM
Dec 13, 2002, 4:18 PM
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I use a 4' piece of tubular webbing with loops on each end... One end girth hitched to my belay loop, the other with a locker. This is made shorter by a mule knot, I think that's the name, or no knot for full length. Always kept short when climbing, so it doesn't interfere with climbing, and can be weighted short, I only go long when I need the room.
I make this redundant by also clove hitching my rope into the same locker with slack on the rope. (Note-All climbers should do this anyway do build redundancey into their system.)
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2002-12-13 08:20 ]
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mountainmonkey
Dec 13, 2002, 4:39 PM
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From www.fishproducts.com:
Quote:Re: Belay anchors: why not use daisy chains?
Author: Chris Harmston
Email: chrish@bdel.com
Date: 1997/12/16
Forums: rec.climbing
The ratings of BD daisy's are as follows (3 sigma ratings):
Material End to End Pocket
Nylon 16 kN (3597 lbf) 3 kN (674 lbf)
Spectra 19 kN (4271 lbf) 3 kN (674 lbf)
Why don't we recommend a Daisy as your primary anchor? Because your rope
is safer. Worn Daisy's are significantly weaker. If you clip into more
than one pocket with your carabiner you could find yourself in space if
you riped the pocket tacks. Use your rope with a locking biner as the
primary anchor and use your daisy as a backup and as the adjustability.
Don't trust a single piece with your life either. Two Daisy's are plenty
strong. Your rope is still safer.
Chris Harmston (chrish@bdel.com).
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer BS, ME.
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Gary Carson wrote:
> I remember seeing this "body-weight only" disclaimer on Black Diamond
> (I think it was) daisy chains, but does it apply as well to other
> makes? A5 daisies, for instance, are supposedly rated to 3000 pounds
> overall, something like 300 pounds for each pocket (source: John
> Middendorf in an aid class I took at City Rock). I'm not sure what
> the numbers are for Fish daisies. (FISH Note: Similar numbers)
Quote:Re: Belay anchors: why not use daisy chains?
Author: Chris Harmston
Email: chrish@bdel.com
Date: 1997/12/16
Forums: rec.climbing
Daisy's are weaker than runners because, as the pockets rip out, damage to
the webbing occurs at the pocket tacks. In static testing the pockets rip
out until you are in the standard runner configuration. The web breaks at
the damaged area of one of the pocket tacks.
In factor 2 falls with 185 lbs of steel I have seen some break outright
without popping all the pockets! I have also seen them hold factor
2 falls and pop all pockets. Dynamic loading is not the same as the
slow pull we use for batch testing and rating. Runner materials do not
stretch like your ropes does. Use your rope for your primary anchor and
use the daisy as a backup and as the adjustability. I have heard reports
of daisy's breaking in factor 2 aid falls. The samples I have seen that
broke in the field were fairly well worn. Daisy's get worn quite quickly
and their strength degrades accordingly. Use your rope as the primary
anchor!
Chris Harmston (chrish@bdel.com).
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer BS, ME.
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Jerome Stiller wrote:
> Isn't a daisy chain essentially a long sewn sling with a series of
> "pockets" sewn in? If the long sling is sewn with the same length of
> overlap and number & density of bar tacks as a regular sling, wouldn't
> it be just as strong? If the "overall" length is just as strong, then
> wouldn't being clipped into a "pocket' be an advantage in holding a long
> fall, because the pocket and then subsequent pockets would rip, thus
> absorbing force before it came on to the "overall" length of the sling?
> If in fact my first supposition is correct (that the "overall" sling
> from which a daisy chain is made is as strong as a comparable length
> standard runner) then the only problem I would see in long fall against
> a daisy chain in an anchor system is the shock loading of each pocket as
> the one before it rips, and the eventual shock loading of the sling if
> and when all the pockets rip.
> or am I stoopid? (well, *of course* I'm stoopid in general - I do climb
> ice, ya know - but I mean specifically about this).
> Jerome
"Use your rope as the primary anchor!" - Chris Harmston
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shortfatoldguy
Dec 15, 2002, 5:20 PM
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>Use your rope for your primary anchor
>and use the daisy as a backup and as the
>adjustability.
This is precisely the setup I described in both posts: "...plus a clove hitch on the rope"; "I use it--as I think most people do--as one of two points of attachment to the anchor." (I'm speaking of multipitch trad climbing, here, where fast and adjustable points of attachment are important.)
I never use a daisy alone. That is to say, I never use a daisy alone.
I suppose it might be marginally safer to use a figure-eight on the rope plus a standard runner. But that setup would be marginally less adjustable and convenient.
But is there something dangerous, that I'm just not understanding, about tying in with a clove hitch on the rope *and* a daisy?
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shortfatoldguy
Dec 15, 2002, 9:06 PM
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Oh, I can't resist...
>If the loop was to fail you would shock load
>the anchor
Ever hear of a Yates Screamer? (They were around when I was climbing in the '70s and early '80s; I imagine they're still available.) Look at one, and then look at a daisy. Repeat as necessary.
>static shock load
I think this is a contradiction in terms.
But I guess I respond negatively to phrases like "plain stupid." Especially when they're used by people who don't actually read the posts to which they imagine that they're responding.
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beckerw
Dec 16, 2002, 12:37 AM
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what is a daisy fall? and where do you attach your daisy to? a seperate piece of gear?
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shortfatoldguy
Dec 16, 2002, 4:57 AM
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>what is a daisy fall?
You know: he loves me, he loves me not...
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bigwallgumbie
Dec 16, 2002, 6:10 AM
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I always stick the end of my dongle into the shut and then think of pictures of lipstick wearing provocatively posed underaged female climbers to make the attachment secure. Only do this with cold shuts, the sharp edges on bolt hangers can cause a wound which could cause serious blood loss. Never use biners to attach to the anchor while untieing as they could become entangled with your dongle.
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mountainmonkey
Dec 16, 2002, 4:50 PM
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Dear shortfatoldguy,
Quote:Ever hear of a Yates Screamer? (They were around when I was climbing in the '70s and early '80s; I imagine they're still available.) Look at one, and then look at a daisy. Repeat as necessary.
Yes. I have a screamer and daisy chains. I have also fallen on a screamer. Screamers are MADE to rip the bartacks - daisy chains are not made to rip. Look closely are the style of the bartacks and you will see the big difference. If you actually read the quote from the BD Quality Assurance Manage you will see that in daisy chain tests, sometimes the bartack would rip and sometimes the webbing would break. "In factor 2 falls with 185 lbs of steel I have seen some break outright without popping all the pockets! I have also seen them hold factor 2 falls and pop all pockets." That is the difference - unpredictablility.
Quote:>static shock load
I think this is a contradiction in terms.
I should have said 'shock load onto a fully static piece' (not by the rope which is dynamic). You need a dynamic tie in. Not just for factor two anchor falls but also if you are yanked up in a fall and quickly dropped, you will shock load the anchor (like a daisy fall).
"Daisy's are weaker than runners..." - Chris Harmston. Why again would you want to use that a even part of an anchor system? Even if it is backed up by the rope, would you want to deal with the consequences if it fails.
Have you ever found a reccomendation to use the daisy as any part of the belay anchor? If so, I would like to read about it.
Use your rope as the tie in to the anchor point.
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shortfatoldguy
Dec 16, 2002, 5:09 PM
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Dear Monkey,
>Use your rope as the tie in to the anchor
>point.
I *do*, as I said. Thanks for your concern, though. I know we're all just trying to keep ourselves and each other alive.
>Have you ever found a reccomendation to use
>the daisy as any part of the belay anchor?
>If so, I would like to read about it.
Your wish is my command. From your post:
>Use your rope for your primary anchor
>and use the daisy as a backup and as the
>adjustability. ---Chris Harmston, BD
And, darnit, this is exactly what I do.
Wrt the difference between a daisy and a Screamer, yes, your point is well-taken that a Screamer is meant to rip and a daisy is not. What I meant to suggest before was merely that if you pop a couple of bartack points on a daisy, that will absorb some energy that would have otherwise been absorbed elsewhere. And since we're in total agreement that the climbing rope should be one's primary connection to the anchor, we've got no problems with the daisy blowing and shockloading the anchor.
Hugs and kisses,
shortfatoldguy
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redpoint73
Dec 16, 2002, 5:14 PM
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You shouldn't be putting a factor 2 force on a runner OR a daisy chain. Rule of thumb, don't climb above the anchor. If you follow this, a factor 2 fall is impossible.
Tying in with the rope is great. But there are situations where this will eat up too much rope. Such if the leader acidently climbs past the next intended belay spot. I know it is usually not much rope, but once in a while, even a couple feet will make a big difference and prevent some weird simul-climbing situation.
Also, if you are climbing in a party of 3, it is logistically difficult to all stay tied in ALL the time. So clipping in with a daisy or runner is sometimes preferable. Many times, we are climbing on a moderate route with BIG tree-covered ledges. So the static-dynamic arguments are less of an issue (but still valid). Just don't climb above the anchor point.
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redpoint73
Dec 16, 2002, 5:29 PM
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"The individual loops are rated for body weight. That's why you *always* leave it clipped through the very end, no matter what loop you're clipping through, in addition (so it's the equivalent of a long full-strength runner). I use it--as I think most people do--as one of two points of attachment to the anchor. "
This is nonsense. Think about it. You will stay clipped into the "full" loop if you are clipped to one pocket, and the pockets break, regardless of whether you clip the "end" or not. And the daisy will be shock loaded the same amount.
But you must NEVER clip TWO pockets with the same biner. If you do this, and the bartack breaks, the biner will no longer be clipped!!!
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shortfatoldguy
Dec 16, 2002, 5:32 PM
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>Rule of thumb, don't climb above
>the anchor.
But doesn't that limit you to one-pitch climbs?
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redpoint73
Dec 16, 2002, 5:34 PM
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HA!
You're right. I was not clear. Don't climb above the anchor while still clipped in with your daisy/runner.
You goofball!
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