Lots of people who know how to place gear still bolt protectable cracks. Many factors contribute, the main being the type of crag the area is.

It's not because someone put up sport routes that they don't climb trad, they are just smart enough to accept change and have decided to not limit themselves to one disipline.

...smart enough to accept change...

crag. What is clearly "lame" is applying traditional climbing ethics to a sport crag. For the millionth time: sport crags have their own ethics.

I think this is wrong when concerned with an issue that is on the borderline, such as rap bolting or something of that nature. Then local ethics rule. But, when blasting a hole in the rock when there are other options is concerned, in my opinion that is blatently unnecessary and thus local ethics are overruled.

A tragic lack of ethics rooted in the judeo-christian idea of it all being god-given to do with as one pleases.

Every unecessary bolt is simply unecessary blight representing an astonishing level of group denial from folks who simply accept them let alone welcome them...

and then, who gets to decide, case by case, whether a bolt is necessary?

The first ascenionist. It is obviously up to their discretion.

Now that is a new wacko bend on an old issue, I'll give you that! Blame sport climbing on Christians.

Dude, you are smoking the s---!

DMT

Bright enough to figure out a reference linking blatant consumption and consumer behavior with the country's judeo-christian outlook on the environment and resource management in general.

Well, there is absolutely no difference in the consumptive mindset and rationale between this issue of judicious and reasoned use of fixed pro [as a last resort down to each and every miserable bolt] versus grid bolting simply for "convenience" and the issue of selective cutting versus clear cutting in our forests.

Why the hell would we leave some trees when we're taking most of them any way?

Again, how many unnecessary bolts does it take before it becomes objectionable?

When does an area become "sport" and who decides?

When enough people with drills show up? You'd be the first one b---- and moaning if someone decided to retro bolt Valley trade routes - why?

And what about when sport folks demand a piece of the action at your favorite trad crag?

Maybe the elitism is more about protecting my rock and not really giving a rat's ass about "lesser" crags and other people's stone.

When the big red and yellow sign says "Over Twenty Million Bolts Served" it and they just can't be wrong...

Remember the giant statues the Taliban blew straight to hell? Carved from living rock from non-Judeau-Christians.

How about the Great Wall of China? Built by non-Christians, carved from rock.

Ever heard of the Parthenon, the Acropolis? Built from 'living' stone as I recall.

The Pyramids seem to be built o rock too.

All of these things were built of rock, by non Christians, who saw fit to use the rock they found to build things.

I agree. There are forests where we should not clear cut. There are other forests where it is totally appropriate to do so. I will give you an example: old growth redwood forests should not be clear cut for a variety of reasons. Wayerhauser pulp forests of southern Georgia, monolithic stands of tree, tree farms if you will? Totally appropriate to clear cut those.

Your tragic mistake is your inability to distinguish.

To you? None I would suppose. Have you evcer visited one of the tree farm forests of south Georgia? How about the ones in Maine? Have you visited every single forest in the country, to determine if selective cutting is in fact the appropriate logging method? I might ask the same of climbing areas, but I know you haven't, so I won't bother..

Not you, that much is obvious.

We are not talking about retrobolting, sorry. Different subject. See, that would be akin to going back to the selectively cut forest and taking out the trees that were purposely left behind.

Yawn, I really don't care all that much I reckon. There are sport routes in the Valley and the few I have done, I enjoyed them.

Your logic is faulty, your conclusion, bunk.

I can name 10 towns near here that have no Mc Donalds. I can also name 10 climbing areas near here that have no sport routes. Sometimes I want to sit down for a good homecooked meal. Other times I pine for a Big Mac. I like choice in my life and I'll be damned if I will cede that privilege to a reactionary who crys foul over any rap placed bolt, crack or no crack.

DMT

As you usually do when the going gets hard - instantly rachet out to ludicrous extremes in scope, time, and topic. We're talking consumption behaviors in the relatively modern U.S. timeframes. I know it's hard, but try to stick with modern times and our behavior and its possible roots and consequences...

Great answer, glib beyong compare - but want to try and actually answer it or was the question simply too hard...?

Actually, it's the very same subject as many climbs are now being retro bolted by sport climbers to bring them down to their comfort level.

Oh, so then aside from the regs (and given you left out the Valley questions in your liberal cut-n-paste job) you're saying you'd have no problem seeing El Cap trade routes bolted? If not, why - yawn - who would care? No one but climbers would even know...

Could be, if you don't even give a rat's ass about your own local crag. Or maybe it's only the real big stone you care about...? Who knows with that answer...

You may be able to name 10 climbing areas that currently have no sport routes (and bully for you...), and we can assume from your comments you'd have no objection to folks "sporting out" those routes and areas.

but the equivalent dining analogy is don't go around building McDonalds where they aren't welcome, then telling me how good the food is, and then make me step around your trash...

In short, you're basically saying you just don't care [about]

P.S. The Restaraunt lobby Monday took out full page ads in all major newspapers declaring the obesity epidemic is all [government] hype and a myth.

See, I never understood the "I AM OFFENDED! OUTRAGED! GODDAMNIT< THE VERY EXISTENCE OF THAT BOLT THREATENS CIVILIZATION! IT RUINED MY CLIMB!" crowd.

The first ascenionist. It is obviously up to their discretion. This is why would not pull or chop a bolt that I see as unnecessary, but I would charge FAists to be responsible and accountable for every bolt they place.

As I've said elsewhere, in spite of all the growth in their sport surfers are lucky - you can't bolt waves. You still have to come up with same skill and stones as you parents or grandparents did if you want to ride Pipeline on a big day (regardless of whether they build a McDonalds on the beach or not...)