|
rocloco
Jun 30, 2005, 6:12 PM
Post #76 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 18, 2004
Posts: 152
|
I carry a cordellette with me at all times. Even when I'm not climbing. My "keychain" is 5mm spectra. Only 2ft. but still...
If not having one (cordellette) is the best reason for not using one...then maybe you ought to take a quick tour of the net as plenty of retailers are willing to let them go (brand new) at very affordable rates. It's not like we're talking about a set of cams here. They're very cheap, light, and extremely useful for oh so many things. Other than my rope it's definitely the single most used piece of gear I own. Well, my shoes too.
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Jun 30, 2005, 7:47 PM
Post #77 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
Thanks Adnix, great info. I think America suffers from being less organized than Germany. Unfortunatly, the person inspecting each bolt in the US is the climber when he/she is staring it in the face. And almost all climbers around here are too cheap to install such fine bolts as you show. Petzl shows drilling stright in for thier product, but one of them tests to 50KN. Certainly at 35kn and installed even poorly, that fixe would outlast any carabiner clipped to it.
Do anchors Never fail in Germany because of the DAV inspections you mentioned?
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Jun 30, 2005, 7:51 PM
Post #78 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: So, what you are saying is that the current recommendation is to belay the leader directly off the anchor?
Let's assume most bolt hangers take two carabiners (CE-norm requires this). If you clip the ATC above and clove hitch yourself below, you could think the system as an extended ATC with the advantage of no body lifting and no slamm effect if the leader falls. If the worst case happens and the bolt rips, you'll be hanging in the void with "normal" body belay.
|
|
|
|
|
crimpandgo
Jun 30, 2005, 8:07 PM
Post #79 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 1005
|
In reply to: In reply to: So, what you are saying is that the current recommendation is to belay the leader directly off the anchor? If the anchor seems normal and there is no special reason to question it, the answer is yes. Let's assume most bolt hangers take two carabiners (CE-norm requires this). If you clip the ATC above and clove hitch yourself below, you could think the system as an extended ATC with the advantage of no body lifting and no slamm effect if the leader falls. If the worst case happens and the bolt rips, you'll be hanging in the void with "normal" body belay.
What do you mean by hanging in the void with "normal" belay?
If the bolt rips won't both you and climber go to the ground?
are you anchored to another bolt I assume like the picture you posted above?
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Jun 30, 2005, 8:09 PM
Post #80 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: And almost all climbers around here are too cheap to install such fine bolts as you show... Do anchors Never fail in Germany because of the DAV inspections you mentioned?
In Germany and France bolts are in generally in pretty good condition. But if you go to Spain, you'll see more varied stuff. I haven't heard of glue-in bolts failing but I've seen big rocks with glue-in bolts falling during winter. I would advise to use common sense.
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Jun 30, 2005, 8:21 PM
Post #81 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: If the bolt rips won't both you and climber go to the ground?
If you're really interested in this, the pictures on DAV Panorama 5/2002 should clarify some questions. Have a look at the link:
http://www.alpenverein.de/...er.php?tplpage_id=85
|
|
|
|
|
crotch
Jun 30, 2005, 9:13 PM
Post #82 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2003
Posts: 1277
|
In reply to: Let's assume most bolt hangers take two carabiners (CE-norm requires this). If you clip the ATC above and clove hitch yourself below, you could think the system as an extended ATC with the advantage of no body lifting and no slamm effect if the leader falls. If the worst case happens and the bolt rips, you'll be hanging in the void with "normal" body belay.
You've now made it much more difficult to effect a self-rescue by placing a loaded biner (ATC) on top of your tie-in biner.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jun 30, 2005, 9:17 PM
Post #83 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: So, what you are saying is that the current recommendation is to belay the leader directly off the anchor? If the anchor seems normal and there is no special reason to question it, the answer is yes. Let's assume most bolt hangers take two carabiners (CE-norm requires this). If you clip the ATC above and clove hitch yourself below, you could think the system as an extended ATC with the advantage of no body lifting and no slamm effect if the leader falls. If the worst case happens and the bolt rips, you'll be hanging in the void with "normal" body belay.
The trouble is that the first bolt failing isn't even remotely the worst-case scenario. The worst-case scenario is that the first bolt fails, resulting in the second bolt being shock loaded, causing it to fail, and both partners fall to their deaths.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Jun 30, 2005, 9:50 PM
Post #84 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
In reply to: The two problems with glue-in stuff are that they are b---- to place on overhanging stuff since they take some time to dry.
I think removal is also a problem with glue-ins. Eventually, they will need to be replaced, especially if people are lowering or TRing directly from them. You can't simply pull them and re-use the hole. Chopping them and patching the rock sucks.
I think the ultimate bolts are 1/2 SS expansion sleeve bolts, like the Rawl 5 piece (power bolt) or similar. The exceptions are very soft rock or marine environments (titanium bolts), where glue-ins should be the rule. An expansion sleeve bolt can be easily removed and the hole reused. A 1/2 inch mechanical bolt is more than plenty strong, and, in my opinion, difficult to screw-up when placing.
It's great that glue-ins can be rated for 35 kn, or whatever, but talk about over kill. At some point there are other considerations than just strength.
I think a reasonable argument can be made that if you are using a single bolt anchor a fat mechanical bolt is safer. I think this because glue-ins are easier to screw-up and will give no indication of being problematic until they fail.
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Jun 30, 2005, 11:23 PM
Post #85 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
People are downright gullable on this site.
Anyone that carries toy biners is a fool.
All of the hardware in the photos looks American, not euro.
What's up with people thinking you can use a glue in on a ground up FA???
So back to the OP anchor. He describes a climb with an offwidth and runnout 20 meter chimney culminating in a rap placed single bolt anchor. That makes sense??? Not.
As for Largo and his cordellete advice. Largo pretty much never carried a cordelette when I knew him. Mainly at a number of bolted slab crags.
For some reason, experience seems to be equated with stupitidy on this site. That and everyone comes off as being a sport gumbie trad at heart. The bullshit is being spread pretty thick around here.
Why is that?
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jun 30, 2005, 11:33 PM
Post #86 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
All I can add is this. I sure wish that everytime I had to get creative and build a useable anchor with whatever remained on my rack, there was a nice 30kN bolt nearby. :wink:
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
mountainmonkey
Jun 30, 2005, 11:42 PM
Post #87 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 474
|
.
The biggest advantage glue-in bolts have over mechanical bolts (even SS) is that they are not as prone to Stress Corrosion Cracking. Since the glue-ins are not preloaded (i.e. 20 ft-lbs of torque), there is no constant stress on the steel. Whereas SCC is usually a problem well acknowledged in seaside cliffs, it is a problem anywhere outdoors, even in the "dry" climate of Colorado. Mechanical bolts will fail well under the rated load when SCC has taken hold, and there will be little or no evidence of rust. Stainless glue-ins are subjected to rust corrosion, and the subsequent weakening of the material, but not to SCC like mechanical bolts are.
It is possible to place a glue-in bolt on a route that was done ground up. Drill a 12mm hole, place a Fixe Triplex bolt with a hanger, and later remove the Triplex bolt and place the glue-in in the same hole.
.
|
|
|
|
|
vivalargo
Jul 1, 2005, 3:21 AM
Post #88 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 1512
|
In reply to: People are downright gullable on this site. Anyone that carries toy biners is a fool. All of the hardware in the photos looks American, not euro. What's up with people thinking you can use a glue in on a ground up FA??? So back to the OP anchor. He describes a climb with an offwidth and runnout 20 meter chimney culminating in a rap placed single bolt anchor. That makes sense??? Not. As for Largo and his cordellete advice. Largo pretty much never carried a cordelette when I knew him. Mainly at a number of bolted slab crags.
That must have been about 50 years ago, smarty pants. Half of the time we used to fiddle around on bolted slabs we didn't even use a rope, which ain't exactly textbook technique, but don't hold me to it.
Anyhow, I reserve the right to update my technique when something comes along worth using--re: a coredllette. But it's not essential gear, just handy.
JL
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jul 1, 2005, 3:32 AM
Post #89 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
In reply to: In reply to: People are downright gullable on this site. Anyone that carries toy biners is a fool. All of the hardware in the photos looks American, not euro. What's up with people thinking you can use a glue in on a ground up FA??? So back to the OP anchor. He describes a climb with an offwidth and runnout 20 meter chimney culminating in a rap placed single bolt anchor. That makes sense??? Not. As for Largo and his cordellete advice. Largo pretty much never carried a cordelette when I knew him. Mainly at a number of bolted slab crags. That must have been about 50 years ago, smarty pants. Half of the time we used to fiddle around on bolted slabs we didn't even use a rope, which ain't exactly textbook technique, but don't hold me to it. Anyhow, I reserve the right to update my technique when something comes along worth using--re: a coredllette. But it's not essential gear, just handy. JL
Which slabs? Just wondering. There's one in NC that you might as well not use a rope for, it only has one bolt.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jul 1, 2005, 3:33 AM
Post #90 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
Yeah, smarty pants. Oh, and Dan, some asshole has gotten ahold of your user ID and password and is posting assholish things as you. 8^)
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Jul 1, 2005, 8:00 AM
Post #91 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: The worst-case scenario is that the first bolt fails, resulting in the second bolt being shock loaded, causing it to fail, and both partners fall to their deaths. |
|
|
|
|
adnix
Jul 1, 2005, 8:06 AM
Post #92 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: A 1/2 inch mechanical bolt is more than plenty strong, and, in my opinion, difficult to screw-up when placing. |
|
|
|
|
adnix
Jul 1, 2005, 8:11 AM
Post #93 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: You've now made it much more difficult to effect a self-rescue by placing a loaded biner (ATC) on top of your tie-in biner. |
|
|
|
|
adnix
Jul 1, 2005, 8:34 AM
Post #94 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: So back to the OP anchor. He describes a climb with an offwidth and runnout 20 meter chimney culminating in a rap placed single bolt anchor. That makes sense??? Not. |
|
|
|
|
qwert
Jul 1, 2005, 10:22 AM
Post #96 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2004
Posts: 2394
|
I dont think that a mechanical bolt is easyer to place than a glue in.
Who carries a torque wrench? With a glue in, you normally have everything with you you need, since it is essential for placing the bolt. It requires much more gear, and therefore it costs a lot more, so that most bolts are only placed by people who do that regularly and who know what thei are doing.
A five piece however can be placed by any psycho who can drill a hole and stuff the bolt in it, totally over- or underthightened and wait for it to corrode.
Apart from alpine stuff, whre you drill on lead, those bolts arent hardly used anymore, and getting replaced, by safe glue ins.
qwert
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Jul 1, 2005, 12:18 PM
Post #97 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: That problem can be alleviated by placing a piece to counteract an upward pull. A cordellete does not preclude placing such a piece.
Ie. the options are having a long cordalette system or short direct-belay system. Similarly, on trad (body) belay you don't need counteracting piece if you sit low enough.
|
|
|
|
|
crotch
Jul 1, 2005, 1:57 PM
Post #98 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 16, 2003
Posts: 1277
|
In reply to: In reply to: You've now made it much more difficult to effect a self-rescue by placing a loaded biner (ATC) on top of your tie-in biner. I'd say I can start rescue within 10 seconds. I just add one mule knot to the ATC and I've escaped the belay.
No, all you've done is tied off the climber. You now have a biner loaded with bodyweight trapping your tie-in biner in the bolt hanger. Escaping that will require that you get the climbers weight off the bolt.
It would be easier if you put the ATC biner BELOW your tie-in biner.
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Jul 1, 2005, 2:43 PM
Post #99 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: No, all you've done is tied off the climber. You now have a biner loaded with bodyweight trapping your tie-in biner in the bolt hanger. |
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 1, 2005, 3:24 PM
Post #100 of 120
(12423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Yeah, smarty pants. Oh, and Dan, some asshole has gotten ahold of your user ID and password and is posting assholish things as you. 8^) Curt
And whoever he is, he needs to recalibrate his Troll-O-Matic (TM) meter with an eye toward reducing its rate of false positives.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
|
