and am surprised the bolts haven't been chopped...

So no need to start a war here, I just want to hear everybody else's opinion

... That quote from the ethics issue applies here more than most, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

yes, it is the one in the narcissus cave. So it hasn't gone free... you know what would be f---ing sweet!? If somebody would free that f--- using as much gear as possible. And then come back and chop whatever bolts they didn't need...
that would be f---ing sweet.
i wish I were stronger!

It's nice (and surprising) to see that this discussion stayed civilized.
I thought one good comment was that
"Ethics indeed may be local, but what is right or wrong does not change."

I think this is wrong when concerned with an issue that is on the borderline, such as rap bolting or something of that nature. Then local ethics rule. But, when blasting a hole in the rock when there are other options is concerned, in my opinion that is blatently unnecessary and thus local ethics are overruled.

get over yourself!

A wise friend of mine once said "Sport climbers have no imagination."

[youll have to find whoever bolted that thing to find out why he did it. maybe he jsut decided it wasnt worth the bother to bring trad gear on what was already a climb with bolts so he decided to bolt it completely while he had the gear at hand.

and one more point, you dont have to clip them if you dont want to :wink:

Oh, they couldn't be bothered to bring out a trad rack, but could bring out a drill and bolt a crack? This sort of thinking, logic, and ethics you can keep in Slovenia as far as I'm concerned :wink:

Bottom line - anytime a protectable crack gets bolted it means someone is too lazy or too stupid to use a cam and instead has decided to vandalize the rock for the sake of personal convenience. It doesn't matter what type of area it is. It's a crack - have a little self-respect and stick a cam in it, it isn't rocket science...

and, btw, though im a promarily sports climber, i wouldnt bolt a protectable crack. even here :wink:

When you bolt a crack at a sportscrag, you shouldn't consider this a potential trad route ruined. Imagine a big green field in a park i some town. Now, someone puts up two soccer-goal. Should we cry out in anguish:"Oh no! There's a perfect tenniscourt ruined!" ? Of course not, because its just one kind of sport, that got to use the place first. In the same way, should we consider the crags: they are used for two fundamentally different kinds of climbing, and claiming that one is more pure, or original or whatever makes little sense.

I don't consider trad or sport inferior/superior forms of climbing, They are different activities, i do both, and i can't see why anyone should be outraged by ANY bolts in a sports area, just as surely as we should all be outraged by ALL bolts in trad area.

Oh, they couldn't be bothered to bring out a trad rack, but could bring out a drill and bolt a crack? This sort of thinking, logic, and ethics you can keep in Slovenia as far as I'm concerned :wink:

Bottom line - anytime a protectable crack gets bolted it means someone is too lazy or too stupid to use a cam and instead has decided to vandalize the rock for the sake of personal convenience. It doesn't matter what type of area it is. It's a crack - have a little self-respect and stick a cam in it, it isn't rocket science...

I hate rehashing this topic, but the trads just don't get it.

Clearly, adding 16 bolts to the crag by bolting the two crack routes cannot be considered "vandalizing" the crag. I can understand how somebody could consider placing 2000 bolts at a crag to be "vandalization," but adding 16 more bolts to a sport crag is insignificant, and permits 2 additional routes to be climbed without taking an otherwise unnecessary trad rack to a sport crag.

If your lines are indeed protectible with natural gear, then why slap bolts into them just to add 2 more routes to a crag that already has 250?

Why not preserve the routes for those willing to haul the rack up and do them as natural lines?

Case in point, I was in Spokane this weekend and happen to drive by Dishman and got to finally see it, though unfortunately not climb it. A beautiful piece of rock in an suburban setting and I walked the length of it and was pleasantly surprised at the high quality of route after route. The rock is granite and most of the routes are entirely bolted as the rock has few cracks. Every bolt on it was legitimate except two. And those were glaringly inappropriate right next to bombproof easy pro in a deep hand size arching crack (I believe the climb was Klingon). There was absolutely no justification for them beyond not wanting to bother with a couple of cams and that's just lame as is whomever is writing the names of the routes on the rock with a black marker. Both are infantile and completely unnecessary.

Ahh, JT, I'm not going to cut and paste more quotes in order to continue the argument. I'm sure our time could be better spent (although for some reason, studying for finals seems to take the back seat :) ). Of course there still be 252 routes. I guess my implications weren't made clear enough: Leaving the two lines for natural gear protection would be a worthy contribution because of the opportunity to diversify the crag's experience.

I'll reveal my secret: they're not bolted, and in the six or seven years I've been climbing at this crag, I have not seen or heard of a single ascent of either route.

Lots of people who know how to place gear still bolt protectable cracks. Many factors contribute, the main being the type of crag the area is.

It's not because someone put up sport routes that they don't climb trad, they are just smart enough to accept change and have decided to not limit themselves to one disipline.

...smart enough to accept change...

crag. What is clearly "lame" is applying traditional climbing ethics to a sport crag. For the millionth time: sport crags have their own ethics.

I think this is wrong when concerned with an issue that is on the borderline, such as rap bolting or something of that nature. Then local ethics rule. But, when blasting a hole in the rock when there are other options is concerned, in my opinion that is blatently unnecessary and thus local ethics are overruled.

A tragic lack of ethics rooted in the judeo-christian idea of it all being god-given to do with as one pleases.

Every unecessary bolt is simply unecessary blight representing an astonishing level of group denial from folks who simply accept them let alone welcome them...

and then, who gets to decide, case by case, whether a bolt is necessary?

The first ascenionist. It is obviously up to their discretion.

Now that is a new wacko bend on an old issue, I'll give you that! Blame sport climbing on Christians.

Dude, you are smoking the s---!

DMT

Bright enough to figure out a reference linking blatant consumption and consumer behavior with the country's judeo-christian outlook on the environment and resource management in general.

Well, there is absolutely no difference in the consumptive mindset and rationale between this issue of judicious and reasoned use of fixed pro [as a last resort down to each and every miserable bolt] versus grid bolting simply for "convenience" and the issue of selective cutting versus clear cutting in our forests.

Why the hell would we leave some trees when we're taking most of them any way?

Again, how many unnecessary bolts does it take before it becomes objectionable?

When does an area become "sport" and who decides?

When enough people with drills show up? You'd be the first one b---- and moaning if someone decided to retro bolt Valley trade routes - why?

And what about when sport folks demand a piece of the action at your favorite trad crag?

Maybe the elitism is more about protecting my rock and not really giving a rat's ass about "lesser" crags and other people's stone.

When the big red and yellow sign says "Over Twenty Million Bolts Served" it and they just can't be wrong...

Remember the giant statues the Taliban blew straight to hell? Carved from living rock from non-Judeau-Christians.

How about the Great Wall of China? Built by non-Christians, carved from rock.

Ever heard of the Parthenon, the Acropolis? Built from 'living' stone as I recall.

The Pyramids seem to be built o rock too.

All of these things were built of rock, by non Christians, who saw fit to use the rock they found to build things.

I agree. There are forests where we should not clear cut. There are other forests where it is totally appropriate to do so. I will give you an example: old growth redwood forests should not be clear cut for a variety of reasons. Wayerhauser pulp forests of southern Georgia, monolithic stands of tree, tree farms if you will? Totally appropriate to clear cut those.

Your tragic mistake is your inability to distinguish.

To you? None I would suppose. Have you evcer visited one of the tree farm forests of south Georgia? How about the ones in Maine? Have you visited every single forest in the country, to determine if selective cutting is in fact the appropriate logging method? I might ask the same of climbing areas, but I know you haven't, so I won't bother..

Not you, that much is obvious.

We are not talking about retrobolting, sorry. Different subject. See, that would be akin to going back to the selectively cut forest and taking out the trees that were purposely left behind.

Yawn, I really don't care all that much I reckon. There are sport routes in the Valley and the few I have done, I enjoyed them.

Your logic is faulty, your conclusion, bunk.

I can name 10 towns near here that have no Mc Donalds. I can also name 10 climbing areas near here that have no sport routes. Sometimes I want to sit down for a good homecooked meal. Other times I pine for a Big Mac. I like choice in my life and I'll be damned if I will cede that privilege to a reactionary who crys foul over any rap placed bolt, crack or no crack.

DMT

As you usually do when the going gets hard - instantly rachet out to ludicrous extremes in scope, time, and topic. We're talking consumption behaviors in the relatively modern U.S. timeframes. I know it's hard, but try to stick with modern times and our behavior and its possible roots and consequences...

Great answer, glib beyong compare - but want to try and actually answer it or was the question simply too hard...?

Actually, it's the very same subject as many climbs are now being retro bolted by sport climbers to bring them down to their comfort level.

Oh, so then aside from the regs (and given you left out the Valley questions in your liberal cut-n-paste job) you're saying you'd have no problem seeing El Cap trade routes bolted? If not, why - yawn - who would care? No one but climbers would even know...

Could be, if you don't even give a rat's ass about your own local crag. Or maybe it's only the real big stone you care about...? Who knows with that answer...

You may be able to name 10 climbing areas that currently have no sport routes (and bully for you...), and we can assume from your comments you'd have no objection to folks "sporting out" those routes and areas.

but the equivalent dining analogy is don't go around building McDonalds where they aren't welcome, then telling me how good the food is, and then make me step around your trash...

In short, you're basically saying you just don't care [about]

P.S. The Restaraunt lobby Monday took out full page ads in all major newspapers declaring the obesity epidemic is all [government] hype and a myth.

See, I never understood the "I AM OFFENDED! OUTRAGED! GODDAMNIT< THE VERY EXISTENCE OF THAT BOLT THREATENS CIVILIZATION! IT RUINED MY CLIMB!" crowd.

The first ascenionist. It is obviously up to their discretion. This is why would not pull or chop a bolt that I see as unnecessary, but I would charge FAists to be responsible and accountable for every bolt they place.

As I've said elsewhere, in spite of all the growth in their sport surfers are lucky - you can't bolt waves. You still have to come up with same skill and stones as you parents or grandparents did if you want to ride Pipeline on a big day (regardless of whether they build a McDonalds on the beach or not...)

For those who thoroughly enjoy crack climbing, you would think that this would make it MORE fun to climb, as now you can safely attempt harder cracks, and push your limits, and not have to worry about finding the right size cam, or nut, or hex, or ham f-ing sandwich to shove into the crack. Do not get me wrong, I am not bashing on trad climbing, I have tons of respect for it, as much as every other aspect of climbing (except for slacklining on plain level ground, stupid dirty hippies with nothing better to do :lol: ), I just think that people are being totally elitist and snobby about this whole thing. Oh no, so there is a bolt there, and you brought a whole rack of gear to the crag. DON'T USE THE DAMN BOLT! In fact, don't even look at the bolt. Give it the cold shoulder, yeah, that will teach it a lesson.

Give me a break, it's a frickin piece of metal, let it be...

About Williamson Rock: As a primarily trad climber having sport climbed there numerous times, I could really care less if the two chossy cracks there were bolted.

I hate to see a bolted crack if it'll take pro. But I saw something that was worse yet. A couple of "dudes" climbed this .11a finger tip crack in the City of Rocks that was bolted, clipping every bolt along the way. Then they proclaimed at the top that it was ridiculous to have a bolted crack, at which point they rapped off and removed every bolt hanger along the way. I wouldn take issue with it if they had place all their own gear on the way up but this was ridiculous.

It sounds like there is/was a group of climbers there who made use of their local resource in the manner they saw fit.

Meanwhile, he'll tell stories about a friend who broke his back toproping a steep overhang, or his 5.11x FA. I'm sure those lines get done a lot.

I'm sure those lines get done a lot. I'll even go out on a limb here and say they're stupid and should be retroed.

The only reason the Valley hasn't turned into a near-murderous bolt war is the feds stepped in - otherwise heads would have rolled long ago. Do you really think the new generations of [sport] "young guns" visiting the Valley will share your respect for old, bold routes of old.

Would it kill you or someone else spending the day at Dishman to throw two cams in their bag - I don't think so. If you are asking me to respect what I consider lame and unconscionable behavior I have to say that isn't going to happen.

Don't you think it's ironic that the same folks chopping the bolts in these near murderous bolt wars you refer to were still out there happily nailing there way up the newest A4 testpieces?

I'm amazed that you keep refering to Yosemite in your argument about those evil bolts while completely disregarding the fact that many of the hardest free walls out there are nearly completely manufactured from years of pin scars. Ever hear of constructive cleaning? Would a camaflouged hangar from the beginning really have been worse than that ugly pin scar that eventually resulted in a flared nut placement?

Now, I'm not knocking all of the nailing that has been done in the valley so please don't take it that way. I just find some of the arguments a little bit hypocritical. Somehow is OK to bang in a pin but it's unethical to drill a bolt. Just because that bong is removable doesn't make it somehow less damaging than a bolt.

I don't hear about an A4 going free very often.

If you are asking me to respect what I consider lame and unconscionable behavior I have to say that isn't going to happen.

Sure you do. They just aren't A4 any longer by that point. Repeated nailing has reduced them to A1 or A2 by the time they go free.

Jeremy

Then you should refrain from visiting sport climbing areas that employ these techniques.

DMT

And when these sport techniques visit your 10 trad areas, what then...?

And when these sport techniques visit your 10 trad areas, what then...?

word to that s--- fshizzle.

flame me for this if you feel the need. but i will always feel a sense of loss and disgust when i see a protectable crack with bolts next to it. not trying to be a hardman tough guy. just seems really dumb and unnecessary.

also please don't try the "fair access to all climbers / what if i can't afford trad gear cuz iam 10 yrs old?" argument. it is weak and played, and makes ray bradbury spin like a f---ing top in his grave. give the man some peace and quiet... commies! heh.

What if you're not 10? What if you're chinese or south american and you only make 2000$/year and you can barely afford a rope, harness, and shoes?

As I've said elsewhere, in spite of all the growth in their sport surfers are lucky - you can't bolt waves. You still have to come up with same skill and stones as you parents or grandparents did if you want to ride Pipeline on a big day (regardless of whether they build a McDonalds on the beach or not...)

That's why we now have V16 and 5.15, and sport climbers of pretty much average ability would be able to use your (months old, yet still oft-cited) 5.11c as a warmup, were it well-protected.

8^)

Those sport climbers tend to fall and get hurt on those trad 11's, because for one thing, PLACING THE GEAR IS NOT JUST A SKILL, IT TAKES ENDURANCE AND STRENGTH TO HANG IN THERE AND DO IT, and for another, trad climbs have so many different techniques compared to sport climging that your average sport climber will have a melt down and not even know where to begin on some of your more bizzare trad climbs.

Of course, strength and endurance are both things that sport climbers tend to have in excess of your typical old-school trad :P. But either way you ignored that I mentioned that I was only talking about the difficulty of the actual climbing, without regard to issues relating to protection.

Point taken about bizzare climbs. Doesn't really contradict my point, though, which was that Healyje's claim that the modern guys don't have skills which stack up against older generations is bunk.

That's why we now have V16 and 5.15, and sport climbers of pretty much average ability would be able to use your (months old, yet still oft-cited) 5.11c as a warmup, were it well-protected.

8^)

I think, perhaps i don't agree with the entire trad vs sport philosophy here.
In my experience, the two have little in common. Trad is slow, adventurous, meditative, intensely so, and requires constant judging whether you should place pro, move on and run it out, all based on a number of careful estimates.

Sport is a fast, intense activity, where you may fall a lot, and hangdog, redpoint, etc etc etc, all that stuff the ethics of the 60es frown upon. Because this is supposed to be fun and "carefree" (relatively).

Ah, the boldness thing again.

I don't think you fully understand that the old-school emphasis on showing your "stones" is not considered important from the sport climbing perspective. Evil Knieval style tricks may be (mentally) difficult to accomplish, but sport climbing is about difficult movement, and there's no question that the new generation has "come up with" far more skill at the actual movement of climbing than their "parents and grandparents". This isn't just an issue of bolts: it's evident on (unbolted) boulders as well. That's why we now have V16 and 5.15, and sport climbers of pretty much average ability would be able to use your (months old, yet still oft-cited) 5.11c as a warmup, were it well-protected.

8^)