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ddriver
Jun 28, 2005, 6:07 PM
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In reply to: Lets have a little poll. How solid would you consider this anchor? 2. The four quickdraws were used as extension since I used all slings on the route and the rope ran out.
As solid as the weakest link, which in this case may be the leader.
2. This is where the second simulclimbing with the leader until an adequate belay is reached is the likely appropriate course of action. You did know you could do that?
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csgambill
Jun 28, 2005, 6:14 PM
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[deleted - double post]
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rocloco
Jun 28, 2005, 6:14 PM
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I thought carabiner on carabiner is a huge no no because of potential triaxial loading!?
That anchor sucks either way just cause it has too many point of failure. Seems to me a cordellete or webbing equalized on just 1 biner at the hanger would be better than the multiple draws.
Doesn't look SRENE to me...
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csgambill
Jun 28, 2005, 6:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I would have equalized the bolt and the pine tree. I agree. If you clipped one of the draws on the pine tree (no need for a girth hitch, its small enough to just clip onto), then equalized, you'd have a bomber anchor. Pine tree = redundancy. Keep crankin' hard brother.
Betcha I could pull that tree out with my teeth.
As far as the anchor goes, I say you gotta do what you gotta do. Sometimes you have to be a little creative.
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cracknut
Jun 28, 2005, 6:30 PM
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This picture illustrates the limited utility of quick-draws for trad climbing. You might consider using tripled 24" runners instead. That way you can use them as QDs when they are tripled or extend them as circumstances dictate. A couple of runners girth hitched together would have stretched to the anchor (I'm assuming you had absolutely no rope left)
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bmxer
Jun 28, 2005, 6:32 PM
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best dam anchor I've ever seen.
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kimmyt
Jun 28, 2005, 6:39 PM
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Where was this taken?
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j_ung
Jun 28, 2005, 6:41 PM
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Where's a die-thread-die pic when you really need one? :lol:
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qwert
Jun 28, 2005, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: You're anchoring off one bolt. You know this is dumb, I know this is dumb, the noobs reading "Climbing Anchors" under the covers with a flashlight know this is dumb.
In most areas i climb, there is in 80% of the routes ONE bolt, for rappeling or belaying. as long as it is a beefy glue in, i dont see anything wrong with it.
I wonder how those people could climb in the old days :shock: they must have had diapers or something, so that they could climb with crapped pants, since they had no shinywhiny bolts and magic camadingy thingys and stuff the like. Just a man and a mountain (and a pack of diapers of course)
The quickdrqaw chain is of course rather sub-optimal, but it wont jump at you and rip the heart out of your living body.
qwert
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adnix
Jun 28, 2005, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: 2. This is where the second simulclimbing with the leader until an adequate belay is reached is the likely appropriate course of action. You did know you could do that? |
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vegastradguy
Jun 28, 2005, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: In most areas i climb, there is in 80% of the routes ONE bolt, for rappeling or belaying.
dude, where do you climb? i need to know so i can cross that off of places i want to climb at.
one bolt is not an anchor. period.
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ddriver
Jun 28, 2005, 7:04 PM
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In reply to: Why is using one bolt dumb? In most areas i climb, there is in 80% of the routes ONE bolt, for rappeling or belaying. as long as it is a beefy glue in, i dont see anything wrong with it. qwert
Sure, you can get away with single anchors for a long time and the odds of failure are tremendously low. For the individual use failure is no more likely than trying to win the lottery. However, when it does fail, the odds of serious injury are rather high.
I've been involved with bolt replacement projects and there are a number of ways they can fail, even a new one. Any bolt system has a recommended torque for tightening, just like in those your auto. Have you EVER seen anyone use a torque wrench when placing a bolt? If you overtighten you can weaken the bolt to the point of failure. Glue-ins are not necessarily any better. I worked in an adhesives lab once upon a time and know there are a lot of factors that can cause poor adhesion. Time is one. The point is, bolts should be considered an unknown quantity except by the person who placed them. That's why they should be used redundantly.
Back to my earlier point. This post might be a troll, but I've watched any number of climbers who, when the rope runs out, don't even think of simulclimbing. That is obviously the answer here, because the leader isn't at the belay in the first place.
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jt512
Jun 28, 2005, 7:05 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In most areas i climb, there is in 80% of the routes ONE bolt, for rappeling or belaying. dude, where do you climb?
Europe. Different philosophy.
-Jay
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ddriver
Jun 28, 2005, 7:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 2. This is where the second simulclimbing with the leader until an adequate belay is reached is the likely appropriate course of action. You did know you could do that? I had some 20 meter runout before the stand. I didn't like the idea of holding my second falling on the 5.9 offwith crux right after the start of the pitch. Good idea, though.
Sorry your response wasn't up when I last posted. So this isn't a troll, but I don't understand your response. You had a 20-m runout getting to the belay shown? If that's the case then your belay is even worse, because its failure sends you maybe 40 meters. I guess the critical point is the second climbing the crux right off the ground. If that's the case you probably made the right choice, you have to judge the relative risks, and that includes potential anchor loading from a fall on the next pitch. What I have to wonder is whether you made it to the correct belay stance. Some routes these days have 60-m pitches, and sometimes there aren't good choices.
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ddriver
Jun 28, 2005, 7:18 PM
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double post - server funkness
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gunkiemike
Jun 28, 2005, 7:24 PM
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I count 13 potential points of failure, any one of which would cause the belayer to be pulled down the face. 13...how appropriate for this death anchor.
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qwert
Jun 28, 2005, 7:26 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In most areas i climb, there is in 80% of the routes ONE bolt, for rappeling or belaying. dude, where do you climb? Europe. Different philosophy. -Jay
Its kust very common to fin one bolt, as belay point, and its not just like this in one area. I have seen this from germany to france and italy, and it seems accepted as save. If there are to bolts, i gladly clip both, but if it seems solid, i dont fear for my live on one. Im much more affraid of being über safe, and therefore slow, wich will get my ass caught by for example a thunderstorm, if im on somthing big.
qwert
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jt512
Jun 28, 2005, 7:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In most areas i climb, there is in 80% of the routes ONE bolt, for rappeling or belaying. dude, where do you climb? Europe. Different philosophy. -Jay deffinitely. Its kust very common to fin one bolt, as belay point...
As you might know, in the US, two bolts is the standard sport route anchor. To set up a top rope, most US climbers use one quickdraw on each bolt, which provides redundancy in case any part of the anchor fails. I know that in Europe 1-bolt sport anchors are common, and I wonder whether you rely solely on this bolt when setting up to TR a sport route. Do you also run the rope through the last en-route bolt? If not, do use locking biners on the draw attached to the 1-bolt anchor?
-Jay
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billcoe_
Jun 28, 2005, 7:36 PM
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I'll bite. weak troll but here ya go.
It's bad Adnix. Bad.
You asked.
Not horrible mind you, I'm sure it's plenty strong for your purposes.
I've belayed off of worse. Much worse, horrible in fact. Never on an established route though, thats just bad planning on your part no?
To me, you appear to have chosen to make it weaker. See trenchdiggers earlier reply as he nailed it for me. If you choose to enchain non-locking biners, they can will and do unclip if they are twisted accidentally. Nobody can see the stance, but it appears you are standing instead of sitting as well. Should have clipped the rope directly to a single locker on the bolt and pulled like what, 7 weaker links out of your belay chain?
People do belay on 1 bolt or pin in the Alps. Common. Not the way you did though. They usually have good stances as well. If you look at how many people die in the Alps yearly, it's not encouraging.
Sometime you have to do it, sometimes you don't.
But weren't you also the one who had the pic of a labordor with a carabiner clipped to his collar and you posing the identical question then on the efficacy of that anchor? :lol:
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qwert
Jun 28, 2005, 7:39 PM
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Most people use something called a "locking caribiner" over here. Its just like a normal biner, but it has something that you can screw close, so that it wont open accidentially :D
Or you clip two QDs oposed to another. also most people leave the last bolt under the anchor clipped, when toproping, so a some redundancy is present. When setting up a toprope, you have to be clipped to the last bolt (to what else?).
qwert
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billcoe_
Jun 28, 2005, 7:39 PM
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Clip the dog.
Solid.
Absolutely.
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flipnfall
Jun 28, 2005, 7:39 PM
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Reminds me of an anchor on the Yellow Spur in Eldorado Canyon.
GT
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adnix
Jun 28, 2005, 9:54 PM
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In reply to: Do you also run the rope through the last en-route bolt? If not, do use locking biners on the draw attached to the 1-bolt anchor?
I'd consider the one bolt anchor much more secure than what I found on Corsica. Here's a picture, the bolts were placed in 1975. After the route I had to rappel using the brown ring. I remember my sphincter was quite tight when I put my weight on the rope.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=45518
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rocloco
Jun 28, 2005, 10:06 PM
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To me that looks better, but woulda equalized on biners from all 3 hangers not just 2 with the back up. What the hell do I know though. Obviously it worked for you no problem.
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