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drector
May 17, 2005, 4:47 PM
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I am torn. As a parent, I get a sick feeling every time I see someone put their child in danger. On the other hand, who the hell are all of you to decide what is right for that family and that kid?
There are kids in much more iminent danger and you sit and do nothing about it. Hunderds of kids are killed each year BY their parents. Not by accident.
If you are so concerned about children then go out and start a campaign to rid the world of that silly religion where people don't go to the doctor. Their kids die because of their inaction. Or how about become an activist against drunk driving that happens to kill thousands each month. Many of those killed by stupid drunks are kids and yet this one instance of a free-solo kid climber is somehow severe enough to call the government. I hope someone tries to take your kid away some day.
Next, someone will want to take my kid because I let her climb using a rope for protection. God forbid I ever let her lead before she is 18 and legal to climb.
Dave
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thorne
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May 17, 2005, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: They depict a young woman free-soloing a 70-foot near vertical rock wall, with her daughter, aged 10 or less, free soloing with her. The rock looks rotten and the route looks about 5.5 or so.
Near vertical? The pics are obviously rotated to give an overly dramatic portrayal of the climb's steepness. Looks more like class 4.
I'm all for child safety, but your dishonest representation of the situation makes me think you have ulterior motives.
Ta ta
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storm
May 17, 2005, 5:19 PM
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Hi everyone,
While I appreciate everyone's concern I want to put your mind at ease. I am not some zombie going around doing everything my husband tells me to. I have no problem saying "no thank you" to anything I don't want to do. I looked at this rock however and felt I could do it. It is the type of rock that anyone's kids could scramble up. Storm is not irresponsible. He has never encouraged the kids or I to climb Gibraltar or Sespe or any of the difficult climbs he and his 29 year old son like to do.
We are making a movie about the raw-vegan diet. Can you imagine trying to make a film about diet interesting? Quite a challenge I'll tell you. This web page is a "mythology" designed to present our film. However so as not to be irresponsible about this we put a warning at the bottom of the page telling people why they should not try this at home.
We never intended to put this out to the climbing community as a serious climb. One of our raw-vegan visitors who must also be a climber did that. Regarding camera angles check out the one on the front page of this very site today http://www.rockclimbing.com where the camera is actually upside down! It is not uncommon to take pictures at an angle especially during climbs.
I know a lot of the climbers on here are emailing with Storm and getting into heated discussions and some are getting angered and have actually said that they are calling Child Protective Services right away. One thing I can almost assure you is that if my children are taken by CPS and placed in a foster home they will very likely become seriously ill. They have never had sugar, food with chemicals, processed food, packaged food, junk food, sodas, candy, dairy products, or meat of any kind including chicken or fish. Do any of you really think that our children would be better off in a foster home?
I think that people here are over-reacting because they don't realize that this is a diet website about a flim and not a climbing website about freestyling.
Peace,
Jinjee
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blonde_loves_bolts
May 17, 2005, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: I am torn. As a parent, I get a sick feeling every time I see someone put their child in danger. On the other hand, who the hell are all of you to decide what is right for that family and that kid? There are kids in much more iminent danger and you sit and do nothing about it. Hunderds of kids are killed each year BY their parents. Not by accident. If you are so concerned about children then go out and start a campaign to rid the world of that silly religion where people don't go to the doctor. Their kids die because of their inaction. Or how about become an activist against drunk driving that happens to kill thousands each month. Many of those killed by stupid drunks are kids and yet this one instance of a free-solo kid climber is somehow severe enough to call the government. I hope someone tries to take your kid away some day. Next, someone will want to take my kid because I let her climb using a rope for protection. God forbid I ever let her lead before she is 18 and legal to climb. Dave
This situation isn't just about a parent recklessly putting their kid in danger. This is about a parent knowingly and recklessly endangering their kid, their wife, taking pictures of it to post on a website and video not only to promote their commercial interests, but to inadvertantly encourage others to do the same. Yes, "putting your kid in danger" is a relative term, but it's not an arbitrary, all-or-nothing concept like some people on this board like to say it is.
It's a balancing test, a scale where the important measure is between how inherently dangerous the activity is and how much protection is in place. By protection, I mean education, circumstance, forethought, protective headgear, functional equipment, skill, experience, and accountability. The more inherently dangerous a situation is, the more protection is needed, and protection means the all encompassing concept I just explained. So if you're an expert, you have years of experience, you are accountable, you know your route, you've thought it through and you are doing it for yourself AND ONLY yourself, go ahead and solo. If you're inexperienced but want to try an inherently dangerous activity like climbing, have as many expert and experienced climbers around you as possible, let them belay you, choose the appropriate difficulty level in the climb, let them set the anchor, wear your helmet, and learn as much as you can. It's still an inherently dangerous activity in both scenarios, but the protection factor is what makes the difference.
I still have a reply to Storm's second posting, but I need to get back to work for now before my supervisor gives me her Rodney Dangerfield look again.
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 5:20 PM
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To Dave Rector:
There is a difference between taking your kid climbing (I do all the time) and goading them into freesoloing so that you can make money off of the event by selling books on your website. I started freesoloing 5.10 at the age of 16, which has been damn near 30 years ago now. But I did it out of my own teenage stupidity, not because my dad was trying to make money off me. I still solo all the time, and I think it's a good way to set your head straight.
If Storm was molesting his daughter, would you have the same laisez Faire attutude?? Because the girl could DIE doing this little publicity trick. This is a serious matter. And Storm's response to my email showed clearly that he doesn't know the first damn thing about climbing. He's a rank 5.7 beginner with a John Bachar attitude.
I encourage you all to call ventura Child protective services. Storm needs to know that his kids are not publicity stunt cash cows.
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davidji
May 17, 2005, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: Near vertical? The pics are obviously rotated to give an overly dramatic portrayal of the climb's steepness. Looks more like class 4. |
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shakylegs
May 17, 2005, 5:38 PM
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In reply to: My reply to Storm, in response to his posting on this forum: ========= Hi Storm, thanks for replying. [snip] Amos Clifford
You know, if you used instant messaging, you would have less to copy and paste.
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crotch
May 17, 2005, 5:44 PM
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AFTER WATCHING 'SOOPERSIZE ME' I HAVE DECIDED TO SIT AT MY LOCAL MCDONALDS AND CALL CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES EVERY TIME SOMEBODY FORCES THEIR KIDS TO EAT A HAPPY MEAL.
STORM IS A VERY SERIOUS CLIMBER WHO DOESN'T NEED YOUR GIRLY ROPES.
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 5:55 PM
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Just so you all have a real name to call in to the Child Protective Services, this "Storm" guy has a real name: it's
Gerald Talifero.
People who abuse their kids always feel self righteous. Especially those who can't see beyond their own egos and who use their kids to sell
Vegan-Os cereal or whatever B.S. these folks are selling.
Help bust these people. Today.
Signing out on this one.
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iamthewallress
May 17, 2005, 5:58 PM
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In reply to: As to which it is, let me ask you as climbers: if someone had been climbing for 25 years, would they use the common slang terminology of climbing such as, "free soloing", "mountaineering" or "trad climbing" and use common grading terms for context, or would they use a load of made-up technical terms which "sound right" but have no meaning?
Wouldn't it be positively refreshing that someone might learn about climbing from 25 years of personal experience with the rock without ever checking into "the community" for lingo approval or anything else for that matter? I like the idea that his guy might have been climbing all this time without knowing what type of climbing shoes put bread on Chris Sharma's table or how his dick measures up next to everyone else's. People really did learn how to climb before Royal Robbins or John Long or TFOTH told us how to do so 'safely'. Our instincts rarely let us take on more than we can handle, no matter what anyone else tells us to do, even as children.
FWIW, the term "trad climbing" is pretty much consider the irritating badge of a n00b by many of my friends who have been climbing since it was just called "climbing". They would laugh to know that one must use the designation to be considered a "Real Climber".
The kid in the pictures sure looked like she was climbing 4th class with a spotter to me. Oh, the humanity! I did the same thing without a spotter, and my parents bid me to do so with loving, "Go outside and play!"
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toejam
May 17, 2005, 6:04 PM
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I think a lot of you are getting suckered by the hype on that page. Looking at the photos at the correct angle, its 4th class not free-solo. I would most definitely NOT be siccing Health and Human Services on these people without something more substantial than that story. You could inflict some real trauma on that family.
To Storm and JinJee:
There is a lot that is troubling in that story about motivations and pressures to engage in risk-taking behaviour. I appreciated your cogent replies on the board, and agree with many of your points. But I hope you realize that the outrage you are hearing from this community is grounded in concern and experience. The fact that a group of people, who's primary recreation is centered around just this sort of activity, is so concerned with your activity should raise a red flag with you. I recommend you yank that page promptly and ponder some of the more well-reasoned replies on this page.
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drector
May 17, 2005, 6:04 PM
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In reply to: To Dave Rector: There is a difference between taking your kid climbing (I do all the time) and goading them into freesoloing so that you can make money off of the event by selling books on your website. I started freesoloing 5.10 at the age of 16, which has been damn near 30 years ago now. But I did it out of my own teenage stupidity, not because my dad was trying to make money off me. I still solo all the time, and I think it's a good way to set your head straight. If Storm was molesting his daughter, would you have the same laisez Faire attutude?? Because the girl could DIE doing this little publicity trick. This is a serious matter. And Storm's response to my email showed clearly that he doesn't know the first damn thing about climbing. He's a rank 5.7 beginner with a John Bachar attitude. I encourage you all to call ventura Child protective services. Storm needs to know that his kids are not publicity stunt cash cows.
There is a lot of talk about taking a kid away from their parents. This is not something to be taken lightly. To a parent, it is dire.
If this were rape then yes it is different. Rape is wrong and illegal. The point is that the kid could DIE doing many things besides this climbing stunt. This is not an act of violence or malevolence against the kid. It is a parent allowing their kid to be in a dangerous situation. Something which I and most parents do every day.
About 1/2 mile from my house is a tree. The tree has a memorial on it because a teenager drove his car into it at 35+ MPH and killed his friend and maimed two girls. He walked away with a broken wrist. The point is; riding in cars is deadly and I'm going to call CPS if you let your kid do it!
Driving is statistically more dangerous than climbing free-solo. Well it might very well be and since no one knows, lets make that assumption and get off this guys back. You let your kid ride in cars and he lets his kid climb free solo.
I forgot to mention that my parents let me free solo up to about 40 feet when I was a kid. I didn't die but I might have gotten pretty screwed up if CPS took me from myt loving caring parents. Oh, but it was a tree so it seemed okay at the time.
Dave
P.S. Someone has to be the devils advocate.
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unabonger
May 17, 2005, 6:09 PM
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The real crime here is advocating a vegan diet. Talk about nuts!
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maculated
May 17, 2005, 6:11 PM
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I tend to agree with Drector and Wallress here - but only because I think you guys aren't willing to step out of your heads for a moment and think about the difference in your ideology and Storm's.
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seabee
May 17, 2005, 6:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think that people here are over-reacting because they don't realize that this is a diet website about a flim and not a climbing website about freestyling. A 10 year old and an inexperienced adult have no business being led to "freestyling" (which, in case you are wondering, is not what the climbing community calls climbing without a rope).
I'm surprised that this is the first time in the thread that this has been brought up... this hardman with decades of climbing under his belt calls it "freestyling"? I thought that was a swimming stroke...
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fiend
May 17, 2005, 6:28 PM
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If this thread represents the climbing communities general idealogies and propensity for action without thought then I'm ashamed to be a part of it.
Although I agree that there were several questionable things mentioned in the article, I don't think anyone here has any real understanding of the process that these people went through before engaging in such a climb.
Maybe Storm is needlessly endagering his family members.
Maybe he's telling the truth and has prepared them for what they're doing in those photos. If what he has to say about the preparation is true then it doesn't seem all that dangerous to me. Seventy feet is high, but I climbed some pretty stupid stuff when I was younger as well. My mom allowed me to climb trees and scramble off the path when I was younger, does that make her a monster?
I think society tries too hard to protect kids these days. While I don't necessarily condone Storm's actions, I appreciate that he's trying to take a more open approach to raising his children.
An issue like this can't be resolved on the internet. No one here has the ability to read what little information has been presented and make an informed decision.
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jt512
May 17, 2005, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: The real crime here is advocating a vegan diet. Talk about nuts!
I may have to steal that line.
It is possible to raise children on a vegan diet, but precautions have to be taken to avoid deficiencies in total calories and certain nutrients. Usually, this requires supplements and fortified foods. Raising a child on a raw diet is even more challenging; maybe not impossible, but the diet would have to be very well planned and monitored to ensure that the child was getting enough calories.
-Jay
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blonde_loves_bolts
May 17, 2005, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: I would most definitely NOT be siccing Health and Human Services on these people without something more substantial than that story. You could inflict some real trauma on that family.
If I knew these people personally or had reason to believe their children were subject to abuse or their lives were imminently in danger, only then would I contact Child Protective Services. I think this situation should be brought to light and either stopped or made safer, but I don't think that taking kids away from their parents is necessarily a solution here.
It doesn't matter if the climb is 4th class. It's chossy and vertical enough to the point where slipping could result in death. Also, I'm rarely impressed by those who can dish out the climbing lingo faster than I can take a lead fall, but Storm is basically saying that it wasn't soloing because the mother was there to catch her. Like others have said, the mother is not a spotter if she does not have the capacity in that situation to, well, spot.
I fail to see the connection between this climbing excursion and being a vegan. Last time I checked, being a vegan meant eating a healthy diet free of meat and dairy. That is, unless you belong to a sorority I know (which shall remain nameless) where being a vegan includes the above, plus cigarettes and alcohol. However, I'm sure there are ways to make your program interesting without endangering a child.
This isn't climbing a tree. This isn't driving. And if you really want to get technical, the physical activity that yields the most injuries is golf. But just because you haven't gotten hurt doing an activity at this level hardly qualifies you as an expert. If that were the case, I can think of a lot of future Darwin candidates who must be at the top of their field. This is a patriarch with a passion for control, including controlling the ability to visualize the risk involved to his family.
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grover
May 17, 2005, 6:45 PM
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Well said Fiend.
Taking one's children away is a serious thing folks.
I as well remember when just a kid climbing up anything, crashing into walls, nearly drowning while being dragged behind a boat etc... All while being watched by my parents!!!
We see abuse to children everyday, parents smoking in a car, windows rolled up.. Do any of you speak up and call the authorities?
Feeding your kids shitty fast-food is a form of abuse in my books.
This forum slamming of one family and threats of having there children taken away is mind-boggling to me.
If you want to save a child from abuse join a care-giving group, donate to some sort of shelter or if you SEE the abuse speak up!!! Photos of someone scrambling up a gully in my books is not abuse.
I as well am ashamed to be any part of this type of lynch mob.
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yardonthis
May 17, 2005, 6:50 PM
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Graniteboy - maybe what's pissing you off is that "Storm" is advertising his lifestyle as superior and including his kids in that advertising. Whether it's a Jehovah Witness telling me I'm going to burn in hell or a veghead telling me I'm going to blow out an artery it's equally annoying.
Then again, Storm didn't come knocking on my door to deliver his message.
It's pretty clear that the "climb" his kid is "soloing" is just scrambling - something we all did growing up. It's irritating and probably ill advised, but hardly criminal, that "Storm" claims that his kid can scramble up a heap because she eats raw carrots instead of because it's fun.
Or maybe what's pissing everyone off is that Storm claims he's a real climber and is qualified to teach climbing, when clearly ummm, he isn't. Are you going to phone CPS to report all those fat dorky dads teaching boy scouts how to climb?
You sound at least as unhinged as Storm when you advocate calling CPS. I'm not suprised they sounded bored when you called - I'm sure they're overloaded trying to do anything effective about cases of actual abuse.
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kman
May 17, 2005, 7:07 PM
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Storm you are a wannabe and you definately don't know shit about climbing. Why do I say that? Look at the pics. They totally misrepresent the experience and any idiot can tell they are tilted. http://www.thegardendiet.com/movieframesite/home/ Look at the pics on this part of the site. I like how you tie in the rope through the belay loop...can't tell what knot you are using so I won't comment on it. The pic of the guy sitting on the cliff is severly tilted. And the funny thing is you pass yourself off as an expert.
I do give you credit for not feeding shit like Mcd's and chemical laden foods to your kids though.
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codhands
May 17, 2005, 7:27 PM
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Kman I think that knot is a bowline with a safety, can't be sure. Storm, you've got really beautiful children and wife, take care of em.
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killclimbz
May 17, 2005, 7:30 PM
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I have to say that this thread has become more about us sticking our collective "noses" in some one else's business. The kid is defnitely doing a 4th class scramble and this guy is definitely a poser at best.
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