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euthanasia
Feb 13, 2005, 6:09 PM
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Are they rated harder than faces?
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ikefromla
Feb 13, 2005, 6:13 PM
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because for anyone to climb 5.14d on gear is going to be very difficult and committing. it will happen soon enough though.
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slavetogravity
Feb 13, 2005, 6:47 PM
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Recently an incredibly strong and I'm taking STRONG. Spanish team had a crack at repeating Lyn Hills free accent of the Nose on El Cap. Despite these guys ability to climb 5.14d they were unable to free the Great Roof pitch and the Changing corners pitch. Iger Pou (I think that's how you spell his name) Suggested a grade of 5.14c for the changing corners pitch and a grade of similar difficulty for the Great Roof. This was only after they didn't climb it. Had they stuck around and worked those pitches who knows what they would have gon fee at.
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camhead
Feb 13, 2005, 6:58 PM
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what Ike said is true, although not all gear climbs are cracks. In fact, the world's hardest trad climbs that I know of are face climbs (i.e. Huber's Bellevista, with a .14b crux protected by A4 gear).
However, I believe the original poster is thinking of "pure" cracks– ideally, lines that allows jamming, laybacking, and little else for an ascent. The hardest consensus "pure" crack climbs have kind of stagnated around 5.13+ for nearly a decade (Fiddler on the Roof, No Way Jose), but recently, two 5.14a roof cracks have gone up, one in the Italian Alps, and one in Quebec (can't remember the names). I think that both were led on pre-placed gear.
So, yeah, whether or not we worry about a redpoint/pinkpoint argument, the fact remains that there are no hard or even solid 5.14 cracks.
This probably has something to do with the fact that, despite the obvious difficulty of mastering hard crack skills, the techniques are less varied and simpler than those required for hard sport climbing. I have no first hand experience, of course, but I do recall reading that Steve Hong, author of numerous 5.13 crack routes, considered them easier than the sport routes he put up in Rifle.
think of it this way: once you have mastered all of the sizes of cracks, from offwidth to tips, and built up the massive endurance to camp out on each jam and place gear, it is difficult to find something REALLY hard. Despite this, there are some really strong climbers out there who are finding that crack climbing does not have to top out at 5.13+.
I guess that with this in mind, it is possible to see why crack climbing standards would evolve quite a bit more slowly than mainstream sport standards.
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josephgdawson
Feb 13, 2005, 7:13 PM
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There are not any 5.14d cracks because no one has put one up yet.
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slavetogravity
Feb 13, 2005, 7:15 PM
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Don’t forget Ron Kauk’s accent of Magic Line in Yosemite, that’s a “pure crack line” and was graded 5.14b. Dean Potter has also freed a 5.14 crack line in Moab a few years back. He placed all gear on lead with the exception of the very first piece that was pre placed.
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gunksgoer
Feb 13, 2005, 7:31 PM
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i think the main reason there arnt to many hard cracks, is simply, if the crack is good enough to take gear, then its good enough to keep the grade down. the exception would be uber-thin seams and very shallow cracks, but then its a matter of finger size. plus, if the crack is small enough, its not really crack climbing, more like climbing a bunch of vertical crimps. more hard cracks will appear with time, but for now there are just a handfull of 14s.
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slavetogravity
Feb 13, 2005, 7:32 PM
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In reply to: There are not any 5.14d cracks because no one has put one up yet. |
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smearhound
Feb 13, 2005, 7:56 PM
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Slightly OT, but Dean Potter recently ascended "Sasquatch," a 20-foot, 45-degree overhanging crack problem on Yosemite's Le Conte Boulder. The problem is unrated.
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camhead
Feb 13, 2005, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: Don’t forget Ron Kauk’s accent of Magic Line in Yosemite, that’s a “pure crack line” and was graded 5.14b. Dean Potter has also freed a 5.14 crack line in Moab a few years back. He placed all gear on lead with the exception of the very first piece that was pre placed.
I'm pretty sure that Magic Line was led on pre-placed gear. Potter has not put a grade of 5.14 on any of his lines, although his last two, Epitaph and Concepción, both have tentative 5.13+ ratings. These ratings are just assumptions by magazines and internet pseudo-climbers such as ourselves, however; Potter has not rated them.
Also, not to take anything away from Lynn Hill, but it is pretty well-established that her small finger size was key to freeing the Great Roof, as well as key to the pitch's lack of repeats. Just because she has small fingers does not mean that it is 5.14d, especially considering that she has not climbed anything else harder than 5.14a.
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chossmonkey
Feb 13, 2005, 9:03 PM
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In reply to: This probably has something to do with the fact that, despite the obvious difficulty of mastering hard crack skills, the techniques are less varied and simpler than those required for hard sport climbing. I have no first hand experience, of course, but I do recall reading that Steve Hong, author of numerous 5.13 crack routes, considered them easier than the sport routes he put up in Rifle. think of it this way: once you have mastered all of the sizes of cracks, from offwidth to tips, and built up the massive endurance to camp out on each jam and place gear, it is difficult to find something REALLY hard. Despite this, there are some really strong climbers out there who are finding that crack climbing does not have to top out at 5.13+.
That is pretty much the reason.
A crack can only get so small before it needs to be beat out with pins to be climbed free. There just aren't that many cracks that are overhanging, super long, and at a size that is hard to climb but not too small. There may be 5.15 pure cracks waiting to be climbed but for every unclimbed super hard crack there are hundereds if not thousands of just as hard or harder unclimbed faces. Most of the future 5.14 "trad" routes will be face climbs that follow thin seams.
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keinangst
Feb 13, 2005, 9:51 PM
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Anyone seen La Zebrée in Quebec?
It's supposedly a mid-14 pure crack (featured on MoDump.com and Climbing mag late last year), and the FA'ist plans to attempt it again this year without pre-hanging some of the gear. He had to do it that way for logistical simplicity--besides, sport climbers often do the hard stuff with pre-hung draws, so it seems pretty equivalent.
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collegekid
Feb 14, 2005, 12:02 AM
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Crack climbing isn't in the mainstream like sport climbing is, so sponsored climbers aren't as motivated to put up a crack testpiece as they are to put up a hard boulder problem or sport route. However, as has already been said, there are hard cracks out there...they're just not as well known as the hardest boulder/sport routes.
If professional climbers were actively searching San Diego for 5.14+ cracks, they would probably find one. Mt. Woodson is home to numerous 5.11 and 5.12 cracks, i'm sure there's harder stuff to be found.
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rockclimbergabor
Feb 14, 2005, 12:49 AM
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Also, people dont climb cracks for the difficulty like sport climbs, but for fun and daring reasons. I think pre-placing gear on a 5.14a crack is the same as sending a 5.14d sport climb, not just becasue it is a lot harder but because its a lot more scary.
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ikefromla
Feb 14, 2005, 12:51 AM
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In reply to: Crack climbing isn't in the mainstream like sport climbing is, so sponsored climbers aren't as motivated to put up a crack testpiece as they are to put up a hard boulder problem or sport route. |
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chriss
Feb 14, 2005, 1:56 AM
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[quote="chossmonkey]
A crack can only get so small before it needs to be beat out with pins to be climbed free.
Most of the future 5.14 "trad" routes will be face climbs that follow thin seams.
Not trying to start anything, but. I don't believe the first statement. However the second makes sense.
When a crack gets that hard (5.14+) to climb, it makes sense to use other features, ie the rock face. So, are there some .14+ pure cracks? Maybe.
chris
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thegreytradster
Feb 14, 2005, 2:32 AM
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There are plenty of unrepeated hard .12 and .13 cracks out there. That fact by itself speaks volumes.
Won't catch me on any of em' :shock:
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rockprodigy
Feb 14, 2005, 3:53 PM
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I think most of you have covered all the bases. I think if a crack is big enough to get your fingers in, then it just isn't that hard. Theoretically, I can imagine cracks that would be in the 14+ range. For example, many of the hard routes out there have surprisingly short cruxes, what if those crux sections lasted the entire length of the route?
There is a crack in Zion that I'm pretty sure is 5.14, but but probably not 14+. It will be awhile before climbing standards rise to the point where someone who is good enough to climb it is desperate enough to spend the time working it. I'll describe it, and you tell me if it's 5.14:
#.75 camalot-sized splitter crack through a 150 degree (near horizontal) 10' roof. I know it's possible because it's wide enough, but it's going to be crazy hard!!
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rockprodigy
Feb 14, 2005, 3:55 PM
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Furthermore, hand size does matter. There is no way that the Great Roof was 5.14+ for Lynn Hill, if so, it would have taken a lot longer to do it. In crack climbing, you can't just assume a universal rating for everyone. Until someone with big fingers repeats those pitches, they are 13+.
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lambone
Feb 14, 2005, 7:41 PM
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In reply to: Recently an incredibly strong and I'm taking STRONG. Spanish team had a crack at repeating Lyn Hills free accent of the Nose on El Cap. Despite these guys ability to climb 5.14d they were unable to free the Great Roof pitch and the Changing corners pitch. Iger Pou (I think that's how you spell his name) Suggested a grade of 5.14c for the changing corners pitch and a grade of similar difficulty for the Great Roof. This was only after they didn't climb it. Had they stuck around and worked those pitches who knows what they would have gon fee at.
Lynn has very small fingers, any male is at a huge disadvantage. I think she rated those pitches 13d?
There are 14d cracks, they just haven't been climbed yet.
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iamthewallress
Feb 14, 2005, 7:51 PM
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In reply to: Also, not to take anything away from Lynn Hill, but it is pretty well-established that her small finger size was key to freeing the Great Roof, as well as key to the pitch's lack of repeats. Just because she has small fingers does not mean that it is 5.14d, especially considering that she has not climbed anything else harder than 5.14a.
This is so offensive to me that it makes me shudder. Guys have many strength advantages on us, generally, and tend to be taller so perhaps, Lynn Hill should get to upgrade her burlier strength-orient climbs or maybe her reachiest ascents to keep things even?
If you haven't seen the Great Roof or Scott Burke's fingers, I don't think you can dismiss her send as being all about the small fingers. Contrary to what would seem to be popular belief the Great Roof is not really an incipient KB seem. It still takes Aliens pretty much the whole way across.
Whose hardest send does not play to their strengths?
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iamthewallress
Feb 14, 2005, 7:58 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: When a crack gets that hard (5.14+) to climb, it makes sense to use other features, ie the rock face. So, are there some .14+ pure cracks? Maybe. and if you're ascending that line via the face holds, are you crack climbing any longer?
Most cracks that I've climbed have involved using at least some face holds too.
The thinner the crack gets, IMO, the more climbing the crack itself becomes like face climbing.
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curt
Feb 14, 2005, 7:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Also, not to take anything away from Lynn Hill, but it is pretty well-established that her small finger size was key to freeing the Great Roof, as well as key to the pitch's lack of repeats. Just because she has small fingers does not mean that it is 5.14d, especially considering that she has not climbed anything else harder than 5.14a. This is so offensive to me that it makes me shudder. Guys have many strength advantages on us, generally, and tend to be taller so perhaps, Lynn Hill should get to upgrade her burlier strength-orient climbs or maybe her reachiest ascents to keep things even? If you haven't seen the Great Roof or Scott Burke's fingers, I don't think you can dismiss her send as being all about the small fingers. Contrary to what would seem to be popular belief the Great Roof is not really an incipient KB seem. It still takes Aliens pretty much the whole way across. Whose hardest send does not play to their strengths?
Wasn't Scott burke able to follow that pitch free, anyway? If so, that kind-of shoots down the finger size argument. Or, am I mistaken?
Curt
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moonshine505
Feb 14, 2005, 8:20 PM
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I find the pseudo-maunufactured argument more interesting than the finger size / play to your strengths argument, not because I believe one or the other more, but becuase it's essentially true that many hard crack climbs that ascend old pin scars are not ethically different than drilled-out pockets on the sport climbs that so many "trad hardmen" love to rail against.
So, why are there no .14d cracks to being climbed? Because a generation ago people bashed the hell out of them so that they could be aided, resulting in the creation of holds the size they would need to be for free climbing. Hypocrisy is a mother, eh?
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camhead
Feb 14, 2005, 8:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Also, not to take anything away from Lynn Hill, but it is pretty well-established that her small finger size was key to freeing the Great Roof, as well as key to the pitch's lack of repeats. Just because she has small fingers does not mean that it is 5.14d, especially considering that she has not climbed anything else harder than 5.14a. This is so offensive to me that it makes me shudder. Guys have many strength advantages on us, generally, and tend to be taller so perhaps, Lynn Hill should get to upgrade her burlier strength-orient climbs or maybe her reachiest ascents to keep things even? If you haven't seen the Great Roof or Scott Burke's fingers, I don't think you can dismiss her send as being all about the small fingers. Contrary to what would seem to be popular belief the Great Roof is not really an incipient KB seem. It still takes Aliens pretty much the whole way across. Whose hardest send does not play to their strengths?
hehe. you totally missed the point of my statement, but I knew that my comments would make someone jump up and take on this oft-repeated argument.
However, I was responding to slavetogravity, who implied that the Great Roof was a candidate for .14d because of its lack of repeats. This is a faulty way of looking at it, for the reasons that I stated in my comment that "made you shudder" or whatever.
Rockprodigy addressed the same topic in slightly less provocative language:
In reply to: There is no way that the Great Roof was 5.14+ for Lynn Hill, if so, it would have taken a lot longer to do it. In crack climbing, you can't just assume a universal rating for everyone. Until someone with big fingers repeats those pitches, they are 13+. |
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atg200
Feb 14, 2005, 8:41 PM
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In reply to: #.75 camalot-sized splitter crack through a 150 degree (near horizontal) 10' roof. I know it's possible because it's wide enough, but it's going to be crazy hard!!
are you talking about that crack past the headache? i've wondered when that would go free.
you are kidding yourself if you don't think hand/foot size and ratings for crack climbs go hand in hand.
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iclimbtoo
Feb 14, 2005, 9:23 PM
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If I could even DREAM of what it would be like to possibly climb a .14 crack, I would participate in this conversation. But I think people who can are not quite human. I am amazed just reading these posts...I wish I could see it in action...I'd probably wet myself, sh*t my pants, and faint all at the same time.
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chouca
Feb 14, 2005, 9:35 PM
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It has more to do with geology than anything else. If you can barely squeeze your fingers into it, it's usually 5.11 -.12+. If it's also steep, that may bring it up to a mid .13. If it's finger sized, steep AND has tricky jams or odd moves or body positions, it may creep into the 5.14 range.
How many cracks like Asteroid Crack, Acid Crack, Grand Illusion, or Fiddler on the Roof do you see at your local crags? These cracks are aberations. Even Sphinx Crack was manufacured with dynamite, and that is THE perfect thin hard crack, sharp AND slippery at the same time. It's sequences are more like a sport climb than a jamfest. Perhaps the strong youth will follow Sonnie Trotter's lead and put away their pads for awhile and get a rack of RP's put that bouldering skill to good use and produce some 5.14 crack climbs.
Marc B.
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rockprodigy
Feb 14, 2005, 9:51 PM
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In reply to: are you talking about that crack past the headache? i've wondered when that would go free.
Yes. It's called "Masterblaster". I hear Captain Grumpy worked on it for awhile, and possibly some others, but that thing will wait until some truly talented lightweight person (like Dave Graham) tries it. And I doubt someone with his abilities would bother. That's the trouble. We'll have to wait until that type of talent is somewhat commonplace before random stuff like that gets done.
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bvb
Feb 14, 2005, 10:04 PM
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postcount+++
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bvb
Feb 14, 2005, 10:16 PM
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double postcount+++++
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bvb
Feb 14, 2005, 10:17 PM
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In reply to: How many cracks like Asteroid Crack, Acid Crack, Grand Illusion, or Fiddler on the Roof do you see at your local crags?
quite a few, actually. but that's a topic or a different time.
your question is "why are there no 14d cracks?" -- are you assuming there are a bunch of 14c cracks, and folks hacve hit the wall at 14c?
anyway -- there are plenty of established .14 cracks out there, imho. and the potention or many more is there -- my guess is that a perfect, unwavering, inch-and-a-quarter splitter, with no constrictions or wide spots to allow for a rest, through a 20 or 25 foot roof would go well into the .14 range.
another example -- a free climb of the old aid roof above bishop's terrace would be well into the .14 range.
saqsuatch (that new thing on the boulder by the curry) is probably .14. let's see how long it takes for a repeat. it only took 35 years of steady attempts by generations of the world's best crack climbers before someone did it....yeah, it's probably only 13d.
fianlly, there are scads of unrepeated "13+" cracks out there. my guess is if these routes (stingray, no way jose, potters route on the tombstone) ever see a few repeats, they'll get .14 consensus ratings.
:roll:
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angry
Feb 14, 2005, 10:29 PM
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Because 5.14d has never been climbed!!!!, explanation below.
My theory on crack climbing is one of ratings and subjectivity. The YDS was developed and perfected primarily through crack climbing (or at least on routes that require placing gear), sport climbing has used the 7b, 7b+, etc scale for it's mass development. Sport and trad are barely comparable, just as bouldering is barely comparable to either sport or trad (this is most true as climbs get really hard). Lets use that french system for sport, the YDS for trad, and the V system for bouldering. Yes there would be inherent shades of grey, but overall, I think it would be an improvement.
I know of a roof that is probably 25-30 feet long with a perfect green alien size splitter. No-one has ever even tried it. I think cracks can get much harder.
I get so sick and tired of the hand size arguement. I know so many people who use that as such a crutch. If you climb more than one size it will all even out. When I started climbing long cracks I thought #2 friends to be impossible, now they are locker. If you can't do a size, practice.
A few weeks ago I climbed a thin crack (only a mere 12a, not sick like the 14d being discussed), I didn't get my fingers in the whole way, I crimped the crisp edge and tried not to cry. My friend couldn't follow it and blamed it on his hand size, he couldn't get his fingers in either. Unless you are sending roofcracks at the 13+ and up level, the whole finger size arguement is worthless. Practice you jackasses!!!!
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sierrabc
Feb 14, 2005, 10:37 PM
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All I know is that a 5.14d crack would be sick.
Happy Sending!
Sierra 8^)
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petsfed
Feb 14, 2005, 11:35 PM
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In reply to: #.75 camalot-sized splitter crack through a 150 degree (near horizontal) 10' roof. I know it's possible because it's wide enough, but it's going to be crazy hard!!
That'll go. There's a route out at Vedauwoo that needs a repeat that's steeper than that and the same size, its a lowly 11d. .75 camalots are way tight hands and rattly fingers. I've seen worse. Much worse. Like 5 feet of thin finger locks, followed by a 4 foot blank section, then cruiser hands. All overhung by 45 degrees by the way. We're guessing it'll go mid 11 in the hands section, but the start could be a v7/v8 boulder problem by itself. And still, not as bad as Zebree. If you can jam it, its not that bad. That's why we don't see hardly any .14 pure crack lines. Now 5.14 trad lines... that's a whole other story.
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rockprodigy
Feb 16, 2005, 2:01 AM
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There's a HUGE difference between coarse Vedauwoo rock (which is probably flaring, no?) and slick Zion rock with no flare at all. This thing is solid 5.14...I promise. A regular sized person will have to basically campus on ringlocks...f'in A dude!
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rokshoxbkr19
Feb 16, 2005, 3:37 AM
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I am 5'2" and I don't see why people think a hand size/body size argument is reasonable for cracks. It could be said of anything or any type of climbing. It's like saying I didn't run the mile in 4 minutes because my legs aren't long enough. That isn't the case, the fact is that you aren't fast enough. When I can't climb something I don't say it's because I am not tall enough, it's simply because I am not strong enough. Why is it ok to say I can't climb that crack because my hands are too big, but it isn't ok to say I couldn't do that face climb because I wasn't tall enough to reach that hold. I could say that the 5.10 I climbed was really 5.12 because of those intermediates I had to use, but that woudl be bullshit! That is why we have ratings. A 5.12 is 5.12 and so on and so on. No one can climb everything because we all have different strengths and weaknesses. But it is ridiculous to say that something isn't as hard because of someone's body size, if so then we need to have an infinite number of ratings for each person. "I think we should incorporate body fat percentage into a climbs rating. So climbing a 5.10 with 32% body fat is like climbing a 5.14 with 2%"
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hyhuu
Feb 16, 2005, 2:13 PM
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Does anyone know if there is a crack boulder problem graded in the V-double digit? If there is one, I would imagine that 14d crack is a possibility.
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onbelay_osu
Feb 16, 2005, 4:16 PM
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Down at Quartz Mtn. Oklahoma
Anorexia
Difficulty: A3
Protection: Aid
Description: Located on the far right of The Headwall, it actually begins to the right of The Headwall, just to the left of The Hobbit. After some mandatory slabbing, you begin up the overhang, come over the lip, and follow the seam up and underneath the roof to some anchors. It goes clean, so do your best not to scar it any further than it already has been... F.A. Duane Raleigh, Chris Rowins (1979)
it has been sugested that is this was to go free it was be a mid 14...
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petsfed
Feb 16, 2005, 4:22 PM
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In reply to: There's a HUGE difference between coarse Vedauwoo rock (which is probably flaring, no?) and slick Zion rock with no flare at all. This thing is solid 5.14...I promise. A regular sized person will have to basically campus on ringlocks...f'in A dude!
Actually its one of the more splitter cracks I've seen out there. And the rock out at the Roof Ranch (at least the side this thing is on) has pretty compact crystals. And besides, you can still get tenuous foot jams, even in a Zion .75 camalot splitter. It'll go, just maybe not 5.14.
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angry
Feb 16, 2005, 5:02 PM
Post #43 of 47
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Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
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Horizontal .75 camalots. I can't climb them but I can hang the jams and make one move or two. If I can even move, it ain't 14d.
I can't believe I agree with petsfed.
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rockprodigy
Feb 16, 2005, 5:37 PM
Post #44 of 47
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Registered: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 1540
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Well, you two rockstars should go tick it off...it sounds like it would be a warm up for you. I've climbed some hard $hit, and I couldn't do a single move, so have fun.
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bvb
Feb 17, 2005, 1:18 AM
Post #45 of 47
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Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 954
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In reply to: Does anyone know if there is a crack boulder problem graded in the V-double digit? If there is one, I would imagine that 14d crack is a possibility.
sasquatch.
plus a few el obscuro cracks at woodson that have probably never seen repeats.
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bubbahotep
Feb 17, 2005, 2:05 AM
Post #46 of 47
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Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 97
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In reply to: Well, you two rockstars should go tick it off...it sounds like it would be a warm up for you. I've climbed some hard $hit, and I couldn't do a single move, so have fun.
Perfect. :righton:
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socrate
Feb 17, 2005, 3:19 AM
Post #47 of 47
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Registered: Feb 17, 2005
Posts: 19
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sombody asked about the 5.14 crack in quebec. The name is la zebree. Here is a good picture of it. http://outreocean.free.fr/valdavid3.html
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