The U.S. military disputed the findings and said it did not target civilians.

From Reuthers: BAGHDAD - U.S.-led forces, insurgents and criminal gangs have killed nearly 25,000 civilians, police, and army recruits since the war began in March 2003, according to a survey by Iraq Body Count, a U.S.-British non-government group.

In fact I'm unclear why you mention it at all, reno.

The fact that people were killed in bosnia and herzegovina is not related to the deaths in Iraq and does not excuse them. Similarly, the fact that the deaths in bosnia were not stopped by clinton does not excuse our continuing to kill people in iraq.

In fact I'm unclear why you mention it at all, reno.

So do you feel no outrage at 25,000 deaths, thorne? And would you think that 10,000 dead civilians is okay?

I can assure you that neither U.S. Forces, nor Bush personally, have killed 25,000 Iraqis. I'm a career soldier, and most of my friends are currently over there, or have been there, or have been there twice. I'm going in October. All the stories my friends relate to me (besides, yes, the occasional shooting of someone - always with hostile intent) also include dissidents, insurgents and foreign fighters performing executions in towns that don't support them, bombings in markets and other public places and suicide attacks all over the place ... A lot of these attacks are focused on Iraqi civilians and infrastructure. At this stage of the conflict our fires are very discriminating ... it's the non-compliant forces that are doing all of the major damage now.

Also, when an Iraqi civilian picks up an RPG and fires it at my friend, he's no longer a civilian. When his buddy runs out into the street to pick it up from his now defunct friend and tries to reload it, he's also no longer a civilian. The death toll does not account for non-uniformed combatants.

- DB

Actually uberdb, we've covered that already in previous threads: according to Human Rights Watch, Saddam was responsible for between 50,000 and 100,000 iraqi deaths, but that was over a period of 30 years

The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran. Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power"

The death rate is astronomically higher under the current occupation - 25,000 in just 2 years. If we stayed for 30 years, at our current rate of killing we'd slaughter 375,000 civilians.

Where do you get these numbers?

The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq.

according to Human Rights Watch, Saddam was responsible for between 50,000 and 100,000 iraqi deaths, but that was over a period of 30 years.

Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds.