Climbers have been known to leave multiple cams on trad routes when they bail, which can be quite costly as well. IMO, its the price you pay for hopping on something above your level, and as others have pointed out, usually the number of bail biners you leave will equal out to the number that you find, so it works itself out usually. If you are on the wrong end of that then maybe you should think about what you are doing beyond your own aspirations. Remember that everyone shares the rock and you should do everything in your power to not inconvenience the next climber on the route.

You don't think the trad climbers would have left a 2' sling if there was a horn nearby? I can tell you know what you're talking about.

Seriously, all this is relative. We in the more affluent countries shouldn't give a damn about leaving a $4 carabiner, but that should and does change as income lowers. Is that really hard to understand? Sounds like the locals in Mexico have more trouble working to save up for a carabiner than removing quicklinks that someone left behind. Plus it might be a dry climate where the things don't rust shut. Open your mind... Do I leave quicklinks? No. Does that mean that no one should leave quicklinks? No. It depends, just like so much else in life....

Josh

He said he just found 2 biners on a route. Climbers etiquette is to reuse bail biners as such. If he were to do that, and subsequently the climbers who retrieved them did the same, eventually there would be enough bail biners in circulation for the area, right?

we cant get $5 biners where i live.... the cheapest one is more than twice that price... when they are available...

how bout the internet? they sell cheap biners all over the place.
I have to admit most of my designated bail biners are old, grooved, retired biners or bootied biners.
But i do have some old ovals that I used to use for racking that are now designated as bail gear. If you come across something ive bailed off and find an oval, consider it yours.

i have used a stick clip for the first or second hanger, but i had never thought about bringing one up to the 10th hanger.....

how bout the internet? they sell cheap biners all over the place.

yes i said i found 2 biners on a route. but i also said those were left there by non locals... how do i know?? because i saw them leaving them, in fact i was talking to the belayer while they left them there... but it was too late for us to climb that route to retireve them and give them back to their owners... we were camping there, but they were leaving that night... so next day we retireved them...where they came from, its common practice to leave biners... where i climb, noone leaves them... we even remember the incident of the free biners with a little laughter, since its something many of us had never seen... $20 USD just hanging there on the rock, when they could have easily bailed with $2 and noone would even care....

n00b!

yes, i am definitely one.. i dont know if i got lost in translation (english is not my first language, as you can tell) but when i hear "stick clip" i think about the procedure where the begining in the route is hard, so you clip the draw and the rope without leaving the ground, using a long stick.... so when someone mentioned you could stick clip to avoid having to bail, i thought about hanging on the last quickdraw, and then stick clipping the next, and for that you would need to pull the stick all the way up the route... im not sure thats what you meant though...

so, could you enlighten me?? and im serious about it... thanx

It sounds like the practice of leaving a bail biner in the US is good to you when Americans come down to visit . I doubt that the people who left biners have any hard feelings about you adding them to your own gear.

I think you got it. Go in direct to the bolt you're hanging on, have the stick clip handed up/haul the stick clip up, clip the next bolt.

No man left behind!

yes, i am definitely one.. i dont know if i got lost in translation (english is not my first language, as you can tell) but when i hear "stick clip" i think about the procedure where the begining of the route is hard, so you clip the draw and the rope without leaving the ground, using a long stick.... so when someone mentioned you could stick clip to avoid having to bail, i thought about hanging on the last quickdraw, and then stick clipping the next, and for that you would need to pull the stick all the way up the route... im not sure thats what you meant though...

so, could you enlighten me?? and im serious about it... thanx

You've pretty much got the idea. Bring your stickclip up the route with you. When you get to the unpassable section, go in direct to the highest bolt you can get to. Pull up some slack and stickclip the next bolt. Climb or batman your way up to it. Repeat as necessary.

well, i think you need a telescopic/retractile pole for that... we use any tree limb or branch we can find at the base of the wall, so climbing with it is not an option... besides, we are such a small climbing comunity, that we know almost every climber in the area... so for example, 2 weeks ago i picked up a quicklink at a route, and within 3 days i knew who had left it there... so now, besides giving him the beta for the section he couldnt pass, i can make fun of him... the opposite has algo happened, when someone picks a quicklink i left and they make fun of me... all in a good way though....

Yes, we use collapsible poles for stick clips. Painter's poles seem the most popular, followed by poles from golf ball retrievers.

You don't have to climb with the stick. As has been mentioned, you can clip in direct to the bolt you're stuck at and lower a loop of rope down to your belayer. He attaches the stick clip to the rope. You haul it up and stick clip the next bolt. The procedure can be repeated until the anchors can be clipped, allowing you to work the route on top rope.

Jay

thanx. i had figured out that much, but as i mentioned, we dont use collapsible poles...

i guess it depends on where you climb and what the local practice is. where I live/climb (Mexico), its standard practice to bail using a quicklink... in fact you can see at least 1 quicklink in almost every harness... as they said, sometimes quicklinks rust closed, making them very hard to remove.. so, why do we use them instead of biners?? well, because we can get quicklinks rated at 800 kilos for $1 dollar, and the cheapest biner we can get locally is about $11 dollars.... so no one purchases leaver biners.. in fact we dont purchase quicklinks either, we pick them up from the routes where other people bail, just to go and leave them at harder routes... only once i have seen a climber abandon a route leaving 2 biners, one on the last bolt and one on the bolt under that one.... guess what route we climbed the next day....

well, i think you need a telescopic/retractile pole for that... we use any tree limb or branch we can find at the base of the wall, so climbing with it is not an option... besides, we are such a small climbing comunity, that we know almost every climber in the area... so for example, 2 weeks ago i picked up a quicklink at a route, and within 3 days i knew who had left it there... so now, besides giving him the beta for the section he couldnt pass, i can make fun of him... the opposite has algo happened, when someone picks a quicklink i left and they make fun of me... all in a good way though....

You say that like it's against your religion. Perhaps you should consider it.

Jay

Nobody leaves new biners. If a few people left bail biners you would have a collection of those instead of quicklinks (which is an incredible misnomer when compared to a biner). I have a bunch of bootied and retired biners that I keep for this very purpose.

It's a bad practice based on a poor excuse.

hahaha. well, what i meant is that there are only a couple of routes that need a stick clip, so we really have no need for one... on the rare event someone wants to try that route, we find a stick and use it.... we have only 2 climbing zones within 1 hour of the city, with 50 routes total for both zones.... so we know all of them... if we didnt, maybe it would be a good idea to have a retractable pole always with us, in case we need it. but since we know what to expect on every route, we carry only the equipment needed.... however i think it would be nice to have one of those poles, so we can clip the next hanger instead of bailing and at least try the moves in top rope....

well, its a matter of customs.... i know people in the US leaves biners, thats not new to me. but if one of you comes here and leaves a biner, you would be getting some weird looks from the locals who are used to leaving/picking quicklinks... so i dont understand why you say its a bad practice when everybody in my area does it and is happy with it, for the reasons previously mentioned.... its like the rappel/lower off thing i guess... we prefer to rappel, and encourage everyone to rappel. but if you in certain area like to lower off, then when we are there, we will be lowered.... not wrong, just different... we havent had any problems by leaving quicklinks, so why would we start leaving biners that cost like 10 times as much and serve the same purpose?? im sure i would have a really hard time trying to convince the locals... and leaving biners while picking quicklinks doesnt seems like a good idea either..