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tattooed_climber
Aug 16, 2005, 12:26 AM
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this thread will probably end up in the aid forum
from my understanding, its a must do in aid (which i ussual do clove hitches) and not so much for trad (obvious), but i;ve seen other dudes do it.
i've seen other solo-ers do fig-8s and lots of other scazy shit (and nothing at the same time; no tie-offs anywhere)....i've been self teaching myself roped-soloing (just been aiding 5.8 to 10d cracks)...i've been clove hitching every peice of pro, but sometimes i get some wicked cross loading action (having slack between the 2nd and 3nd peices below myself when i'm tying off the next one)
so whats everyones thoughts on this, or some better recomendations?
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asandh
Aug 16, 2005, 12:42 AM
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:)
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tattooed_climber
Aug 16, 2005, 1:07 AM
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if you actually READ my post you've noticed that i only do this for aid....so far i've ropesoloed only 3 trad lines...
as for aid, if you're on a A1 or A2 and your gear is solid, no worries about shit ripping out, and if you clove hitch to pro, it also acts like a daisy making you more efficient.....NOW, that's my understanding of tying off pro...
i scrolled through 5 pages of your posts and since 90% if not more of those pages you complete posts are smiley faces, i have to ask about your credibility. :roll:
don't say how to rope solo...i know that shit.....the topic is tying off pro....don't highjack and ramble off topic
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jbell2355
Aug 16, 2005, 1:32 AM
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I've only ever rope soloed one trad pitch and have never aid climbed, but I thought I understood how rope-soloing worked. Your post makes me second-guess my understanding. There seems to be only disadvantages in tying off pieces. Why would you do it?
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andy_reagan
Aug 16, 2005, 1:43 AM
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Why do you think you need to do this? I'm having a hard time finding any positives to this idea but like previous poster have found one blatantly obvious downfall.
In the spirit of this thread, a emoticon: :wtf:
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greenketch
Aug 16, 2005, 1:52 AM
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I am not quite following your process either. If asandh is correct then I agree. You should build a bomber anchor at the bottom. and run your rope just like normal. I sometimes tie in every third or fourth piece as the weight of the rope pulls too much slack into your system. But at the very least if you are ties into everypiece any fall can be an owfull stiff catch. At the worst they are factor two falls and gear starts to fail or get beat up.
What sort of sytem are you using in your soloing?
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asandh
Aug 16, 2005, 2:51 AM
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:)
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foxtrotuniform
Aug 16, 2005, 3:23 AM
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There are a couple of fundamental problems with what you are doing.
First off, why are you tying off pro? Why is it necessary? The only legitimate reason is to keep the slack from running through your belay device under the weight of the lead rope under you. This is generally solved by tying off to a couple of pieces higher up on the pitches once this becomes a factor.
Another way is to use a prussik on a long sling from a piece of pro to the rope. A long prusik allows the rope to move a considerable ammount and avoid the factor two fall issue.
Tying off every piece? I have no idea why you would ever do this. I have no idea what you mean by "it acts like a daisy".
In reply to: as for aid, if you're on a A1 or A2 and your gear is solid, no worries about s--- ripping out,
Factor two falls are a MAJOR consern no matter what the situation. They are bad for your rope, stress your gear to the absolute MAX. And they can hurt YOU.
The fact that you don't know this makes me really question your next statement.
In reply to: don't say how to rope solo...i know that s---.....
Yeah, sure. Whatever you say.
And way to go jumping down the throat of the guy who tried to help you. You're up to a tool factor 10 there chief.
So on that note feel free to bring on the flames. Crashing airliners and Meteors both flame before they crater. I don't see why climbers are any different.
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vegastradguy
Aug 16, 2005, 3:24 AM
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the only aid soloing i've ever done has involved a bomber anchor for upward directional with the end of the rope fixed to that and then my line running through pro to me.
cant say i've ever heard of cloving off to every piece...
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herm
Aug 16, 2005, 3:30 AM
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Like GC said, once in a while to manage slack. I typically CH the first piece, to keep the anchor oriented, and then just often enough to keep slack from slithering back down the system, generally to redundant peices in easy sections. Hitching a piece concentrates the load of the fall onto the terminal section of rope above the knot; the more rope to catch the fall, the softer it will be. Hitching manky gear to protect hard moves would be a bad idea.
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tattooed_climber
Aug 16, 2005, 3:43 AM
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meh, should have posted in aid.....
flame?hope my words aren't too out of context, sorry if they are...
lots of people i bump into, when taking about solo aiding, like to tie off...
k i FULLY understand about fall factors and blah blah blah, but i'm talkin aiding on SOLID granite cracks here (and keep in mind i'm a traddie who isn't pounding pins or heads or hooking on these climbs)...how long can you fall if a piece you're standing on blows?(afew feet) and the placements are just as solid as trad (i make all placements bomber, no point in only placeing body weight stuff).....
as for the daisy part i should have said 'adjustable daisy'......plug pro, clove rope, and haul self up..
btw i'm just using a gri gri and a chest/seat harness setup
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wonderbread
Aug 16, 2005, 3:47 AM
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I've soloed enough walls to let you know that you should definitely not clove hitch every piece. In fact you should not clove hitch any piece other than perhaps the first one after the anchor in order to keep your anchor oriented correctly. This does not matter whether you are on A1 or A5, don't clove hitch your rope to pieces as you ascend, for the obvious high fall factor reasons stated above, regardless of the difficulty. If you are concerned about the rope slipping through your belay device, scan the aid forum, there is lots of info there. I prefer prusiks for this, other use rubber bands and what not. But you should emphatically not clove hitch each piece, or even every third or fourth as you climb, if you can not grasp this, and the obvious reasons why, you should not be aid soloing. Cheers.
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wormly81
Aug 16, 2005, 3:54 AM
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Personally, I think you should relax and take the advice you ASKED for when you started this thread.
Jeff
PS. Statements like "how long can you fall if a piece you're standing on blows?(afew feet) and the placements are just as solid as trad (i make all placements bomber, no point in only placeing body height stuff)..... " show that you DONT "FULLY understand about {the significance of} fall factors"
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curt
Aug 16, 2005, 3:57 AM
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In reply to: meh, should have posted in aid..... flame?hope my words aren't too out of context, sorry if they are... lots of people i bump into, when taking about solo aiding, like to tie off... k i FULLY understand about fall factors and blah blah blah, but i'm talkin aiding on SOLID granite cracks here (and keep in mind i'm a traddie who isn't pounding pins or heads or hooking on these climbs)...how long can you fall if a piece you're standing on blows?(afew feet) and the placements are just as solid as trad (i make all placements bomber, no point in only placeing body height stuff)..... as for the daisy part i should have said 'adjustable daisy'......plug pro, clove rope, and haul self up.. btw i'm just using a gri gri and a chest/seat harness setup
You're not one of those people here who ignore the correct answers to their initial questions, are you?
In reply to: from my understanding, its a must do in aid (which i ussual do clove hitches) and not so much for trad (obvious), but i;ve seen other dudes do it....... so whats everyones thoughts on this, or some better recomendations?
You've now got much better information than you had initially. Please don't continue to insist that your current unsafe practices are OK. OK?
Curt
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fear
Aug 16, 2005, 4:08 AM
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In reply to: ....i've been self teaching myself roped-soloing (just been aiding 5.8 to 10d cracks)...i've been clove hitching every peice of pro....... so whats everyones thoughts on this, or some better recomendations?
Yeah, as long as you don't fall you'll never have a problem with that setup.
I think this might just be a very elegant troll... If so.. Bravo!
-Fear
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tattooed_climber
Aug 16, 2005, 4:14 AM
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i'm not insisting they are ok...thats why i started this thread..and i know what a fall factor is....
germ, thanks for the straight forward post, thats was what i wanted to hear...and to the rest of you guys though you may want to slap me around for this thread......
k, in retrospect, i may have been mislead by other climbers about tie-offs but i understand now why they did as many tie offs as they did (shit like zombie-roof in the smoke bluffs).....i was just lead to believe they are the thing to do for aid.....though curt may want to duke it out for the zero tie offs...
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epic_ed
Aug 16, 2005, 5:07 AM
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No, dude, you absolutely don't tie off each piece, no matter how bomber your gear.
To solo aid you must have a bomber anchor and a reliable self-belaying device. I use a gri gri; there are a multitude of other options including using a clove hitch to self belay. But you don't use a knot or clove hitch on each piece to create a safety chain. Seriously -- every fall is a factor 2 if you do it this way, and I don't give a fuck who you saw doing it that way -- they we doing it dangerously. In addition to the danger of ripping gear, you're gonna wrench your body. The greater the fall factor, the more likely you are to pancake if you cross load the biner on your belay device.
Some who solo aid will clove hitch a bomber piece and then put a screamer on it to keep the weight of the rope from introducing too much slack into the system, but there are better ways to prevent that, too. I used to do the clove hitch stuff, but then I took a nice fall. It was only about 10 feet, and the pin held, but I wrenched my back something serious. Never again. I now use heavy duty rubber bands to "rebelay" the rope (thanks, Kate). They will break in a fall, allowing the rope and entirely safety system to work as it's supposed to, but will hold the rope in place and keep it from pulling slack down toward the anchor.
Bomber anchor; reliable belay device; all the gear in between you and the anchor you treat just like you would if you were leading with a partner.
Ed
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epic_ed
Aug 16, 2005, 5:13 AM
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epic_ed moved this thread from General to Aid Climbing.
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healyje
Aug 16, 2005, 5:48 AM
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Wonderland and Epic_Ed have it right - read their responses.
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decaf
Aug 16, 2005, 6:43 AM
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I maybe semi hijacking a thread here, but Ed could explain the rebelay setup a little more? I saw a prussik mentioned earlier was wondering if it was similar
Thanks
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ricardol
Aug 16, 2005, 8:53 AM
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thank god a few people chimed in who actually HAVE experience in leading solo aid pitches...
(it cracks me up when someone posts a response.. and start their post by saying .. "I've never done this before.. or I've only done 1 pitch" .. ) .. if you have limited experience .. chill and learn ..
.. Ed. question for you -- do you feel your rope gets more wear since you loose the ability to rebelay the rope at mid pitch by using the rubber bands .. (i've rebelayed below sharp rock in order to avoid jugging on a sharp edge) ..
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
No matter what the aid rating -- YOU NEVER hitch your lead line to every piece. You may hitch the first few pieces if there is not anchor to be built at the bottom of a climb (ie. 1st pitch of zodiac -- starts on 3 bolts, you can figure eight the 1st, then clove the next 2 for an anchor!) ..
.. you then rebelay your rope when solo aiding so that it doesn't weigh down, and feed through your belay device. (creating slack) ..
there are several methods ..
1 - Clove hitch -- or Figure eight. to a bomber piece ..
i only do this when the bomber piece is a bolt.
2 - Use a long prussik. You attach the prussik to the rope pull the slack out of the rope (this IS important) .. and attach the prussik to a piece.
I usually only do this on cams.
3 - the kate rubber band method -- prussik a rubber band to the rope, attach rubber band to piece. If you fall the rubber band will break. -
I've never used this method.
=======================
There are several things to be aware of.. if you use prussiks, they must be long enough so that if you fall, the prussik will no be the one holding the fall.. it could kill you.
I carry about 3 or 4 long prussiks on a wall .. usually a pitch will need only 1 rebelay -- if the pitch is long, or wandering, you might need 2 ..
========================
one more thing -- if you rebelay your line to EVERY piece on a pitch, its going to be a PITA to clean .. why would you do that to yourself.
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beesty511
Aug 16, 2005, 9:25 AM
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In reply to: i've been self teaching myself roped-soloing (just been aiding 5.8 to 10d cracks)...i've been clove hitching every peice of pro, but sometimes i get some wicked cross loading action (having slack between the 2nd and 3nd peices below myself when i'm tying off the next one) so whats everyones thoughts on this, or some better recomendations?
The truth of the matter is if you continue to rope solo, you are going to die. If rope soloing is too alluring for you in spite of that warning, then you should sit down with your family, friends, and significant other and make decisions with respect to organ donation, a living will, life insurance, and your final will and testament.
In reply to: k i FULLY understand about fall factors and blah blah blah
The dead only know one thing: it's better to be alive.
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reg
Aug 16, 2005, 12:49 PM
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my reply is more of a question. i know very little about aid or roped solo climbing but if you tie off a piece, would'nt that piece have to be oriented for upwards pull?
but, your placing them as you go up - for downward pull - protecting your fall - then you fall but you've tied the rope to them - yankin them up and out?!? am i missing something?
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yetanotherdave
Aug 16, 2005, 1:32 PM
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In reply to: 2 - Use a long prussik. You attach the prussik to the rope pull the slack out of the rope (this IS important) .. and attach the prussik to a piece. I usually only do this on cams.
I've seen this a few times, and solo-aided using prussiks to rebelay, but no-one seems to quantify 'long'. I know from experience that 2M is NOT long enough (and I have the melted prussik cord to remind me : ) How long are the prussiks people use for this?
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tradclimbinfool
Aug 16, 2005, 1:45 PM
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In reply to: k i FULLY understand about fall factors and blah blah blah, but i'm talkin aiding on SOLID granite cracks here (and keep in mind i'm a traddie who isn't pounding pins or heads or hooking on these climbs)...how long can you fall if a piece you're standing on blows?(afew feet) and the placements are just as solid as trad (i make all placements bomber, no point in only placeing body weight stuff).....
If all of your pieces are so bomber, why not do away with the belay rope altogether? (please note sarcasm!) Through your techniques you've basically negated the belay anyway.
Please educate yourself about these issues! To continue on in ignorance will evenutally get you hurt or worse.
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epic_ed
Aug 16, 2005, 1:51 PM
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Ricardo! Good to hear from you, bro. You getting ready to go crank another route?
I do still rebelay with a long prussik when necessary and practical. I just don't make a habit out of it for the sole purpose of holding the weight of the rope. But if there's a sharp edge or flake, you betcha I'm going to rebelay with that long prussik. Definitely not a clove hitch, though.
It's a trade off, like everything else. You make decisions based upon what works best in each scenario, and go with what you think will protect you the best.
Ed
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berkov
Aug 16, 2005, 2:11 PM
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Tattoo if I understand you right the only reason you tie into each piece is so you can use the rope like a daisy stop it and go buy some from Yates I like their wall ladders too all not too expensive
check out the manual for the silent partner it has the basics you can find it on the wren web site
and the falcon book climb on has some good tips in it
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trenchdigger
Aug 16, 2005, 2:58 PM
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In reply to: if you actually READ my post you've noticed that i only do this for aid....so far i've ropesoloed only 3 trad lines... as for aid, if you're on a A1 or A2 and your gear is solid, no worries about s--- ripping out, and if you clove hitch to pro, it also acts like a daisy making you more efficient.....NOW, that's my understanding of tying off pro... i scrolled through 5 pages of your posts and since 90% if not more of those pages you complete posts are smiley faces, i have to ask about your credibility. :roll: don't say how to rope solo...i know that s---.....the topic is tying off pro....don't highjack and ramble off topic
A factor 2 fall is a factor 2 fall.
Period.
Most people have never even seen a factor 1 fall. And if you're climbing safely, you shouldn't.
You're climbing in a manner that makes every fall a factor 2 fall!
I strongly encourage you to heed the warnings here and think about how important your life is to you.
Asandh's credibility need not be questioned. He's probably been climbing longer than you've been alive. And at this rate, he'll be climbing long after your dead.
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texplorer
Aug 16, 2005, 4:49 PM
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Maybe Tatoo should clove into every piece. . . .
. . . and maybe the rangers in the valley will let you sleep in your car in the meadow.
My question is why in the hell are you aiding stuff where every placement is bomber? People aid to get up hard stuff.
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cfnubbler
Aug 16, 2005, 4:55 PM
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Quick, somebody call the Darwin awards....maybe there's a "stubborn pigheadedness as a contributing factor" category.
-Nubbler
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ricardol
Aug 16, 2005, 5:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 2 - Use a long prussik. You attach the prussik to the rope pull the slack out of the rope (this IS important) .. and attach the prussik to a piece. I usually only do this on cams. I've seen this a few times, and solo-aided using prussiks to rebelay, but no-one seems to quantify 'long'. I know from experience that 2M is NOT long enough (and I have the melted prussik cord to remind me : ) How long are the prussiks people use for this?
My rebelay prussiks are a 6' long piece of 5mm cord. tied into a loop. I have fallen on this setup, and the prussik did not engage while catching the fall.
you MUST take out all the slack out of the line.
1. attach prussik to lead line.
2. put lead line through carabiner on piece
3. put prussik cord through carabiner on piece
4. pull out slack no lead line leading up to the prussik. (you dont need it super tight - but you dont want slack).
the reason for taking out the slack, is to minimize the ammount of rope that will run through this piece when a fall is arrested. you want only rope stretch to run through the biner.
=====================
to answer someone else's question. -- yes you want the rebelay piece to be bi-directional if you are tying off (clove hitch) the piece --- thats why bolts are great. --
there is a good article on this on pete's index ...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=2062&forum=40&start=0
BTW -- pete's index is no longer accessible from his profile -- you have to search for it.
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epic_ed
Aug 16, 2005, 5:09 PM
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In reply to: BTW -- pete's index is no longer accessible from his profile -- you have to search for it.
Assuming it's OK with Pete, I see if I can fix that. I'll give it a bump in the meantime. Good info in that index regardless of what you think of the guy or his "style" (on the rock or in writing).
Ed
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ricardol
Aug 16, 2005, 5:10 PM
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In reply to: Ricardo! Good to hear from you, bro. You getting ready to go crank another route? I do still rebelay with a long prussik when necessary and practical. I just don't make a habit out of it for the sole purpose of holding the weight of the rope. But if there's a sharp edge or flake, you betcha I'm going to rebelay with that long prussik. Definitely not a clove hitch, though. It's a trade off, like everything else. You make decisions based upon what works best in each scenario, and go with what you think will protect you the best. Ed
.. cool .. i do the same .. if the pitch is full of bomber gear (bolt ladder) then i'll just clove hitch (faster to setup)..
.. if its a bunch of cams .. i'll prussik rebelay ..
.. if its alot of hard placements .. then i'll just suck it up .. and not rebelay. -- i guess rubber bands would help here.
ed.. if you check out my line of questions on supertopo you'll see what i have my sights on this season .. -- will be a fun fall season. -- I'm also teaming up with a partner to go for WFLT in a push in 2 weeks. (1st time to do a push ascent..) ..
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stymingersfink
Aug 19, 2005, 10:32 PM
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note to self: three posts into this thread i've already decided to pass on any opportunities to climb with this person. If they placed nearly as much gear as they post, they would realize the foolishness of clove-hitching every piece of pro. True, there is a time and a place for such things, but these are very situational.
Daisy chains are inherently not safe when shock loaded, expecially factor 2 falls. They are a work positioning device, not a fall-arrestor device.
Should I even bother reading the rest of this thread?
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lambone
Aug 20, 2005, 5:07 PM
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All I have to say about this foolish thread is that it's only going to take ONE fall for this guy to get schooled.
If you clove every peice, why even use a dynamic rope? You might as well just use a cheap static line, since by cloving the pieces you are turning your dynamic into a static.
this has got to be a troll...
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