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kman
Jan 3, 2005, 7:49 PM
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In reply to: I know lots of people who learned how to mock lead in preparation to becoming leaders, and I know lots of real leaders. But I don't know any mock-leaders who became real leaders.
:?: Is a mock leader who is now really leading not a real leader? :P
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cracklover
Jan 3, 2005, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: If you take any outdoor leading classes this is how you will learn. Your instructor can then check your placements & advise on how to make them better if needed. You will also be asked to take falls on your gear. Its amazing what you can learn when test your gear this way. Took my lead class 8 years ago from ASI at Donner Summit, 3 day class, the best class I ever took. Many gyms offer classes like this also, but without the exposure things just aren't the same.
I took a lead climbing class when I was first learning to lead. Once the instructor was convinced that I could place the gear, and that I truly understood the other principles involved, I got on the sharp end. For real. No mocking.
Before you go off on the qualifications of my instructor, not only is he AMGA certified, but he is one of those who gives the AMGA certification tests.
So after your mock leads - you went on to real leads - and you've been leading ever since? Had you done any real leading before taking that class?
GO
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melodicllama
Jan 3, 2005, 7:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: oh really? well isnt it convenient that you deleted your original post. as for making an ass of myself...im obviously nothing compared to the master... Again, what are you drunk? My original post is still right where I left it, it's the second post of the thread... obviously there's a new master
i used to have the filter off but when they redid the profile editing it reset. whats funny is it filtered all of your posts. good work being unnecessarily belligerent. your approval ratings are lower than Bush's!
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dirtineye
Jan 3, 2005, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: anyway...i havent done much(any :wink: ) trad, but i have mock led and i found the experience to be valuable. it allows you to practice placements without any personal risk, as some people have mentioned. Why not do this safely on the ground? GO
IT's hard to try a ten foot fall on a piece placed while standing on the ground.
On the other hand, to just GRAB SOM TRAD GEAR AND TRY TO LEAD, MOCK OR FOR REAL, IS A BAD IDEA, and one I think we almost all will agree on as bad..
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melodicllama
Jan 3, 2005, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: anyway...i havent done much(any :wink: ) trad, but i have mock led and i found the experience to be valuable. it allows you to practice placements without any personal risk, as some people have mentioned. Why not do this safely on the ground? GO IT's hard to try a ten foot fall on a piece placed while standing on the ground. On the other hand, to just GRAB SOM TRAD GEAR AND TRY TO LEAD, MOCK OR FOR REAL, IS A BAD IDEA, and one I think we almost all will agree on as bad..
am i missing something? whats the harm in mock? aside from some people thinking it doesnt help...
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dingus
Jan 3, 2005, 8:23 PM
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In reply to: In my experience, I know lots of people who learned how to mock lead in preparation to becoming leaders, and I know lots of real leaders. But I don't know any mock-leaders who became real leaders. My theory is that the mock-leader believes they "should" be able to lead 5.X. That's why they're doing the mock leading in the first place - of course they could solo 5.0 if they wanted, but what fun is that (or so they think)?
I suspect the notion of mock leading attracts those who may not possess the ideal set of characteristics to be leaders to begin with.
In other words, I would not be so hasty in assigning mock leading the fault of their failure to become competent leaders. Many of them maybe didn't have whatever it takes?
I think mock leading is irrelevant mostly. Do it, don't do it. It won't adversely or positively affect your lead head... since it isn't leading. Its top roping while fiddling with pro.
Top roping. That is what mock leading really is. Now all you folks arguing the merits and evils of mock leading can now defend your statements againts the back drop of top roping. Does top roping prepare you for leading?
DMT
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melodicllama
Jan 3, 2005, 8:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In my experience, I know lots of people who learned how to mock lead in preparation to becoming leaders, and I know lots of real leaders. But I don't know any mock-leaders who became real leaders. My theory is that the mock-leader believes they "should" be able to lead 5.X. That's why they're doing the mock leading in the first place - of course they could solo 5.0 if they wanted, but what fun is that (or so they think)? I suspect the notion of mock leading attracts those who may not possess the ideal set of characteristics to be leaders to begin with. In other words, I would not be so hasty in assigning mock leading the fault of their failure to become competent leaders. Many of them maybe didn't have whatever it takes? I think mock leading is irrelevant mostly. Do it, don't do it. It won't adversely or positively affect your lead head... since it isn't leading. Its top roping while fiddling with pro. Top roping. That is what mock leading really is. Now all you folks arguing the merits and evils of mock leading can now defend your statements againts the back drop of top roping. Does top roping prepare you for leading? DMT
no, of course it doesnt. but as you said, it is TR'ing while fiddling with pro. that is the part that can help. seeing what pieces go good where, and to get use to the feel of the pro. admittedly you arent in a position to trust your placements while mock leading, but better to have used pro before than to attempt to lead completely virgin(which seems like suicide to me, but w/e floats your boat i guess).
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cracklover
Jan 3, 2005, 8:39 PM
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In reply to: Hmmm... Gabe, I find this topic particularly interesting coming from you because you and I share a little background in so far as the school(s) where we learned to lead. In fact, MC considers you to be a shining example of his better work and readily threw you in my face after sketching on Thin Air (yes Thin Air and NO I'm not ashamed).
There's no reason why you should be ashamed for sketching out on Thin Air as your first lead. And if MC made fun of you because of it (which I doubt) then shame on him.
In fact, it seems to me that you learned a valuable lesson - one that the other schools do not teach. You learned how it feels to be out on the sharp end, and did so in about as safe a setting as it gets. You learned the seriousness of lead climbing.
There's lots of reasons why you could get sketched. If your gear really is good, but you don't trust it, I'd recommend you do some easy aiding - stuff like Jane at Crow Hill. If your gear is good but it was too strenuous to place at the level of Thin Air I'd recommend you back it off a few notches, and lead something easier (maybe without a big traverse). And lastly, if your gear isn't good, take it back to ground school.
In reply to: As you already know, at least 2 of the "larger" schools near us will never let you out on the sharp end while our "Alma Martyr" sort of forces you right out there on day 1. Compare the size of the 3 schools and it might answer part of the question.
Why do you think that is?
In reply to: Mock leading is something I've considered to help me break into harder grades but I'm too damn lazy to really push myself anyway.
Do you think that would work better than working your way up through the grades?
What do you think you would have taken away from mock-leading Thin Air? Perhaps you would have decided that you were good to go? And then you might have gotten sketched next time you led, while not under the watchful eye of MC. Just something to think about.
GO
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cracklover
Jan 3, 2005, 8:46 PM
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Hi Eric,
I won't make judgements about coddling one's own flesh and blood. Fact is, Zeb's a stronger climber than I'll ever be, so obviously something worked out right.
As for the lead of Thank You Scott, I thought the top half of it was still done on TR?
GO
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cracklover
Jan 3, 2005, 8:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I know lots of people who learned how to mock lead in preparation to becoming leaders, and I know lots of real leaders. But I don't know any mock-leaders who became real leaders. :?: Is a mock leader who is now really leading not a real leader? :P
If you're a solid leader, you're a solid leader. If you got that way by mock-leading first, I want to know about it. So far we're at zero (Zeb pinkpointed, not mock-led).
GO
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dingus
Jan 3, 2005, 8:50 PM
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In reply to: but better to have used pro before than to attempt to lead completely virgin(which seems like suicide to me, but w/e floats your boat i guess).
Come on now, you are skewing reality here!
The time honored method was spent following more experienced leaders. Or fiddling with the pro on the ground. Or both. Which has been said in this thread often enough. Its not hard to fathom really.
However more than a few of us did read some 'how to' manual, bought some pro and just went out and did it. But to characterize us as virgins is a mistake.
The self starters among us typically assume greater responsibility for themselves from the git go. We read more. We practice alone in the garage more. We memorize knots from books. We memorize protection systems so we can recreate them in the field. Don't assume a self starter is just a gumb idiot out to kill herself. Most of the time you will be completely mistaken.
Example: I totally, 100% learned to aid climb by reading a how to book and putting it to practice with another self starting fool with no experience on a grade V. We didn't ask anyone if they thought we were ready. We didn't ask if our methods were sound. We didn't seek permission. We made the evaluations ourselves and got safely up and down the cliff.
A lot of walls climbers had similar beginnings. But wall climbers tend to be very motivated self starters in general.
DMT
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olderic
Jan 3, 2005, 8:58 PM
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In reply to: Hi Eric, As for the lead of Thank You Scott, I thought the top half of it was still done on TR? GO
First I believe your sentiment in this thread is right on - Dingus (hate to admit it) summed it up pretty well too. And I think I used up most of my protective parenting genes with Zeb - when it was his sister's (Nika) turn to lead I just handed her the rack (2nd pitch of Classic) and told her to "yell loud when you get to the top because I won't be able to see you anymore". Worked fine (of course I trusted that she had a better self preservation instinct then Zeb).
On Thank You Scott Zeb took the easier left hand escape at the top. He had hit the finishing dyno 3-4 straight times during the headpoint rehersal but I guess he has some self preservation instincts too and decided that the consequences of blowing it were too high.
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dirtineye
Jan 3, 2005, 9:09 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: anyway...i havent done much(any :wink: ) trad, but i have mock led and i found the experience to be valuable. it allows you to practice placements without any personal risk, as some people have mentioned. Why not do this safely on the ground? GO IT's hard to try a ten foot fall on a piece placed while standing on the ground. On the other hand, to just GRAB SOM TRAD GEAR AND TRY TO LEAD, MOCK OR FOR REAL, IS A BAD IDEA, and one I think we almost all will agree on as bad.. am i missing something? whats the harm in mock? aside from some people thinking it doesnt help...
There really isn't any harm in it, but there is no real leading in it either. Leading, quite simply, is climbing above your pro.
Mocke leading is like training wheels on a kid's bike. He's on the bike, he's riding along safely, but when you talke off the training wheels, there is still some adjustment.
I think what some of the anti mock leaders are trying to say is:
You will never get the sense of leading above your pro when you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the top rope will save your butt if you screw up.
Leading is about having the skill and strength to make placements, and the judgement to 'know' if your placement is good enough to hold a fall, and then proceed accordingly. Personal risk the leaders asssessment of that risk, and how he deals with it is a large part of leading.
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cyanamid
Jan 3, 2005, 9:15 PM
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I'm afraid I've "Mock Lead" :oops: For me, it was a waste of time. We'd just finished a route that shared anchors with it, So I TR'd it placing gear as I went up. I can honestly say that I've learned significantly more by following a good, experienced leader than I think I could ever get by pretending on top rope. I did however have a good learning experience "Mock Aiding" a short crack on top rope. It allowed me to weight and bounce on a bunch of gear, helped me get a better feel for which placements would take a fall, and which would pop. It also allowed me a lot of time to fiddle with placements, something a fledgling trad leader doesn't always feel like they have.
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edge
Jan 3, 2005, 9:20 PM
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In reply to: The time honored method was spent following more experienced leaders. Or fiddling with the pro on the ground. Or both. Which has been said in this thread often enough. Its not hard to fathom really. However more than a few of us did read some 'how to' manual, bought some pro and just went out and did it. But to characterize us as virgins is a mistake. The self starters among us typically assume greater responsibility for themselves from the git go. We read more. We practice alone in the garage more. We memorize knots from books. We memorize protection systems so we can recreate them in the field. Don't assume a self starter is just a gumb idiot out to kill herself. Most of the time you will be completely mistaken. Example: I totally, 100% learned to aid climb by reading a how to book and putting it to practice with another self starting fool with no experience on a grade V. We didn't ask anyone if they thought we were ready. We didn't ask if our methods were sound. We didn't seek permission. We made the evaluations ourselves and got safely up and down the cliff. A lot of walls climbers had similar beginnings. But wall climbers tend to be very motivated self starters in general. DMT
As always, well said Dingus. That was also my personal approach and experience to a tee.
Us old dogs like dingus, olderic, and myself are often amazed that we lived through the early years. Those like us who were not amazed, most likely did not make it through the early years.
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cracklover
Jan 3, 2005, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In my experience, I know lots of people who learned how to mock lead in preparation to becoming leaders, and I know lots of real leaders. But I don't know any mock-leaders who became real leaders. My theory is that the mock-leader believes they "should" be able to lead 5.X. That's why they're doing the mock leading in the first place - of course they could solo 5.0 if they wanted, but what fun is that (or so they think)? I suspect the notion of mock leading attracts those who may not possess the ideal set of characteristics to be leaders to begin with. In other words, I would not be so hasty in assigning mock leading the fault of their failure to become competent leaders. Many of them maybe didn't have whatever it takes?
I agree with this point. In fact, I once agreed to help a climber I know do her first mock lead. She learned one thing that day, that she wasn't ready to lead yet.
In reply to: I think mock leading is irrelevant mostly. Do it, don't do it. It won't adversely or positively affect your lead head... since it isn't leading. Its top roping while fiddling with pro.
Here's where I disagree. That is to say, I agree with you that it's toproping, but I don't think the guides put it like that to their paying clients. I've talked to several people who believe that they're solid leaders - who, in fact, will say flat out that they are more competent as leaders after taking a two-day mock-leading class than someone who worked their way up through the grades, because they did X mock-leads, with the instructor climbing along side them, giving them tips every step of the way. They claim that they were able to learn much more than the leader who had to figure everything out the hard way. Yet for some reason, they're reluctant to actually get on the sharp end, and when they do, there are problems. Why? Because they did indeed learn a lot. Maybe more than the person who has taught himself to lead. But one thing they didn't learn is what they themselves are really capable of, without being coddled. In fact, I believe they were misled. They were sold a false bill of goods. They were made to believe that they were ready to bite off more than they could actually chew. And then the real world of leading let them down.
How many guides would take someone through a whole weekend of mock-leading and then tell their clients "Okay then, good job everyone - off you go - you're top-ropers now!" The clients would be like "Huh? I though we were learning to lead?"
In reply to: Top roping. That is what mock leading really is. Now all you folks arguing the merits and evils of mock leading can now defend your statements againts the back drop of top roping. Does top roping prepare you for leading? DMT
As long as you realize what you're doing, and what you're not doing, then yeah, it does. It teaches you plenty about the physical aspect of climbing, which is half the battle. And as Robbovious pointed out, setting TR anchors is a fine test for setting multi-pitch anchors, and for placing gear in general.
When I started leading, it was with a strong body, a humble mind, and an alert head. I had read all about it, practiced placing gear on the ground for hours (literally), and planned to take a class shortly. I had followed perhaps one or two pitches. And I had soloed a little. I treated my first leads as solos while placing gear, with the understanding that the gear would probably catch me anyway. I can assure you, I placed it early and often! I got competent leaders to check my gear, and I felt okay to continue leading because they assured me that it was well placed. I led at an average of six numbers below my TR limit for a season, and then slowly ramped up the grades the next season, and began truly pushing my physical limits on lead in the third season of leading. I also followed lots of good leaders.
To whomever said that taking the sharp end is a steep learning curve, I disagree. I think that if you have good climbs in the 5.0 to 5.7 range that can be led, it can be as slow a learning curve as you like. In fact, mock-leading is not a way to lengthen the learning curve. Rather, it's used by people who want to shorten it.
GO
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edge
Jan 3, 2005, 9:33 PM
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Oh, and to get to the point; I never personally mock lead anything.
When my daughter was learning to lead for the sake of competing on plastic, I had her mock lead just to dial in the action of clipping the bolt, yarding up rope, and firing it into the draw. Nothing else. It was a safe way to teach her the mechanics of sport climbing, which is what she was doing at the time. We practiced this in the gym maybe six times, and then never again. She went right to leading sport at Rumney after this. She was 12 at the time and led 5.10's.
As for trad, I see no point, but that is because I am an old trad ba$tard at heart and there are not a ton of short routes in NH that are ideal for mock leads. Instead, I had her practice placing pro on the ground, and follow me on endless trad pitches. Her experience with placements came solely from seeing and removing good ones (see how that had to be fiddled with to come out? That's how you fiddle in a good one...) We did this for many years before I cut her loose on her first trad lead this Summer at age 16, and that was something far under her limit, albeit with tricky pro. She did fine.
We both consider her a solid 5.8 trad leader for the time being, and that will ramp up quickly with more gear leads under her belt this coming year. But no, no mock leads for her. I will agree that it has it's place for some people, in other circumstances.
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j_ung
Jan 3, 2005, 9:39 PM
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You're all fools. It's not the method of teaching that counts. It's the teacher. A good one can can impart enough knowledge with or without mock leading.
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blueeyedclimber
Jan 3, 2005, 9:45 PM
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Hey Gabe,
I have done it once early on, before I felt confident in my placements. Did it help? I have no idea. I think the only benefit in it is learning to place and go 'through the motions'. Since then, I have become much more confident leading trad, but that has more to do with my head than my physical ability, which mock leading does not help.
So, mock leading sounds reasonable, but who knows if it really helps. I haven't seen any evidence yet.
Josh
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edge
Jan 3, 2005, 9:52 PM
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In reply to: You're all fools.
On the one hand, I want to give you a trophy icon for this revelation. On the other hand, I want to poo you because I think this includes me.
So I will do nothing, and be content that I'm taller than you.
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cracklover
Jan 3, 2005, 9:56 PM
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In reply to: Hey Gabe, I have done it once early on, before I felt confident in my placements. Did it help? I have no idea. I think the only benefit in it is learning to place and go 'through the motions'. Since then, I have become much more confident leading trad, but that has more to do with my head than my physical ability, which mock leading does not help. So, mock leading sounds reasonable, but who knows if it really helps. I haven't seen any evidence yet. Josh
Josh, I seem to remember that you had a setback early on in your leading career, when you tried to do something too hard, too soon. You fell and hurt your ankle (IIRC). Was that before or after your mock lead?
GO
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melodicllama
Jan 3, 2005, 10:05 PM
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In reply to: But one thing they didn't learn is what they themselves are really capable of, without being coddled. In fact, I believe they were misled.
pun intended? :wink:
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