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wormly81
May 19, 2005, 10:53 PM
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In reply to: EastVillage Save the earth Kill yourself hehehe But seriously stop climbing if you are that worried about bolting a cliff and dude bolts are metal and metal is natural so it is natural to bolt a cliff but if you are that worried about the trees you better sell your wood house stop wrighting on wood paper stop travling and dont walk outside cause you might step on a worm and out of some wierd coincidence kill a tree DUDE TREES ARE A TOTALY RENEWABLE RESOURCE THAT WE NEED TO USE if it is done correctly it dosen't hurt the environment it helps it and let me guess you don't have wildfires in New York we do and they can be stopped by select cut logging then new trees get planted Save the Earth Kill Yourself
Just STFU when you have no idea what you are talking about. You make me want to break your other arm NOOB.
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dingus
May 19, 2005, 11:01 PM
Post #127 of 165
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Local ethics should be respected. Local, as in cliff by cliff, area by area. Ayup.
The climbing world would be a smaller place if Dresden, with routes 50-100 years old, were rap bolted to death. And if at some or even many CT crags the majority of routes established were top roped or lead by scary techniques, they should be left in situ, out of respect. Squeeze jobs should be avoided too.
Does that mean 'no bolting in CT?' I can't say as I have no useful perspective on it. That notion would be ridiculous in these parts however.
Maybe you guys need to be regulated for your own good, like Eldo and the Gunks.
DMT
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philbox
Moderator
May 19, 2005, 11:08 PM
Post #128 of 165
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I`ll say it again, keep the debate civil otherwise I will have to do some moderating of this thread.
We at rc.com use moderation as a very last resort. Typically we reserve our deletion powers for personal attacks, spam, scams double posts etc. I very much wish for the staff to not have to moderate any of the forums but we will if the debate descends down to the level of attacking each other personally.
I do understand that bolt wars engender a lot of ill feeling, I`ve felt those feelings myself when people have threatened to chop my routes.
I won`t say this again, keep things civil guys. Next time action will be taken. Tarpits will be handed out and posts will be deleted/shifted to the mods and eds private forum.
Now have at it, discuss the issues but don`t get personal.
Edit to say, not aimed at dingus or anyone else who is maintaining a civil stance.
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bvb
May 19, 2005, 11:14 PM
Post #129 of 165
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In reply to: bvb, I understand that you are a god among men. unfortunately, i am not. i bow down before you as you heft your mighty bottle. will you be my friend?
cool. a new groupie to add to my collection.
now fetch me another drink and make me a sammich, ya n00b.
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brokenarmboy19
May 19, 2005, 11:40 PM
Post #130 of 165
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Yay you all cought the retarded quote (i did but only after i posted it) I was being scarcastic i am really not that dumb just sometimes remove that part and re read it
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mburke225
May 20, 2005, 12:37 AM
Post #131 of 165
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It's just funny and somewhat sad that this is one of the only times I have heard any talk of the Ct cliffs on this site at all. Definately the most exposure we've ever had.
It's sad because the state really does have something to offer. Althought we don't have much height, we have great single pitch climbing areas with a ton of diverse rock types.
Big cliffs have a way of humbling people. I guess it takes a state full of excellent climbing on small rocks to cultivate the small minded personas that have come out of here.
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tradmanclimbs
May 20, 2005, 12:38 AM
Post #132 of 165
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Healyj. By un developed I mean Not Climbed. If you find a cliff, climb it ground up without bolts and clean it in the process you have every right to declare it bolt free. If all you did was top rope it you have NO CLAIM WHATSOEVER :twisted: Top ropeing does not count and never has except maby in CT :roll: But to think that a climbing god and his groupies( modern term would be posse) can lay claim to a whole state and in this case two states is totaly ridiculous :roll: I stated that if someone were to find a crag that was undeveloped which means not climbed, then they would have the right to climb that cliff in the style that they chose. i would prefer that it would be a ground up ethic but i certainly have no say over someone elses find. I also have no problem with bolts as long as they are placed on lead in trad areas and the sport areas respect natural lines. ( that means don't bolt cracks) Diferent styles of climbing can co exist if they respect each other. I DO favor bolted top anchors and prefer that they be placed just shy of the top of the cliff to keep trafic away from the area above the cliff. At my local crag over the last 20 years the soil and the belay trees have totaly dissapeared from the top of the cliff. at the top of the most populer climbs at least 3 trees that used to be belay trees for each climb are not even there any more and the earth is totaly gone, eroded back about 30 ft. in one spot and about 15' in the other bad spot. That is at least 3 trees from the top of each climb :shock: about 4 years ago I was up there and there were 3 schools with large groups TRing off of every tree in sight and I got pissed. I went back up the next week and hand drilled 3 sets of anchors. 3.5"X3/8" stainless drilled by hand in hard quartzite. since then I have added more top anchors all by hand. that is a lot of work and to think that some tool could destroy all that work in the name of preserving the enviornment or some twisted ethic is totaly maddening :twisted: By twisted ethic I mean an all or nothing ethic. You have to be flexible otherwise you end up being a suicide bomber :roll:
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pbjosh
May 20, 2005, 12:47 AM
Post #133 of 165
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In reply to: Local ethics should be respected. Local, as in cliff by cliff, area by area. Ayup. .... Does that mean 'no bolting in CT?' I can't say as I have no useful perspective on it. That notion would be ridiculous in these parts however. DMT
This seems to me to be the real issue, combined with one person being a bit out of touch with the times and having either a raging ego or a mental imbalance.
I tend to agree a little frontier justice would go a long way. That's they way Ken Nichols seems to play, no reason no to play the game his way. I tend to agree that in a big climbing community in the west someone like this would not be able to keep doing what he does, some sort of action would be taken.
josh
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healyje
May 20, 2005, 1:05 AM
Post #134 of 165
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In reply to: In reply to: Local ethics should be respected. Local, as in cliff by cliff, area by area. Ayup. .... Does that mean 'no bolting in CT?' I can't say as I have no useful perspective on it. That notion would be ridiculous in these parts however. DMT This seems to me to be the real issue, combined with one person being a bit out of touch with the times and having either a raging ego or a mental imbalance. I tend to agree a little frontier justice would go a long way. That's they way Ken Nichols seems to play, no reason no to play the game his way. I tend to agree that in a big climbing community in the west someone like this would not be able to keep doing what he does, some sort of action would be taken. josh
There's some conjecture here that is quite understandable given you folks are from out West. But things are quite different in the NE. As for "one person being a bit out of touch with the times" - this touches on a big part of the issues. Who says that local ethics need to change "with the times". Does that mean because most folks now sport that it's legitimate to bolt trad areas? That's what you are implying and I'd have to disagree.
In reply to: ...no reason no to play the game his way.
There is every reason not to play the game his way - that is precisely how the first NE bolt war spiralled out of control. I'd highly recommend not playing this game...
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tradmanclimbs
May 20, 2005, 1:20 AM
Post #135 of 165
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Healyj. the times have changed weather you or Ken like it or not :roll: that does not mean that sport climbs should be everywere and they are not. It does mean that there is a whole lot more trafic than there used to be. Erosion is our biggest issue and bolted lines pale in comparison to the dammage caused by foot trafic. In MNSHOP it is extremly un ethical to use trees as top anchors in this day and age where the local guide services & gyms turn out hoards of new climbers every season that know nothing other than top ropeing. It is the responsibility of the local climbing communitys to protect the enviornment at the top of their crags as well ast at the bottom and in many cases that means bolted anchors. Why is building stairs, water bars and trails less ofensive than bolted top anchors? Why don't you tools just go out and wreck some trails?
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mburke225
May 20, 2005, 2:00 AM
Post #136 of 165
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Healyje
I really hate to say this about anyone, but thru-out the thread you sound like Bill O'Rielly, first distorting a comment, than arguing something totally different, then getting aggravated when no one sees it your way. I don't like to ever drop the BOR on anybody, but if you read thru the thread, it's obvious.
God help us all if you think thats a compliment.
The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist
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eastvillage
May 20, 2005, 2:18 AM
Post #137 of 165
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" Your ethics are a load of a contradictory shit; more absuridites from an environmentalist whacko. "
You've been brainwashed by a load of right wing BS if you think the need to preserve our cliffs and open spaces makes one a wacko.
How can you be a climber and not care about the environemnt?
Grow up.
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dingus
May 20, 2005, 3:28 AM
Post #139 of 165
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In reply to: Who says that local ethics need to change "with the times".
The locals, mostly.
DMT
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philbox
Moderator
May 20, 2005, 4:45 AM
Post #140 of 165
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philbox moved this thread from US - East Coast to Moderators & Editors.
Ladies and gentlemen we shall have a short intermission whilst I clean this thread up. Any personal attacks and outright threatening behaviour shall be moved out of this thread and archived in the mods and eds forum.
It is not my intention to cripple this conversation, far be it, it is important to resolve these sorts of issues but we all need to do so in a civil manner.
Stand by.
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philbox
Moderator
May 20, 2005, 5:13 AM
Post #141 of 165
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Please discuss whether any of the posts within this thread should or should not be deleted. I believe that the death threat posts should be cut out and left here. This whole thread is virtually a personal attack. It has the whole climbing community upset though and it is a subject that should be discussed.
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climbsomething
May 20, 2005, 10:45 PM
Post #143 of 165
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If the death threats and threats of physical violence are in BVB's posts, I'd say you're taking him too seriously. He's full of bombast and rhetoric, but he's not a threat.
And I'm not sure the whole thread is a personal attack, although it is flamey. It's pretty intelligent for a flame thread, and it's not ad hominem, as far as I can tell. I suspect the charges against Nichols are substantially true; whether he chopped these particular bolts or not, he's infamous for chopping bolts elsewhere. This is a criticism of Nichols' general actions, which are known in the American/NE climbing culture.
But that's just my outsider opinion- I'm too young and too west coast to really have a perspective on this guy...
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philbox
Moderator
May 22, 2005, 9:39 PM
Post #144 of 165
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philbox moved this thread from Moderators & Editors to US - East Coast.
Back by popular demand. Please note that not one word has been deleted from this thread. Please keep the discussion civil though. Thank you for you understanding of the short absence of this thread. I hope that a resolution of the current bolt war can be worked out. We have the same sorts of issues crop up here in Oz from time to time. I do not envy the people who are in the middle of all of this.
Carry on.
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healyje
May 23, 2005, 4:18 AM
Post #145 of 165
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In reply to: In reply to: Who says that local ethics need to change "with the times". The locals, mostly. DMT
So Dingus, let's get specific - does that mean by your way of thinking that if the current trad folks at some trad area happen to move elsewhere and no new ones move in immediately that that area is now open for bolting...? Or the reverse, that a bunch of trad inclined folks move into an area vacated by sport climbers, are they free to restore the routes to a bolt free state...?
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kalcario
May 23, 2005, 4:38 AM
Post #146 of 165
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*Or the reverse, that a bunch of trad inclined folks move into an area vacated by sport climbers, are they free to restore the routes to a bolt free state...?*
I've always wondered why some of the more vehement anti-sport faction never put their money where their mouths are by chopping a tall, steep sport crag, and then climbing the routes without bolts. Or by developing a tall, overhanging, crackless crag without bolts in the first place, which seems to me to be the next logical step in advancing trad climbing standards.
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dingus
May 23, 2005, 5:20 AM
Post #147 of 165
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Who says that local ethics need to change "with the times". The locals, mostly. DMT So Dingus, let's get specific - does that mean by your way of thinking that if the current trad folks at some trad area happen to move elsewhere and no new ones move in immediately that that area is now open for bolting...? Or the reverse, that a bunch of trad inclined folks move into an area vacated by sport climbers, are they free to restore the routes to a bolt free state...?
Why must you endlessly parse? Why? If a cliff is forgotten for a thousand years yer damn right it is open for bolting!!! If people know route x went trad free then they shouldn't be retrobolting it. What's so hard about that? If you did a trad route and never told anyone about it, it doesn't exist!
But it means that the locals decide. The locals of the Meadows TODAY decide whether the styles of yesteryear are worth protecting, or not. Same as in Dresden. Same as at Rifle.
If the ethical police of yesteryear enforce their styles through intimidation and fear, well, it will be up to forthcoming generations to decide on the TOTALITY of their predecessors.
Involate rules, inflexible doctrine, etching rules once and forever in stone, are clearly not time tested techniques for getting future generations to toe the ethical line of the graybeards.
Some places may be best protected as perserves, like the Gunks. So be it.
The commodization of rock climbing, sure, I can dig it dude. Its happened and men like Whillans, Robbins, Chouinard, Bonatti, Charlet, Child, Krakauer, Long, Kennedy and a host of others helped to bring it on. Too late to cry about it now, its here.
IT'S HERE. The rise of the professional climber spelled this doom. There are thousands of climbers who want to be climbers as much or more than they actually want to climb. No matter what you say they will have their routes.
There should be islands of preservation. There should be the lawless west. And there should be a lot of inbetween, where respect for local tradition is tempered ever anew with the youth of here and now.
DMT
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golsen
May 23, 2005, 5:47 AM
Post #148 of 165
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dingus
In reply to: If you did a trad route and never told anyone about it, it doesn't exist!
In hte early 80's I did a couple new routes onsight sans pro. Scary but character building. In keeping with the times I told some close friends but nobody else. The routes got retrobolted and renamed. My bad. These guys didnt know anything about said routes and I liked their names better. Besides, they were hard enough with the bolts and nobody in their right mind was going to climb them the way I did. I checked the routes out but don't have any problem and as far as I can tell, the bolters didnt do anything that I would not have done once sport climbing became accepted.
dingus
In reply to: Involate rules, inflexible doctrine, etching rules once and forever in stone, are clearly not time tested techniques for getting future generations to toe the ethical line of the graybeards.
dingus
In reply to: There should be islands of preservation. There should be the lawless west. And there should be a lot of inbetween, where respect for local tradition is tempered ever anew with the youth of here and now. |
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healyje
May 23, 2005, 10:39 AM
Post #149 of 165
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In reply to: Why must you endlessly parse? Why? If a cliff is forgotten for a thousand years yer damn right it is open for bolting!!! If people know route x went trad free then they shouldn't be retrobolting it. What's so hard about that? If you did a trad route and never told anyone about it, it doesn't exist!
Dingus, why must you endlessly evade and generalized when asked to be specific. Why? At almost every turn when asked for specifics you run for the cover of generalization - you run the time span out 30 year or in this case a thousand; if talking about one area, you run it out to a hemisphere. Basically, you really aren't into giving straight, simple answers to direct questions.
In reply to: If people know route x went trad free then they shouldn't be retrobolting it. What's so hard about that?
Is that a baseline ethic from the mouth of Dingus? Do you believe in that statement? What if the ["lawless"] new crew doesn't happen to share the Dingus baseline ethic of no retro bolting? What then? My guess is from the logic in your post that your response would pretty much have to be "that's progress..."
In reply to: Some places may be best protected as perserves, like the Gunks. So be it.
So, by your reasoning, other than land under the express and active protection of an owner or government agency, it's all fair game; that if sport climbers now outnumber trad climbers in an area by any significant numbers then it's all fair game. Well, at least you acknowledge that's basically exactly what's happening around the country and that unfortunate reality is that the only way it is really ever stopped is by owner/government action.
In reply to: There should be islands of preservation. There should be the lawless west. And there should be a lot of inbetween, where respect for local tradition is tempered ever anew with the youth of here and now.
The problem with that rosy and nostalgic picture is the terms "lawless" and "tempered" should simply be replaced by "bolted" to get a better feel for the both the process and the future - with little middle ground between the preserved and the bolted.
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teamkonarider
May 23, 2005, 6:07 PM
Post #150 of 165
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Read Me
Hey hate to break it to you Ct climbers but there is one sport area in place in Ct and the re-bolting of a second (bear rock ridge will happen this july) The former is being kept quiet by the few who know where it is. But I can assure you Ken has never ever climbed here nor ever thought about climbing here.
I bolted in Ct but nothing was done that could have pissed off ken.
I actually support his mindset when it comes to keeping Ct bolt free. We dont have TR overuse issues. I think the people who are from out of state w/ the exception of the Mormon Hollow climbers should stay out of it unless you know what you are talking about.
I dont sympathize for Ken in the least but, having your favortie route beat with a hammer is just uncalled for. I went out this weekend to check on it and no further damage has been done. Someone needs to talk to Ken and find out what sparked this, he's been out of action since the 90's and somthing quite serious must have been done to make him chop.
As for Al Rubin and being livid I can see that. The Western Mass Climbers Associatoin should do somthing to open up a dialouge with Ken and his goons, because frankly the ethics in Ct need to be laid out and made clear, and no one myself included can/should move on with bolting in Ct or Mormon Hollow until things are made clear. What we dont need are people who dont know Ken or dont know/realize the beauty of Ct climbing and how horrible it would be to have this place become the next Rumney( for those of you who dont know it would be totally un-asthetic)
So please instead of having this slowly downward spiralling debate lets get constructive and get this resolved. Ethics of here and there can be dicussed to no end but if it doesnt relate to Ct it doesn't help
Read Me
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