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dirtineye
May 11, 2006, 4:54 AM
Post #51 of 63
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In reply to: I simply object to the notion that anything done before 1985 can be led safely by a new leader on all nuts. GO
This is so wrong it is laughable.
EDIT: GO pointed out that I misread his post, and he is right. I took his anything as everything, which is a horrendous logical error on my part. I plead stupidity, and being under the influence of serious drugs, including demerol and versed, LOL.
It is however true that SOME climbs can indeed be led safely on all nuts by anyone who has a remote clue about placing nuts, regardless of the year they were done.
I'm leaving my stupid comments as is for penance.
And you thought I thought I was perfect, HA!
/EDIT
You were doing great til then.
Look man, some climbs, and it makes no difference when they were done, are just MADE for nuts, period. These same climbs may not take a cam worth a damn. (now THAT is poetry)
In fact, I can show you a climb where a guy almost died because he tried to go with cams instead of nuts.
I have started FA's where, after screwing with cams for ten minutes, I downclimbed, ditched all the cams, and went back up with nuts and tricams.
Any highly irregular finger crack will go just fine on all nuts. There are a lot of those in the sandstone south.
Placing cams correctly is actually harder to learn that placing nuts correctly.
Nonetheless, a new leader should learn to place ALL the gear in groundschool, under good supervision, before he leads anything.
It is so simple, why do people want to make this complicated???
USE THE BEST PIECE FOR THE PLACEMENT, PERIOD.
BTW, I had a brand spanking new leader, a good southern girl, lead up a climb on nuts and tri-cams once. It was her first lead ever, with a piece every three feet or less. She did great.
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happybob
May 11, 2006, 5:38 AM
Post #52 of 63
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First, I know I'm a fool. I had to teach myself trad climbing because quite frankly, I didn't know anyone who did/had the time teach me. Would have liked a teacher, but had no choice. I figured with a sound sport base, it couldn't be hard.
What worked for me was the whole ground school idea. Took my shiny new rack of C4's, hexes, and stoppers and went to a rock and started throwing the pieces into it. After I thought I had a good placement, I gave it hell trying to make it break free. Some did, some didn't. Did the same thing with anchors. Then I tradded a few boulder problems, and then hit the real stone. Scared the fuck out of me, but after getting a few compliments on gear placements and a little experience I feel quite relaxed climbing.
I still consider myself VERY new to trad climbing, but I'm still here. I still fumble with placements sometimes but I think that is part of the appeal of trad climbing for me.
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dirtineye
May 11, 2006, 5:59 AM
Post #53 of 63
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In reply to: First, I know I'm a fool. I had to teach myself trad climbing because quite frankly, I didn't know anyone who did/had the time teach me. Would have liked a teacher, but had no choice. I figured with a sound sport base, it couldn't be hard. What worked for me was the whole ground school idea. Took my shiny new rack of C4's, hexes, and stoppers and went to a rock and started throwing the pieces into it. After I thought I had a good placement, I gave it hell trying to make it break free. Some did, some didn't. Did the same thing with anchors. Then I tradded a few boulder problems, and then hit the real stone. Scared the f--- out of me, but after getting a few compliments on gear placements and a little experience I feel quite relaxed climbing. I still consider myself VERY new to trad climbing, but I'm still here. I still fumble with placements sometimes but I think that is part of the appeal of trad climbing for me.
Very good Happybob.
I forgive you for ever sport climbing.
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sketch
May 12, 2006, 6:11 PM
Post #54 of 63
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I agree with dirtineye, reading everything you can get your hands on is a great way to learn. Mountaineering Freedom of the Hills is good. I would also HIGHLY recommend John Long's Climbing Anchors.
As healyje said, downclimbing is an excellent skill to have - it will get you out of a lot of jams.
I agree with all others that you should second as many routes as possible behind an experienced leader. You will learn where the leader places gear, what good gear placements look like, how cams are prone to walk, and all sorts of other stuff. Plus, it's just plain fun.
The bottom line is that there is SO much to learn about trad climbing. Sometimes, moving a cam 1/4 inch can mean the difference between a bomber placement and a sketchy placement. The best way to learn is through experience.
Happybob: I applaud you for your experimental methods and self-learning initiative. I think this is definitely a key component to learning anything. I learned trad completely on my own (mainly by reading books) but I was never really solid at it until some more experienced people took me under their wing. Wouldn't recommend trying to learn all on your own. There's so much that the books won't tell you. Have fun and climb safe.
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happybob
May 13, 2006, 7:53 AM
Post #55 of 63
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In reply to: Very good Happybob. I forgive you for ever sport climbing.
I'm sorry buddy, I still mostly sport because I have to drive an hour to get some trad in... I also boulder, which I think is banned to speak of on this sight? In fact, I credit bouldering with my latest skill spurt...
But when all is said and done, I would rather throw in the cams and stoppers any day... In the fall I should be up in SLC and I'm going to be a mostly trad man if I can help it, if only because I will be less likely to run into a crowd fighting for a good line.
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sixleggedinsect
May 15, 2006, 6:12 AM
Post #56 of 63
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In reply to: I'm in a Uni. club and alot of the club consists of begginers, many of whom have or will soon be going on their first trad leads. I was wondering what some things are that you teach and stress in order to incease their understanding and safety within trad climbing?
up front: an apology. i didnt read the five pages of responses. sorry. here are my thoughts, from years of teaching beginners, many of the originals in a university club.
first, ultimate skill is belaying. but assuming they got that dialed, then you want to teach them to lead? first- placing good pro is everything. everything! dont bother with the 'placing pro on toprope' thing. why spend all that time dealing with climbing when all you want to do is practise placing pro?
have them place pro on the ground. in holes and cracks at the base of the cliff. and then look at them and tell them what they could have done better, becuase they *always* could have done better. placing gear on toprope is an inefficient way to get a lot of gear placements in, and you cant stand side by side with them and show them why their gear is bogus.
building anchors: move to new england, where all anchors are trees. if thats not an option, and you want to teach building multipitch hanging gear belays, then teach them the cordelette, emphasize the necessity of bomber gear, tell them to place tons extra if in any doubt, describe the limitations of the cordellete, and send them a link to a john long book on amazon..
passive vs active pro.. im a fan of the 'learning on passive' school. if you can place great passive pro, then you can place great passive *and* active pro. and the passive pro is cheaper. and can be safer. and is easier to evaluate for the dundering nincompoop.
In reply to: Also, what are some of the hurdles you find begginers have to over come in trad climbing, such as learning to trust your placements?
who cares if they dont trust their placements? the problem with new leaders is '*are* they safe'. not 'do they *think* they're safe'.
i think the biggest hurdle is placing good gear. and not just good gear, the best gear that could go in in a certain spot. when they can do that, you can deal with things like lead head issues and whatnot.
i also think it is vital that new climbers who want to be independant climbers know basic skills like tying off a belay and using a prussik knot. these two tiny little trad snippets open up whole realms of self-rescue options.
the fastest way i've ever found to get a new climber up to trad-leading, where there is no easy gear-placing-on-the-ground circuit: find a short route you could place pro on every foot (that isnt at the creek). set up a toprope, give them a double rack, and have them place the entire thing on the climb. then tie off the middle of the rope at the top, and rappel together, examining each piece of gear on the way down. a couple pitches of this, and they are trad leaders.
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alpinemorg
May 18, 2006, 4:59 PM
Post #57 of 63
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Didn't read past the first page of responses but here is my first 2 cents. First of all, a lot of mental preparation/groundwork needs to be layed down from an experienced and mature leader (note: do not substitute for large ego!). Folks need to have a fair amount of climbing under there belt first in order to know their abilities, moves, feel of the rock etc.; but also then have discussed with them that trad falls are not equivalent to TR OR sport falls.
Next, practice practice practice placing gear on the ground, with discussions of the hows and whys. Place pro, build anchors and have them all inspected and critiqued. Next graduate to practicing on low 'traversy' settings, or hang a single line that can be assended as a back-up and 'aid' climb some routes to see what holds and what doesn't. Moving on the cleaning for a trad leader and mock-leads to place gear while on a loose belay.
Finally, i think it's important to ask yourself honestly who will be instructing these new folks in your program, and setting down specifically what and how you want to give the instruction and skills so that there is continuity.
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alpinemorg
May 18, 2006, 5:00 PM
Post #58 of 63
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Didn't read past the first page of responses but here is my first 2 cents. First of all, a lot of mental preparation/groundwork needs to be layed down from an experienced and mature leader (note: do not substitute for large ego!). Folks need to have a fair amount of climbing under there belt first in order to know their abilities, moves, feel of the rock etc.; but also then have discussed with them that trad falls are not equivalent to TR OR sport falls.
Next, practice practice practice placing gear on the ground, with discussions of the hows and whys. Place pro, build anchors and have them all inspected and critiqued. Next graduate to practicing on low 'traversy' settings, or hang a single line that can be assended as a back-up and 'aid' climb some routes to see what holds and what doesn't. Moving on the cleaning for a trad leader and mock-leads to place gear while on a loose belay.
Finally, i think it's important to ask yourself honestly who will be instructing these new folks in your program, and setting down specifically what and how you want to give the instruction and skills so that there is continuity.
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pwhitford
May 24, 2006, 8:08 PM
Post #59 of 63
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This may be mentioned before, but I didn't see it.
Ask them if they would be comfortable free soloing the route they are about to lead. Since they are likely to place some garbage(I did), they should know that hanging on the gear is not an option. This emphasizes the possible danger with trad, and mentally prepares them for that risk.
Make sure they place a multidirectional piece first(cam, opposed nuts...) to prevent a zipper effect. I see many people not doing this, both new and experienced. Not sure why. It's covered in FOTH, and I haven't heard a good argument why not to do so, except that the rock doesn't afford the right gear.
Also, remind them to inspect their gear before leading. I had a #2 camalot snag on a bush while on the approach to my first lead. I didn't notice the trigger wire had been nearly dislodged. 3/4 up my first lead, I went to place that cam, and the cam wouldn't contract. I couldn't get anything else to fit, so I just had to run it out the anchor.
Paul
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dingus
May 24, 2006, 10:36 PM
Post #60 of 63
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OK, I can see I'm needed here...
For the old mentor situation these bits of advice all work at various times. Ihave always been of the opinion that you don't teach a friend to lead unless she really, REALLY shows the initiatibe on her own to pursue it. That initiative is EVERYTHING, imo. Those who lack it won't have the same chances of actually sticking with it.
But the OP was talking about a group setting, like Dave Roberts old climbing club thing. Those boys knocked off some of the biggest climbs in Alaska in their day. They too had to guage the level of commitment of their pleebs.
In a group setting I think you have to go martial. stand em in formation, drill the fuck out of them in unison. Will this produce good leaders?
Hellno! It will simply serve to weed out the less committed. Only a true novice would be prepared to put up with a military climbing school.
For starters, day 1 you gotta give em the speech. What is the speech? I have no idea. You have to make that part up. But I know the very first word of your speech... its the same first word for opening all new topics as you proceed. In your best drill sargent voice,
PLEEBS!
Make them suffer in their lowly position. Most will quit, which is job one with a large group of ignorant noobs.
Seriously!
Sorta.
DMT
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eastvillage
May 24, 2006, 10:47 PM
Post #61 of 63
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Posts: 262
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After they have seconded a bunch and placed lots of gear on the ground they need to just LEAD, REALLY INCREDIBLY EASY CLIMBS, LIKE 5.1 FOR STARTERS.
No BS top rope-mock lead crap, no inspection from a rap, no permission from mom or dad or or an instructor, just actual climbing.
Just like real climbers do.
Oh yeah, it might be scary and it is definety dangerous, especially if they insist on rapping down after the climb. Death could result.
And tell them to have fun.
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dangler1
Jun 20, 2006, 4:06 AM
Post #62 of 63
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The only advice that I have to offer is this. When you show them how to do something be sure to explain to them why it's done that way. For example, explain the SERENE principle when teaching them how to build and anchor.
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nutstuffer
Oct 16, 2006, 4:02 AM
Post #63 of 63
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Posts: 49
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knew a guy who was a noobie climber on a 5.4 who leaned back on a bogus nut and bounced down the ledges to the deck. Earned himself a flight for life ride. was lucky, just a few broken bones, I understand bouncing down the ledges checked the speed of his fall.
noobie leaders try not to fall
if you stay at it long enough you may figure out what you a doing
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