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kman
May 17, 2005, 7:33 PM
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In reply to: Kman I think that knot is a bowline with a safety, can't be sure.
Dunno man, I really can't tell...it's too blurry...
Anyways, the real crime here is that they are missing out on the pure joy of stuffing a big juicy chunk of tenderloin down their gullet.
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iamthewallress
May 17, 2005, 7:36 PM
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I like the fact that the number one "Related Topic" that I'm getting for this thread is "Help Save My Ugly Toes"!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Also, I couldn't see the pics well enough to discern a rope or a harness let alone what knot was used. I know that the harnesses that we use for groups at the gym have a tie in loop. They're made by Petzl. One size fits all. Keeps you from needing to grab strangers in the crotch to tie them in. What kind of harness does she appear to you eagle eyes to be wearing?
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takeme
May 17, 2005, 7:50 PM
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Hmmmmm
I'm glad noone called CPS when my dad took me up Long's Peak (4th class) when I was 13!
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jtme
May 17, 2005, 8:18 PM
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Hey all
after you turn him in perhaps we can burn some books, chop some bolts, persecute them cuz they are the wrong religion and becuase they eat the wrong foods
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 8:19 PM
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Well, I started the thread and have been following it. Gotta say I have some ambivalent feelings about it all now. There are interesting points made about lots of aspects of this.
I think if this had happened at a local crag when a group of climbers were present, Storm would have heard an opinion or two.
Regarding having children taken away, don't sweat it. If CPS even bothers, they'll see some of the healthiest looking children they've ever encountered, with loving, present and involved parents who maintain a very healthy home environment, shrug their shoulders, and go deal with the real messes out there. (The website has lots of family photos). If I were to do it again I might not call or advocate calling CPS. I just wanted Storm to get the message. I don't think this strategy has succeeded, so it was a faulty approach. But I could not in good conscience ignore the matter.
And by the way, the original concern had nothing to do with veganism or raw food diets. I'm not a nutritionist, but I'm the same age as Storm and when I see photos of him I envy his health. Not enough to become a raw food vegan...but still, the guy looks like I did when I was 27 (he's 52).
My idea of an ideal ending to this whole post would be for Storm to say, "Sheesh guys, thanks for pointing that out to me. I'll definitely think it over", and then for us all to congratulate him and go on about our business, breathing a collective sigh of relief for Raven and Jinjee.
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photon
May 17, 2005, 8:21 PM
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go hide in the shadow of security you fool
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 8:36 PM
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Yardonthis:
What is "pissing me off" about this guy is that he is a dangerous, controlling, David Koresh type of personality who is putting his child's life on the line in a sport he doesn't know squat about, and yet is a self proclaimed "expert"...and all this so he can sell his vegan diet books and seminars....he obviously doesn't care a damned thing about the kid...the kid has become a marketing tool for this neandertal.
And to get to one of the points made above: I have nailed more than a few boyscout leaders who were endangering the kids in their charge.
It's the only moral thing to do when you see someone risking a kid's life. And it makes these boneheads think long and hard about their behaviour when the D.A. gives them a call.
Hell....would you call the dogpound if you knew that the neighbors weren't feeding their dog??? Or would that be "putting your nose into other people's business" ??? Does the kid deserve at least the community concern that a dog would when someone was endangering it???
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davidji
May 17, 2005, 9:01 PM
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In reply to: If CPS even bothers, they'll see some of the healthiest looking children they've ever encountered, with loving, present and involved parents who maintain a very healthy home environment, shrug their shoulders, and go deal with the real messes out there.
Wouldn't it be nice if it worked that way? Healthy children have been siezed from loving homes when parents refused to give their children controversial vaccines, or when mothers breastfed children deemed too old. When the parent's judgment of what is best for their child differs from "The Man" sometimes children end up in foster care.
When I lived in San Diego many years ago there was a scathing grand jury review of the local CPS. An internet search will reveal an endless list of CPS abuses. The search I just did also revealed that the county I live in now has had a similar grand jury report on its own CPS. I mention the grand jury reports because the grand juries investigate many cases, and you might find their reports more convincing than websites with agendas (for example http://www.fightcps.com, a site I just found via internet search).
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 11:16 PM
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"Dear Sir;
I have referred your message to our Sexual Assualt and Family
Protection Unit for review.
Very truly yours,
Gregory W. Brose
Senior Deputy District Attorney
Ventura County District Attorney's Office"
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storm
May 17, 2005, 11:26 PM
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Good point. Unfortunately the CPS aren't the good guys many people here obviously think they are. I just talked to a friend who is a social worker about this and they have a very cookie cutter idea of what a family should be and if you don't fit into that you've got problems. We totally don't fit.
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 11:38 PM
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BUT, the question IS, "Jinji" and "Storm": Would Child protective services encourage your kids to freesolo and then use pictures of your children freesoloing so that they could make money off of them???
By that standard, you must admit that you are, at minimum, exploiting your child for profit. Which is immoral, dangerous, and, quite probably, Illegal. It is one of the fundamental rights of children (By U.N. Standards) to not be exploited. This is not just an opinion...it is the law, both federally and internationally.
As far as I can tell, Storm and Jinji are unaware that the poor damned kid is anything other than a means to sell vegan books....a cheap, disposable, Publicity stunt.....and they should think DAMN long and hard about that when CPS comes a calling. I'm sure CPS will be thinking of that when they decide whether or not to allow you to keep raising these kids.
You'll be hearing from the District Attorney's office and CPS any time now.
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toloco
May 17, 2005, 11:46 PM
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"He developed many of the methods used in training for freestyle mountain climbing although this is not a commonly taught sport."
I'm really interested in this freestyle climbing. I see it's not commonly taught, but where can I find out more about it. Perhaps at the local dance school? I'm finding just doing the moves on a climb is becoming a little boring. Maybe busting out the worm or a back spin in the middle of the climb would make it more entertaining for me. Do you usually have musical accompaniment? Do you find that the judging system is very good, or does it have similar problems to figure skating or synchronized swimming?
Or do I have it all backwards, and really you're supposed to rap a new song about the climb as you go?
Any info concerning this would be appreciated.
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pt
May 17, 2005, 11:46 PM
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I 4th classed with my dad all the time before we learned about "real" climbing. We had fun, maybe were in some danger, but I don't think I needed to be sent off to foster parents. We shouldn't judge too quickly.
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crimpandgo
May 17, 2005, 11:47 PM
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In reply to: Yardonthis: What is "pissing me off" about this guy is that he is a dangerous, controlling, David Koresh type of personality who is putting his child's life on the line in a sport he doesn't know squat about, and yet is a self proclaimed "expert"...and all this so he can sell his vegan diet books and seminars....he obviously doesn't care a damned thing about the kid...the kid has become a marketing tool for this neandertal. And to get to one of the points made above: I have nailed more than a few boyscout leaders who were endangering the kids in their charge. It's the only moral thing to do when you see someone risking a kid's life. And it makes these boneheads think long and hard about their behaviour when the D.A. gives them a call. Hell....would you call the dogpound if you knew that the neighbors weren't feeding their dog??? Or would that be "putting your nose into other people's business" ??? Does the kid deserve at least the community concern that a dog would when someone was endangering it???
If a class 4 requires the CPS to get involved, then the CPS is gonna be busy cause just about every family that brings their kids climbing fits into this category. Kids are fearless. I dont know how many times when I have been climbing, I see kids at the crags climbing up stuff I would never dream of doing without a rope. Heck, my own kids are doing before I get a chance to say something.
I am not advocating what choices Storm has chosen, but the simple fact is we have become a paranoid (and arrogant) society. I listen to the stories of what people my fathers age did and I have to chuckle. Its amazing any of them are still alive today to talk about it.
Part of growing up is facing real life situations. If we buffer our kids from everything that is dangerous then the kids will not learn to take care of themselves. And frankly they will not have any fun.
I agree there are limits. Some things clearly are past the limits and need intervention, but we must be constantly aware of the situations that are simply subjective and fall into the catagory of "differences in personal philosophies".
Anyone who is getting self-righteous about this situation, I recommend you take a look at the photos again ( the real photos undoctered). Then go talk to you parents and grandparents about what they did as kids. I think you will find that rules have changed recently. The real question is, Have the rules changed for the better? That is a matter of opinion.
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fiend
May 17, 2005, 11:51 PM
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Just playing devil's advocate here graniteboy, but what proof do you have beyond what you've read here?
I've never trusted the internet for valid information and I wouldn't mess with someone's family because of what I read online. Do you not realize that having CPS involved in something like this could be far more traumatic for the children than anything that they've encountered to this point?
I read over a few sections of Storm's site and didn't see anything more than "this is my family, this is how we live, and we want to promote it."
In reply to: As far as I can tell, Storm and Jinji are unaware that the poor damned kid is anything other than a means to sell vegan books....a cheap, disposable, Publicity stunt...
That's harsh.
Maybe I'm wrong... maybe it's better to call in The Law before anything bad happens.
Maybe 75% of the users posting in this thread are completely over-reacting and about to cause an innocent family a lot of needless grief.
For fuck's sake... it was proved that passthepitonspete was harrassing female members (many were underage) and no one treated it as seriously as these allegations!
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graniteboy
May 18, 2005, 12:06 AM
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The other evidence I have are the emails back and forth between myself and this "storm" (gerald) guy.
The guy is a danger to his kid.
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couloir
May 18, 2005, 12:07 AM
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This guy should be reported to the social services, simply because of his name. It's also pretty fucked up what he gets his family to do.
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crimpandgo
May 18, 2005, 12:21 AM
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My point earlier was that "the guy is a danger to his kid" is subjective and based on your upbringing. Heck there are a lot of people that think top-roping with your kid is " a danger to his kid" . Most of those folks are non-climbers, but the point is still made. I swear nowadays CPS will show up at your door if your kid is riding their bike without a helmet on.
There are very clear cut cases that need intervention. but we have become a society that loves to butt into other peoples business. I really question whether that change is better for our kids? or eventually worse. The CPS is overworked as it is that they can't spend the time to deal with the "real" issues. Read the news on a daily basis. Kids being locked in their rooms starving to death. Babies being shaken to death. Many of the cases have been reported and the CPS simply doesn't have the manpower to handle all the cases.
So, if you really want to help out children in need, maybe your time would be better spent writing a check to the CPS so they can hire more people to help the kids that are in immediate and real danger. or maybe consider adopting so that you can assert your personal influences on a child and hope to make a positive difference for children that truely have no hope of normal lives.
Keep your headlights focuses on the real issues.
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feanor007
May 18, 2005, 12:27 AM
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so, is some one gonna turn me in because i've 4th classed with my little bro and heck, i got pictures to prove it, many times. guess what we had fun. i'm safe about what i rope up for (any 5th class) and what I let my bro follow me on. I use the opertunites to teach him about risk assessment and managment so that he is properly equipped to make decisions on his own. now i understand the 'exploitation' claims, but i didn't see any thing exploitive about the pics. don't get cps involved over 4th class scrambles, that's a horrible precedent IMO.
in my other sport, competitive shooting, i watched a daughter be ripped away, against her will, from two loving, responsible parents because some relative thought any gun handleing, no matter the enviornment, was irresposible. risk teaches responsibility. don't destroy families.
just my 2 cents, take it or leave it
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yardonthis
May 18, 2005, 12:28 AM
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Graniteboy, I'm pretty sure I've done (more than) a few things in my life that were ill-conceived and dangerous. Not only that, but I've more than once received unsolicited advise from strangers about how to take care of my own kid.
But if someone ratted me out and had the DA call me, or advised CPS to take away my kid, well let's say I wouldn't think they were doing me a favor.
Read your own posts line by line and see if you can differentiate between facts supported by physical evidence and your own opinions on right and wrong.
"he is a dangerous, controlling, David Koresh type of personality"
"all this so he can sell his vegan diet books and seminars"
"he obviously doesn't care a damned thing about the kid"
"the kid has become a marketing tool for this neandertal"
uh huh.
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takeme
May 18, 2005, 12:30 AM
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In reply to: You'll be hearing from the District Attorney's office and CPS any time now.
Graniteboy. I have copied your personal description for the readers of this thread to see:
Climbing: abt 30 years worth, mostly trad, free soloing, and alpine climbing. I climb; Walls (big and small) to alaskan monsters to bouldering to trees. I like other climbers who are not egocentric, and who know when to shut the hell up and listen to the voice of experience. I'm a biologist for money and for love. I climb things from 5.2 to about 12b/c. and ice up to WI 5-6. And trees up to abt sequoia 6. And alaska climbing to about PDS (pretty damned scary; alaska grades mean nothing, it's all abt the weather). But I only solo 10d, so I'm not a REAL hardman.
Alpine, WI6, dangerous Alaskan stuff, some pretty scary stuff there buddy. Why hell, that ain't hardly legal, or oughtn't be, know what I mean? I mean, if your mom could see what you were up to you'd be in so much trouble, right?
At least you take it mellow when it comes to the free soloing though. I mean, we can't all be hardmen, but we all know anybody worth his salt solos at least 10d.
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grover
May 18, 2005, 12:31 AM
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So, nebo is this the outcome you were after?
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nebo
May 18, 2005, 12:54 AM
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I think the crocodile man story referenced in the previous post has some similarities, but not quite the same. The croc man had more direct control of the situation. Also reminds me of the infamous Michael Jackson dangling his kid out the hotel window. They share a common thread with the one we are discussing: poor parental judgement, followed by a s---storm of community commentary.
What I'm thinking is, it seems like there is a tendency in these posts toward a majority opinion that as long as the climb was only class 4, it's okay for a parent to expose his or her child to the risk. This is supported with anecdotes and fond memories of "scrambles amongst the peaks with dad when I was a youth."
I think there is something to this argument. But there are several questions that it doesn't answer for me. For example, not all class 4 routes are the same difficulty or degree of danger. Heck, last summer my son (19 years old) and I did a nominally class 3 route on Mt. Brewer (east ridge) that I thought, if this is class 3, its class 3.12d--I mean, I was definitely paying attention to how I was climbing and afterwards I questioned if I wanted to encourage my son to repeat experiences like that. Plus, 5.9 for me is about 4th class for Lynn Hill.
So let's say, for the sake of debate, that class 4 is okay for 11 years to solo above the level where a fall would result in serious injury or death (I think that's what some folks are saying here--I'm not personally in agreement).
Is 5.0 okay?
Is 5.1?
Is 5.2?
etc?
Remember, we don't know how hard this route actually is.
And how high is okay?
And at what age?
But that, of course, is just part of the issue. The next part is, when is it justified to take actions on behalf of a child who we perceive to be at risk (and clearly we are not talking about normal day-to-day risks such as have been mentioned above, e.g. riding the subway, walking on a sidewalk, etc.; we are talking about exposure to circumstances that are clearly of greatly elevated risk):
Before an injury
After an injury
After death
Never--let God or Karma sort it out
And then, of course, there's who has the right (or whose business is it) to intervene:
Only an immediate family member
A friend
Someone who directly witnesses the event
Strangers with some expertise in the area of risk
Strangers with some expertise in the area of child welfare
Strangers with no expertise
A government agency
God/Random acts of nature
Gravity
So, when we are exposed to this event we are presented with multiply-faceted judgement call. Because it is a judgement call each of us will view it according to our perception filters and choose actions that we feel are most fitting.
To parse this out, my judgement was (and I'm not saying this is the ONE RIGHT WAY or the ULTIMATE TRUTH):
The rock is high and steep enough to result in a fatal fall.
Moreover, it is of poor quality, which dramatically increases the risk of a fall.
The child is too young to be on it; from the standpoint of sound judgement gained through adequate life experience.
Her parent is encouraging her to do so.
And viewing the photo scared the crap out of me for Raven (and to a lesser extent, for Jinjee).
And for me to not attempt to intervene MIGHT (I'm not actually totally sure of this--so I say might) be a betrayal of who I am.
I liked the point someone made earlier about if the neighbor is neglecting the dog; would we call spca?
As a postscript, I'm feeling the most remorse about this string when I see how our community sometimes indulges in name-calling (yeah, me too). I doubt that's helpful. Someone wrote, keep your focus. To my mind the focus is: How can we act in a way that is most likely to reduce the clearly unacceptable risks (again, IMHO) to which Raven is being exposed?
And I thought that appropriate for the Injuries and Accidents topic.
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