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arnoilgner
Oct 3, 2005, 4:28 PM
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We meet fear when we are in that space where we are pumped and doubting whether or not we can continue climbing. How we proceed determines largely if we are masters of our fear or servants of it. What seems to be most helpful is to develop power over the thoughts that rush in when we are stressed.
I'd like to suggest everyone do this exercise and report back his/her findings.
Important: This exercise will include falling. If you have little or no experience falling then do this on toprope.
Exercise: Find a route that is at or above your limit that is well protected with "safe" fall consequences. Begin the climb with a specific intention: to notice what kinds of thoughts you have when you are in that space where you are stressed, become afraid or have doubts. Simply record your thoughts.
After we have some folks post their results I'll give an additional exercise on what to do about these thoughts.
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liquid_ice
Oct 3, 2005, 5:02 PM
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well i havnt gone out n done it since ive read this but i can recall some of the feelings i go thru, first is the adrenaline rush followed by realisation of the crux i may of just completed, but then it hits me that i may not be able to hang on enough to clip in, my fear is of having so much slack out when i am clipping in that my fall may be a considerable amount more dangerous to me or even my belayer, and thas about the time when the weeping comes in :wink:
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slavetogravity
Oct 3, 2005, 6:07 PM
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99 red balloons floating in the summer sky...... Oh man, I’m gunna’ blow it! I’m gunna blow it. I’m gunna blow it. I’m gunna blow it. I’m gunna blow it. I’m gunna blow it. I’m gunna blow it. I’m gunna blow it. I’m gunna blow it. I’m gunna blow it. NO!! I’ve got it I’m going to do it! I’m going to do it! I’m going to do it!............Flash the message, Something’s out there floating in the summer sky. 99 red balloons go by............. WTF!?? God I hate that song. Fn’ German Pop crap! Did I leave the oven on? etc....
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j_ung
Oct 3, 2005, 6:09 PM
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Same here.
I tried to climb a roof crack that, to my knowledge, hasn't been climbed before. As I stood in an alcove near the back of the roof looking out at two body lengths of horizontal climbing to the lip, I think I actually said aloud, "This won't go."
At the urging of my belayer, I got into it anyway and gave it a "try". But as I worked my way out the crack, it was a constant battle of thoughts between, "I can't do this... take," and, "Just reach out a little further and see what the next jam feels like."
The rest went something like this:
"OK, it's OK. I guess I can move again."
"I need gear. I need gear. I need gear."
"Can I hang on while I place?"
"OK, I think I can hang on. Place gear..."
"Crap, it's not as good as I thought it would be. Oh shit! Adjust it! Adjust it!"
"OK better. Crap this is hard. I think I need to take."
"Just reach out a little further and see what the next jam feels like."
This cycle brought me eventually to the lip of the roof, where the real hard climbing starts. By then, I was so sweaty, bloody and mentally and physically exhausted that I gave up, back aided until I could downclimb to the belay and then lowered off.
That's about as honest as I can make it. I hope it's detailed enough. Ugh.
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noface
Oct 3, 2005, 6:39 PM
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I start to question things. Like is that the next hold? Can I reach that clip? Will my hand hold? What am I doing? Then there is just the presence of ultranegative "NO" when I am really stressed right before I let go. I don't climb until falling. I climb till I think I'm going to fall.
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cintune
Oct 3, 2005, 6:39 PM
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"I'm going to die." But I didn't.
[edit] Going to the gym tonight, will take extra crashpad, pencil and paper.
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arnoilgner
Oct 10, 2005, 3:52 AM
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Okay, we got a few posts.
Anyway, consider this.
One reminder. This is for well protected sport and trad climbs, not runout stuff. And, you are on a climb at or above your limit.
The thoughts you have (while on such hard climbs) are not true representations of what is possible for you. What you consciously know you can do are only those routes rated below your limit--that don't challenge you or create doubts. So, you cannot trust your thoughts to guide you when climbing routes that are at or above your limit. You need something else--your body.
Consider doing this exercise:
Set an intention to commit forward to climbing and do not listen to any thoughts that want you to escape the stress. Rather, make the next move anyway. In other words, do not decide to take a fall because you "think" you can't make the next move. Trust your body to make the next move and go ahead and make it. Sometimes you'll be able to make it and sometimes you'll fall in the process of making it. Either way you are creating a learning situation about how you respond to doubts in that most interesting space.
Report back please. arno
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jacobbelsher
Oct 10, 2005, 6:33 AM
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In reply to: How we proceed determines largely if we are masters of our fear or servants of it.
Sometimes. More often I think the routes difficulty determines how I procede. That or some other tangible...
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korntera
Oct 10, 2005, 7:05 AM
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A while back I decided that a 10b looked really easy ( I had only top roped 5.9's before) So i decided that I would lead it. I got three bolts up and felt super confident and strong. Then about 5 feet after the first bolt I took my first ever lead fall. It was such a rush. I sat there thinking WOW that was FUN!!! then i got back to the point and got really scared about falling and wouldn't climb up. Finally i realized I can't get this gear back unless I make it to the top so i tried again and fell and had fun falling. got a little rope burn and walked off leaving gear.
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heiko
Oct 10, 2005, 9:01 AM
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"THAT NEXT BOLT IS TOO FAR AWAY".
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j_ung
Oct 12, 2005, 2:26 PM
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Reporting back...
I've been trying to get back into decent shape since a mostly sedentary summer. Two nights ago, I was climbing steep stuff at the local gym and ran into exactly the situation we've been trying to identify in this thread. I made a clip and thought, Taaaake... but I didn't say it. Then I remembered this thread and made a concious decision to move through it. Eventually I fell off the route, but not until I actually fell. I didn't yell take and I didn't give up. I got a lot farther than I thought I would.
But It was easy to practice this on the route I was climbing. And indeed, I already knew what the result would be. I just needed to push myself a little.
But Arno, it's the gym and, unfortunately, it's where most of my climbing is done these days. I'm more comfortable there than any other place. It's a different story entirely when I'm onsighting, outside, pumped and I don't know where my next protection is coming from.
I've fallen on gear far too many times to count and I have days onsighting trad when my confidence is high and the climbing flows. But more often than not, the uncertainty really gets to me. As a result, I've been far more successful at redpointing than onsighting and some of those falls were the result of me giving up and letting go. I'd like to turn that around.
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outdoorsie
Oct 12, 2005, 3:31 PM
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In reply to: Exercise: Find a route that is at or above your limit that is well protected with "safe" fall consequences. Begin the climb with a specific intention: to notice what kinds of thoughts you have when you are in that space where you are stressed, become afraid or have doubts. Simply record your thoughts. After we have some folks post their results I'll give an additional exercise on what to do about these thoughts.
Well, I came across this thread just last week, so I guess I'm a little behind? This is kind of funny, Arno, because I totally signed up for the clinic when you come through Fort Collins in November. Maybe we can keep working on this then...
Anyway, last night I did a little leading in the gym, and the route that I picked to be "at or above" my limit starts with a commiting sequence, and the first bolt is a funky stance. When I got to it, it was like my body said "Oh crud! The brain is trying to do something stupid! Time to take over!" and it wasn't even a concious movement... My whole body just wanted that protection so I stuck my foot on a big hold off route to make the clip.
I find this happens with me a lot. I feel like my brain becomes this little voice saying "you don't have to wuss out..." that is completely ignored by the rest of my body. :oops:
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arnoilgner
Oct 13, 2005, 3:00 PM
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Hello jacobbelsher - Your quote below:
"Sometimes. More often I think the routes difficulty determines how I procede. That or some other tangible..."
Yes, the route difficulty can determine how you think. What I am wanting you to experience is to move beyond difficulty. Route difficulty has nothing to do with committing forward to climbing as long as you feel you can respond effectively to a fall. In fact, harder routes have cleaner fall consequences than do easier routes.
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 13, 2005, 3:04 PM
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Hi Korntera. Your quote below:
"WOW that was FUN!!! then i got back to the point and got really scared about falling and wouldn't climb up. Finally i realized I can't get this gear back unless I make it to the top so i tried again and fell and had fun falling."
Falling can be fun but it is also dangerous. Don't take it too lightly but rather find ways to practice in small increments, perhaps beginning on toprope.
Do you see how getting on that 10b, which was beyond your limit, opened new perspectives on what is possible for you?
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 13, 2005, 3:07 PM
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Heiko.
Your quote "THAT NEXT BOLT IS TOO FAR AWAY" is a thought. The exercise I'm wanting you to do helps transcend limiting thoughts. Do the exercise and see if you can let go of that thought and commit forward to climbing.
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 13, 2005, 3:10 PM
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Heiko.
Your quote "THAT NEXT BOLT IS TOO FAR AWAY" is a thought. The exercise I'm wanting you to do helps transcend limiting thoughts. Do the exercise and see if you can let go of that thought and commit forward to climbing.
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 13, 2005, 3:11 PM
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Heiko.
Your quote "THAT NEXT BOLT IS TOO FAR AWAY" is a thought. The exercise I'm wanting you to do helps transcend limiting thoughts. Do the exercise and see if you can let go of that thought and commit forward to climbing.
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 13, 2005, 3:18 PM
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j_ung.
Your comments:
"It's a different story entirely when I'm onsighting, outside, pumped and I don't know where my next protection is coming from. As a result, I've been far more successful at redpointing than onsighting and some of those falls were the result of me giving up and letting go. I'd like to turn that around."
Yes, it is different, but the method is the same. Personally, I don't like to continue climbing if I do not know where the next pro possibilities are. There is no easy way to do this. It takes getting into uncomfortable situations, like the outside trad climbs you refer to, and working the model. If you're doing this in NC then you're mainly dealing with runout climbs. Find well protected trad and sport climbs and apply it there.
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 13, 2005, 3:28 PM
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Hey outdoorsie,
Yes, we'll be working on exactly this during the clinics in CO in Nov.
Your comment: "I find this happens with me a lot. I feel like my brain becomes this little voice saying "you don't have to wuss out..." that is completely ignored by the rest of my body."
Are you sure it is your body that is resisting or is it your thoughts first and then your body? So, it sounds like you're climbing and then you stop. What is causing the "stop?" Do two things:
First, make the next move anyway, if you can. If you can't then...
Second, delay reacting and stay where you are doing various things such as taking a step up, step down, chalking up, breathing, looking at the possible sequence, identifying exactly where the next bolt is, look down to know what the fall consequence is, etc. In other words, keep attention engaged in solving the problem facing you instead of what may be in there. See you body follows.
arno
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naw
Oct 13, 2005, 10:22 PM
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My main complaint in regards to trying to work on leading is that fear kills my desire to climb. Does anyone understand what I mean by this? If I get on a route, get sketched, and become paralyzed by fear, I lose my desire to climb. In the end, it's the loss of desire that ends in my coming down off the route, not the fear of a fall. When I get in a situation like we're discussing, I immediately start to question my footwork, second guessing every move I make. "This hold isn't good...I'm off balance...my foot feels like it's going to slip...my arms feel pumped...my foot feels like it's going to slip...is my foot behind the rope...I think I'm overgripping...am I overgripping...should I make this move...etc...etc." Eventually, I take, and then it almost seems like the damage is done. Once I question myself and give up once, it's almost impossible for me to work up the motivation to try again. The most interesting thing is that I don't actually feel afraid to fall. Most of my climbing is sport routes, so I know the pro is trustworthy. What happens is that I actually lose my desire to climb. I no longer want to finish the route. I guess the fear is so unenjoyable that I don't even know why I'm climbing to begin with. Then, of course, as soon as I have an hour or two to relax, I'm pumped to climb again. It seems like the majority of my problems stem from an inability to focus on what I'm doing. As long as I'm climbing confidently, not questioning myself, and staying focused on the movement, I don't get scared. As soon as I start to second guess my movement, it's all over. Another interesting fact...this type of problem doesn't happen when I'm climbing something that I know is too difficult for me to onsight/redpoint. For some reason, I'm much more relaxed when I have no expectations for myself. However, if I know I'm strong enough to onsight or redpoint a route, the pressure of that knowledge somehow makes me much, much more nervous as I climb. Maybe I'm afraid to succeed? I've been doing some focus exercises lately, so hopefully they'll help me stay with the moment. I know this response is greatly beyond the scope of the exercise, but it sort of wrote itself so I apologize for the long read.
nate
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saxfiend
Oct 13, 2005, 10:46 PM
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In reply to: My main complaint in regards to trying to work on leading is that fear kills my desire to climb. Does anyone understand what I mean by this? If I get on a route, get sketched, and become paralyzed by fear, I lose my desire to climb. In the end, it's the loss of desire that ends in my coming down off the route, not the fear of a fall. [snip] The most interesting thing is that I don't actually feel afraid to fall.
JL
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naw
Oct 13, 2005, 10:52 PM
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Yeah, I wish I knew the answer myself. I've taken 40 foot falls on overhanging routes at the red, I've fallen 20-25 feet on slab. I'm pretty good at analyzing fall consequences...the fall is not what I'm afraid of. Maybe I'm afraid of effort? Or maybe of trying my best and failing? It could be a pressure issue. I just wish I could enjoy pushing myself instead of fearing it.
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tallnik
Oct 13, 2005, 11:42 PM
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Hey everyone, awesome thread Arno...
Anyways, my contribution lies within the realm of my trad climbing. I've been leading trad for a season and a half, and feel comfortable on most 5.8s. On sport I climb 5.10, and generally fear doesn't really factor in my sport climbing. Occasionally it does, but then mostly I just have to take a fall and get it out of my system, and then I'm good to climb until my absolute limit.
On trad though... hooooweeee that's a different story. I've never really fallen on my gear. To be pedantic, I've fallen twice, once on my first lead when my partner could see the piece was good, and the fall clean he made me climb above it to the point where it was at my feet and then fall. But his telling me to take a fall meant I knew the piece was good. Secondly, I fell once when I placed a piece, clipped in, was about to climb, and my foot blew. I went down maybe two feet. While theoretically I know my pieces are good, and should hold a fall, the thing that freaks me out sometimes with my climbing at or just above my level (5.8+ cracks, as jamming is a new game to me, until recently all the trad cracks I'd done I applied face climbing techniques to, and have only recently started torquing, or 5.9+ trad routes) is the thought that I'll take a fall and my gear won't hold.
5.8 finger crack I recently climbed (angled to the left, left foot constantly smearing on steep terrain, right foot in the crack) this is what was in my mind:
- alright, good jam, place a piece, go...
- you're 6feet above your last piece, start sweating and have to control the fear in my mind, find that good jam, go, go, go you're ten feet above your last piece, milk that jam, make it solid, find the gear, stop sweating dammit, plug the gear, tighten jam, pull rope, clip, no fear, go...
and repeat
my problem basically was that I had to control my fear to trust the jams to be able to hold me long enough to place gear and clip, or when climbing above my pieces. As soon as I have a piece above me or right a waist level, the next few moves are done without fear.
Sorry about the super long explanation.
Cheers,
Nik
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fightingmuskrat
Oct 14, 2005, 12:55 AM
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I usually become scared when I look down directly at the bolt and see how far from it I am. When I am in the zone I rarely look down.
Different things enter my mind when I am feeling fear in the situation you outlined:
1. I cannot climb higher because I will not have the strength to clip the next bolt.
2. I cannot climb higher because I will not find a good hold to clip from (this generally prevents me from on sighting - the fear of not finding a clipping hold).
3. Complete mind fog. I am thinking of nothing specific - no images, no words, no thoughts - and I become completely frozen.
These fears prevent me from climbing the way I know I can. What is frustrating is the inconsistency of my fear - there are days I can climb hard 12's with no fear and the next day I'll start crying over a 5.9 that is run out.
Thanks Arno,
Danielle
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fungpu
Oct 14, 2005, 2:07 PM
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Arno - hat's off to your awesome book! As I was recently leading a 5.9+ in the whites, I found myself in a difficult, awkward space. I did not freak, but fell anyway, apx 20 ft, totally unexpected. Got a little banged up, and tapped a deck. I didn't know why I fell. After getting back to it, it took awhile to get my head around it. I looked everywhere for a better way, but there wasn't. I had to use the same moves, which I eventually did. This time I made it through. Later on I was trying to figure what happened. I now know. I was gripped and tensed in muscle areas where I needed to relax which caused me to loose poise and balance. My mind went to the next move before I solved this crux because I was doing the 'if only I can grab that next hold' thing. So, I guess I did freak because it's only when you can keep your head in the moment that you are relaxed enough to make it go.
Thanks! It became that learning experience! Very cool!
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paganmonkeyboy
Oct 14, 2005, 2:21 PM
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In reply to: My main complaint in regards to trying to work on leading is that fear kills my desire to climb. Does anyone understand what I mean by this? If I get on a route, get sketched, and become paralyzed by fear, I lose my desire to climb. nate
Indeed. And the fear makes me think 'what the hell am I doing up here ?' sometimes as well.
There has been more than one time where things got ugly - off route, bad weather, whatever - and the fear starts to whisper things like 'that's a ledge fall', 'that cam was sketchy' etc...about 2 years back I was knee deep in the grip, totally out beyond comfort, and had an inspirational flash.
"When I get to the belay I'm going to pee my pants. But not until then - at this moment, just execute" - do what you know, and pay attention so deep you aren't even concious of anything else. And the best part is, by the time you pull through it, you don't feel like peeing in your pants any more...
Anyone else ? (one of the best threads in a while, btw :) many thanks...)
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microbarn
Oct 14, 2005, 2:45 PM
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thank you paganmonkeyboy
I had to laugh when I read this. I think your method may work for me because of its distraction value. Peeing is the last thing on my mind when I am sketched. If I can remember this, I would get distracted from my fear. The distraction could be bad because it might take my attention away from the flow of the climb and my body. However, it could help me control the fear followed by directed attention to the climb.
Thanks,
Dan
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microbarn
Oct 14, 2005, 2:58 PM
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I forgot to mention, that your post, paganmonkeyboy, made it clear to me how different everyone's thoughts could be while in a stressful situation.
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paganmonkeyboy
Oct 14, 2005, 3:55 PM
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In reply to: thank you paganmonkeyboy I had to laugh when I read this. I think your method may work for me because of its distraction value. Peeing is the last thing on my mind when I am sketched. If I can remember this, I would get distracted from my fear. The distraction could be bad because it might take my attention away from the flow of the climb and my body. However, it could help me control the fear followed by directed attention to the climb. Thanks, Dan
Most welcome...imho, there is a time and a place to let the fear in/out...standing at the belay is a good spot, fighting the peel twenty feet above the cam that just rotated up so you can see the stem is not the time nor the place. Execute, then brick later :D ymmv, and probably should...
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fungpu
Oct 14, 2005, 4:49 PM
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Most significantly is:
In reply to: And the best part is, by the time you pull through it, you don't feel like peeing in your pants any more...
The real trick is training your mind not to go there when you need to be in the moment most. Easier talked about than done I realize. But, haven't you had a moment when that unfortunate nut below you dislodges and slides 25 ft down the rope, and your next pro is 15 ft past a sketch move :shock: , so you put it out of your mind because you have to and then when you get to your next stance and put that bomber pro in you say 'lovin sweet jesus! if I fell then.......' and you make a note to self about future nut placements, and move on, the moment came and went. But when freaking becomes absolutely unnacceptable, you pull through or die. It's what happens when ordinary people respond (without thinking) in an emergency, and perform heroic acts that they never could have had they thought about it first. Your mind can stay in the present, the art is training that to happen on command.
peace all
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arnoilgner
Oct 17, 2005, 5:19 PM
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Nate,
Everything you are saying indicates that, either consciously or unconsciously, you aren't valuing the learning process. You are too attached to climbing a certain way or to getting to the top. You are losing motivation because you are not getting your expectations met. Just as you pointed out.
You can begin the process of maintaining your desire a few ways.
First, get on your challenging climbs again and watch those thoughts come up. When you are in that space, replace those thoughts with "make another move". Keep saying this and see if your body follows. Your conscious mind can only hold one thought at a time. Put a thought that will keep you focused forward on climbing.
Second, get on moderate toprope climbs with the intention of practicing breathing. Don't get all wrapped up in the climbing and forget to breathe. Simply climb and keep your breathing going constantly.
Third, get on hard toprope climbs and do some speed climbing.
All of these things will break apart your tendency to over think the climbing process, help realign you to learning, and make your climbing flow better.
arno
BTW. My last newsletter topic was on expectations. If you'd like to receive it just email me: warriorsway@mindspring.com
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arnoilgner
Oct 17, 2005, 5:28 PM
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Hi Nik [tallnik],
All those things you mentioned that you say to yourself to "control" your fear is actually directing your attention. Fear is not a state in-and-of-itself. Fear is the result of attention leaking out of the present moment. What you are accomplishing by saying all those, what I call, "problem solving" saying/thoughts is directing attention onto what you need to do to deal with the climbing.
Also, there is a difference between intellectual knowledge and experiential knowledge. You have experiential knowledge about falling on sport but only intellectual knowledge about falling on trad. You will have to gain experiential knowledge about falling on trad to reduce the fear. No, there isn't a magic bullet. You gotta do it to go through it. Make sure you have about three solid pieces within about a one or two foot range as you top piece and catch some air.
enjoy,
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 17, 2005, 5:44 PM
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Hello Danielle,
Here are a few comments and suggestions:
"I usually become scared when I look down directly at the bolt"
Look down anyway. I need to keep reminding folks (me included) that learning is the goal. If you look down and it makes you afraid then look down and see if you can stay in that space. By getting there and staying there you begin to process yourself through whatever is causing the fear and rewriting it out of your experience. We've all heard "face your fears" and perhaps "you can't go around fear; you must go through." Imagine how much more you'll be in the zone if you could look up, sideways, or down when climbing. You need to place your feet when climbing in the zone, don't you???
"the fear of not finding a clipping hold"
There is always a clipping hold. It may be small but it's there. If the route has been done before, there is a clipping hold. So, stop thinking about it that way. Rather, put this thought in your mind when you leave the security of your last bolt and launch into the unknown: "where is my next clip hold?"
I believe your inconsistency (5.9 - 5.12) is due to lack of self confidence. Self confidence is defined as "confidence in the self"--YOU. And, the only way to gain "confidence in YOU" is to value the learning process. "Confidence in YOU" is built by YOU going through learning experiences. What you are saying leads me to believe you are too attached to the numbers or getting to the top of routes. Set learning goals like how to fall effectively, how to down climb, how to commit, how to breathe continuously, etc. There is always something you can practice to overcome fearful situations. Find out what those things are and practice them. These type exercises will grow your experience and give you confidence in Danielle.
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 17, 2005, 5:48 PM
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Hello [fungpu], man you guys/gals have some interesting online names
Congrats on the awareness. It's a continual process, but if we value learning we do make progress in growing our understanding of what we are capable of. Attention in the moment. That is the core of mental fitness.
best,
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 17, 2005, 5:53 PM
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Hey paganmonkeyboy, again, nice name
What you are describing is what many call the internal dialogue that goes on in our head. One voice wants to pull us back into our comfort zone; the other wants us to rise to the challenge. If you've decided you want to take the risk, then let go of the comfort zone voice and utilize the challenge voice. Sounds like you are doing it, and without wetting your pants.
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 17, 2005, 6:05 PM
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fungpu
"It's what happens when ordinary people respond (without thinking) in an emergency, and perform heroic acts that they never could have had they thought about it first. Your mind can stay in the present, the art is training that to happen on command."
What you are referring to is when adrenaline takes over for thinking. I don't think we want to climb like that all the time, although, there will be times when we get into situations where we need to respond this way. But, in general we need to be calmer in our climbing. We can be intense but we don't want to always be fighting for life with such grave consequences, not me anyway.
By the way, the only way to have your mind in the present moment is to not think. That is also one reason these adrenaline events are so powerful--you aren't thinking; you are doing. Putting a thought like "suck it up and do it" will at least focus attention forward on climbing, but it is one step away from being fully present.
To keep attention in the moment on command can be done. It take practice and involves doing climbing exerices that train your body to focus attention. When you are climbing (not resting and assessing) you need to do things with your body to focus attention, not your mind.
arno
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lajhanata
Oct 17, 2005, 6:05 PM
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I usually agree with the idea that hard moves require commitment. When I get wobbly legs on those greasy nubbins below me and it's time for a giant extension to who-knows-what kind of hold I have to put everything out of my head and simply commit or I'll never make it. It's sort of a willpower thing. Still, in the exercise here, that means that I'm busting the hardest moves on a climb that's above my grade. Well guess what, after committing to two or three moves that have me scared sheitless I'm pumped. I usually grease around the fourth hard move. On sport, that's usually fine. Trad's a different story. I recently took a fall and plinked a piece. I fell about thirty feet thinking "I'm dead or worse" before I smashed into my belay partner four feet off the ground. Needless to say my placements improved dramatically afterward, but what I'm trying to say is that it isn't always smart to push your limit. If I had stuck the hold I fell on and then fell a little higher up I would have decked, and yes, I thought I was on bomber gear. Maybe this is a better exercise for sport than for Trad, the stakes aren't quite as high.
That said, the method Arno describes for climbing through fear is absolutely spot on. It can even be used during a fall.
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tallnik
Oct 17, 2005, 7:13 PM
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Arno, thank you for this thread. It's helping my focus while climbing immensely!
Cheers,
Nik
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naw
Oct 18, 2005, 12:20 AM
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Arno, thanks for the response. I think that speed climbing is an interesting suggestion. By "hard" toprope climbs, would you suggest around my redpoint limit, or harder? Also, your response made me think about something else...I'm not sure how strange this sounds but bear with me. It seems like, on longer routes, I get more afraid the higher I climb when leading. Sometimes I attribute this to perhaps an instinctive fear of heights, but sometimes I wonder if it's actually a fear of failure after so much effort. Maybe the closer I get to sending a route, the more afraid I get of trying so hard, making it 90% to the top, and then failing. It seems like sometimes I make myself so nervous as I climb that it builds and builds, and I want to give up the closer I get to the top rather than stay in that state of arousal/nervousness etc. I was out climbing this weekend, and my girlfriend/climbing partner insisted that I take some intentional falls on an overhanging route. It's been awhile since I've taken a good fall. I was terrified of letting go at first, which is strange, but after a few falls I was climbing up and jumping off without any hesitation. Sometimes I wish I could just pop a xanax or something before a hard day of leading. What I really want is just to enjoy leading as much as I enjoy top-roping....I've felt that joy of a good lead before, but it seems like more and more it's replaced with fear. I'd like to look up at a route I'm about to attempt to onsight and think "My goal is to learn a lot from this route," but even if I do, I feel like I'm still subconsciously thinking "I need to send this route...this route is well within my ability." Somehow though, that confidence that a route is well within my ability fades as soon as I get about 30 feet up and my forearms start to feel a little pumped. Suddenly, it's "oh wait, I can't possibly get to the top of this without a take, I'm too pumped already, I screwed the sequence up below, I hesitated too long, etc etc." Thinking about these fears and remembering them after the fact has pushed me to the point where I don't even want to lead most of the time because I'm too afraid of being stuck in that place again, feeling that panic and fear. Usually if I can just force myself to get on the wall and get a couple bolts up, I get into the route and relax a little. It still seems however, that if I encounter anything on the route that intimidates me or confuses me, I fall right back into that panic mindset and start wanting to come down. It seems like lately I'm one big ball of problems, and I just don't understand why. I've led runout mixed routes at stone mountain and sport 12s at the red river gorge without a second thought, so I know I'm capable of better than this. I've got a three week trip to el potrero chico planned in one month, and I'm becoming concerned that I won't be able to perform. I guess I'll just have to look forward to it as an enjoyable experience and not as a time to push my performance. Anyway, thanks for the response and maybe some of you guys understand where I'm coming from with some of this stuff?
nate
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arnoilgner
Oct 18, 2005, 4:44 PM
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Hello lajhanata,
Yes, climbing is dangerous. We do need to practice this on well protected sport and trad climbs where you feel you can respond effectively to a fall. On well protected trad, I like to put two pieces below difficult sections to insure I won't fall a longer way if one piece pulls. This not only helps reduce chances of injury should a piece pull but also give a little more confidence to commit forward.
Thanks for your post.
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 18, 2005, 5:00 PM
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Hi Nate,
"By 'hard' toprope climbs, would you suggest around my redpoint limit, or harder?"
**Begin with routes below your limit, then at your limit, and then above your limit. See what happens.
"It seems like, on longer routes, I get more afraid the higher I climb when leading. Sometimes I attribute this to perhaps an instinctive fear of heights, but sometimes I wonder if it's actually a fear of failure after so much effort."
**Fear can come from many sources. There could be some fear of heights and some fear of failure. For the latter, be honest with yourself about what you value. Do you truly value learning or the end-result? There is no fear of failure when you value learning because each outcome is an opportunity for learning.
"Sometimes I wish I could just pop a xanax or something before a hard day of leading."
**That is everyone's tendency. Sorry, no magic pills or silver bullets.
"I'd like to look up at a route I'm about to attempt to onsight and think 'My goal is to learn a lot from this route,' but even if I do, I feel like I'm still subconsciously thinking 'I need to send this route...this route is well within my ability.'"
**It takes time to rewrite what you value. But, you begin by intentionally and consciously doing things that value learning. When you go to onsight a route eliminate both thoughts and replace with: "Where are the rests; where are the difficult sections; what is the fall consequence; can I respond to the fall consequence; what will I do to rise to this challenge; etc." Keep attention on those things that you WILL DO to rise to the onsight. Remember, "learning" is the result of actions you take. So, it is helpful to begin by saying "my goal is to learn a lot from this route" but then you need to focus attention on what you will do so you can learn.
arno
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degaine
Oct 21, 2005, 12:29 PM
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In reply to: Keep attention on those things that you WILL DO to rise to the onsight. Remember, "learning" is the result of actions you take. So, it is helpful to begin by saying "my goal is to learn a lot from this route" but then you need to focus attention on what you will do so you can learn. arno
Interesting point. When tree skiing, I tell friends to look at the white areas between the trees instead of at the trees themselves - in other words, look where you CAN ski rather than where you can't ski.
I certainly to apply this to climbing and need to focus more on the moves and my upward progress when climbing than on the big "what if I can't..." It's like programming my own failure from the start.
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naw
Oct 22, 2005, 12:50 AM
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Arno, thanks for you reply to my posts. I tried some speed climbing at the gym the other night, and was very happy with the results. I did a couple of routes I usually warm up/cool down on, and was pleasantly suprised by the fact that I was significantly less pumped at the top than I was when I climbed them regularly. I think it really sheds light on the fact that I've been climbing far too statically, wasting time, etc. I was reading your book last night and I came across a section about power sink (or I was it power leaks, I can't remember), and one of the examples you discussed was overchalking. I realized I've been wasting a lot of time sitting at good holds and chalking my hands instead of just moving through the route. I think I've been struggling to make every move on a route 100% safe instead of moving confidently...maybe this is a manifestation of my fear of falling? I admire static technique and some of my favorite climbers to watch are those that seem to float up the rock with no effort, but I think that I've gotten too wrapped up in this style of climbing and it's having a very negative impact on my flow, and definitely giving me too much time to second guess my movement. I think I have some mental issues going on as well; feelings of competition with those around me and fear of falling in particular. I'll have to work on these, but the speed climbing has definitely helped with the physical aspects of my lack of confidence. I'm thinking about starting my warmup with some lead falls as you recommend in your book. Has anyone else had success with this? Thanks again for the advice. I'm not sure if you would remember me, but I've met you a couple of times. My girlfriend Sandy and I took your day clinic at the New some months back, and we saw you at the Red again a couple weeks after that. Thanks for the advice you've given both of us and hope to run into you again soon.
nate
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fungpu
Oct 25, 2005, 5:26 PM
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Hi,
Few interesting experiences. Climbed some hard (10d) sport routes the other day, one I definitely fell repeatedly at the crux, but used what I've learned about 'listening' to see the moves that ultimately pulled me through. Very Cool.
Other one was a trad route with a runout, poorly protected description in the guide. On this one, I was very cautious. I over-thought every part. When I finished, I thought it protected well, and didn't see it as run out. It was well within my ability (5.8). I wasn't necessarily disappointed by taking so long, but probably could have enjoyed it more if I were more in the moment. I found it interesting how much influence the route description had on my climbing because it told me what to expect.
By the way, the route is avoided by others because of the description, and I had avoided it for years. It's really a kick ass route, and I'd do it again any day. Now I'm thinking of all the other routes I've passed up for the same reason.
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arnoilgner
Oct 28, 2005, 1:26 AM
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Hi fungpu
Yes, if we can find a way to engage and allow the experience to clarify the truth of the situation then we'll go much further than allowing a guidebook or other people's perception to determine ours.
Enjoy all those other routes now...
arno
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tallnik
Oct 31, 2005, 1:10 AM
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In reply to: Hi Nik [tallnik], Also, there is a difference between intellectual knowledge and experiential knowledge. You have experiential knowledge about falling on sport but only intellectual knowledge about falling on trad. You will have to gain experiential knowledge about falling on trad to reduce the fear. No, there isn't a magic bullet. You gotta do it to go through it. Make sure you have about three solid pieces within about a one or two foot range as you top piece and catch some air. enjoy, arno
So, today I logged some air time. I was 25 feet up on a 5.8+ finger crack, with two solid pieces below me (a thumb sized cam from Rock Empire, and a Wild Country Zero number 6), and was about 6 feet above the WC, trying to move into a good stance in the next move or two to place gear, when my right foot which I was smearing on the face with blew. In falling I caught my feet on the rock, and ended upside down. 15ft below where I had originally been standing. My first thought was "HOLY COW, the piece held... IT WORKS!!!" and then "stupid you for not falling cleanly." I really hadn't been expecting to pop, and the body position I was in resulted in me tumbling head over heels. I was shocked that the piece had held, that I wasn't hurt, and kind of sheepish but happy. I asked my partner to lower me the remaining 10feet, and when I got down, I was so full of emotions which weren't in tune with being focused to finish the pitch so I asked my parter to finish this pitch and I would do a later one higher up.
So now we're on the third and final pitch, again a 5.8+ and the rack's in my hands again. I leave the belay station, place one nut, I'm feeling ok, and then as the climbing started to get harder, I couldn't focus, I was so scared of popping and landing on that nut I'd placed. I couldn't stop sweating and was greasing out of the jams. I was trying to place a piece, and then get into a stance to take a rest so I could get myself back together. However, the cam I grabbed was the wrong size, and was too open in the crack. I was freaking out by this point, and couldn't contemplate taking it back out, and then putting the right size in. I was really uncomfortable, and so I told my partner I was climbing back to the belay station. I didn't have the head for the lead. Even though I knew the piece below me was good... I couldn't keep going. Aghh... I feel like I should have gotten back on that first climb where I bailed and climbed through where I fell.
On a side note, it felt really good to have a place I placed catch me. I was once again affirmed in my love for helmets. (although I didn't hit my head, I was still grateful for the lid). And my climbing partner said my placements were excellent. Considering he's a solid climber with a good safety sense and tons more experience, it felt really good to hear.
My plan is to log some more pitches pushing my limits, and I'll probably be landing on some more gear in the future. On sport I'm in the mid 10s now, and so I find it funny that mentally (and partially due to needing to refine crack technique) I'm held back to a limit of 5.8+-5.9- on trad.
Thoughts Arno?
Cheers,
Nik
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wonderwoman
Nov 15, 2005, 1:46 PM
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Arno, thanks for starting this post. I feel like your book has really helped me find ways to challenge my fears and become a more focused climber. This past June someone gave me a journal. Combining that random gift with recently having read your book, I was inspired to keep a climbing journal and write down what was going through my head while on leads that scared me, and to develop goals for myself and even tick lists for climbs that I think may challenge me.
What I have found is that there is a shrieking voice inside my head (very similar to my mother's voice :shock: ) that tells me of impending doom or gives me any reason in the world why I can't make the move. It tells me that the rope is behind my leg when it clearly isn't (I learned that lesson the hard way and carry that with me on every climb) or that I'm lost on a trad route or that I'm going to get to the top and find the anchors have been chopped. It gives me every reason to bail or even quit climbing all together.
So I have been writing it all down which has helped me realize how silly that harsh voice sounds (sorry mom!). Now I am picking out climbs that I know will challenge me (long climbs, 'scary'climbs, etc.) before we go out to an area. I am finding that I am enjoying climbing more now than ever and am now setting goals for myself instead of only setting limits.
Thanks for your help. I'm really glad to have read your book.
Tiff
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arnoilgner
Nov 15, 2005, 9:48 PM
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Hi Nik,
Was gone so couldn't reply earlier. Anyway, I guess you got some experiential knowledge. I wouldn't trust a cam that is too open though. Don't compromise the placement. Place something solid or don't proceed. You won't trust the gear otherwise and if you do and fall it will probably pull which is not conducive to a learning situation.
If you pull the wrong sized piece off your rack then simply stay problem solving focused. Put it back and get another one. If you are freakin then acknowledge where your last piece is, visualize the fall to make sure you could respond should you fall before you get the piece in, and then refocus on putting in the piece. Oh yes, breathe.
arno
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arnoilgner
Nov 15, 2005, 9:58 PM
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Hello Tiff (wonderwoman),
How could anyone with a name like wonderwoman have any problems? I know what you mean about the voices, although it probably should concern you that it sounds like your Mom. Anyway, we generally have two voices in our heads--the one that wants to keep us safe and the one that wants us to rise to the challenge. These two voices is/are why folks refer to this chatter as inner dialogue.
There isn't anything bad about this limiting talk. Its intent is to keep us safe. So, before engaging a challenging climb make sure you can respond to the fall consequence (keep you safe). If you feel you can respond to whatever the challenge is then the limiting voice has less merit.
Best way to deal with this dialogue is to be the witness/observer. Notice the limiting talk and know that you don't have to listen to it, but can rather listen to the empowering talk.
arno
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_fiend_
Nov 16, 2005, 6:46 PM
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Well I tried this today, on a route that's not at my limit but was challenging enough for me to have the potential to fuck it right up.
I climbed a lower flake to a committing move onto a slopey - and distinctly uncomfortable - break. At this point I had to place crucial protection and then make two tricky moves to finish. This is where the stress began, and my thoughts were roughly as follows:
"I need a bit of protection ASAP as I'm close enough to the ground that the gear by my feet might not protect me" (this wasn't an unreasonable thought - looking at the route later on I'd have been only a metre or two above the ground if I'd fallen at that point)
- I hurriedly place a cam.
"This break is very slopey and doesn't have the handjams I'd hoped for"
"That cam is okay, but I need to place another good bit of protection before doing the crux finish" (a reasonable thought, I always want two good pieces between me and the ground)
- I try to place another cam that is just too large for an otherwise good placement.
"Bollox!"
- I fiddle more with the useless cam placement whilst starting to get pumped.
- I then give up on the cam and have a look at the other possibilities. They are harder to place and partially blocked by the cams. I am now getting distinctly more pumped.
"I am too pumped to continue to hang on, place a proper piece of protection, work out the next moves and do them - I know now that I cannot complete this climb" (a negative thought but probably an accurate one - a fair estimate of how quickly I was getting pumped and how much was still to be done)
- I fiddle a hex in a non-placement that's resting behind the decent cam.
"That is rubbish. I've really fucked up placing a second bit of pro"
"Okay, so I'm in this situation of stress and pump and discomfort and inability to continue. I will keep sticking around to record my thoughts and see what happens" (really, quite futile, as I already know I can't continue)
- I hang around some more, trying to get any possible rest or shake-out, but there isn't any.
- I finally fiddle in a good solid hex.
- I have a brief look at the moves past the gear, but the excess amount of shoddy gear has blocked the holds and I'm so pumped it's all I can do to hang on let alone move.
"Well, I can't do any more but I'll keep hanging on"
- I play around a bit confirming that there really aren't any shake-outs to be found.
"Well okay I know I failed a couple of minutes ago, this is getting boring"
- I lower off the gear.
...
After this, I try to think of the routes as a learning experience. Unfortunately, I am not really learning anything, as I know what mistakes I made and I know the problems I had already. I've failed on lots of routes, and messing up the gear and getting too pumped placing the wrong gear is a fairly common cause. The crux was: I should have just taken the time to get a couple of good pieces in the first place, instead of wasting energy fiddling with poor pieces. Well, I knew that already :?
Oh okay okay, I've thought some more, maybe the crux is to witness that first thought "I need to get some gear in ASAP" or "I need to get a back up piece in ASAP", and learn to NOT ACT on that thought :?
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ikefromla
Nov 16, 2005, 7:55 PM
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There are some very original thoughts in this thread. :roll:
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tallnik
Nov 16, 2005, 8:10 PM
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Thanks Arno, consciously thinking about these things has actually seriously improved my climbing.
Cheers,
Nik
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arnoilgner
Nov 16, 2005, 10:49 PM
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Hello Mr. Fiend,
Learned anything? Perhaps you didn't, as you mentioned. You already knew that you were too pumped. It sounds like you were in a situation where a fall would hurt you. I too like at least two pieces between me and the ground. I guess you could have learned to deal with the stress and pump by staying committed to finding another piece. Somehow you were giving in to placing pieces that wouldn't hold. You did this out of desperation or because you didn't have another piece that would fit. If it was the former (desperation) then you could witness your tendency to become desperate and get anything in to ease the mental stress. If it was the latter (didn't have a piece) then you have a choice: go with one piece or go down and get the correct piece. Either way you are dealing with the situation as well as you can.
But, on well protected sport/trad, listening to a thought like "I knew I was too pumped and couldn't finish the climb" will shut you down when you perhaps could have made it.
arno
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_fiend_
Nov 17, 2005, 12:35 PM
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Thanks for the reply. It is a bit of a tricky one, firstly because there's a lot of issues all happening at once and the most important one is getting the right protection rather than actually moving onwards, and secondly because the "obvious" learning (don't faff around with gear) is something I know already. Although, I don't put it into practice well.
But....
In reply to: Somehow you were giving in to placing pieces that wouldn't hold. You did this out of desperation or because you didn't have another piece that would fit. If it was the former (desperation) then you could witness your tendency to become desperate and get anything in to ease the mental stress.
It was desperation, not to get something in for my current safety's sake (had the first decent cam) but to get something else in quickly to get on with the next moves quickly. Unfortunately it backfired, more haste less speed and all that.
You're right, that's the lesson, to witness myself then (desperation for back-up gear), and work on those thoughts.
(For this case, that is, I'll probably post more experiences when I have them.)
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arnoilgner
Nov 18, 2005, 3:14 PM
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fiend,
your comment:
"You're right, that's the lesson, to witness myself then (desperation for back-up gear), and work on those thoughts."
I don't want to insinuate that you should continue with only one piece between you and the ground. Going down because of safety concerns is valid.
arno
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arnoilgner
Nov 18, 2005, 3:19 PM
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fiend,
your comment:
"You're right, that's the lesson, to witness myself then (desperation for back-up gear), and work on those thoughts. "
I don't want to insinuate that you should continue with only one piece between you and the ground. What you need to observe isn't "your desperation for back-up gear" but "your tendency to be desperate when placing back-up gear." There is nothing wrong with placing back-up gear. It is ineffective, however, to be desperate when placing it.
arno
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oldrnotboldr
Nov 19, 2005, 4:27 PM
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In reply to: desperation for back-up gear
Yes, I've noticed that as well. The more sketchy the move and/or the more pumped I am, the more desperate for placement I get. Consequently, the less dependable the placement gets. Rather than pushing on and trusting a bad placement I have backed off to a solid position to rethink the move, the placements, rest, etc. I learned thehard way taking a hard whipper and turning my back and right side to hamburger once. At that time it was anger that finally pushed bad thoughts aside and got me past the crux move.
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_fiend_
Nov 24, 2005, 9:05 PM
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Well, had the opportunity to try this again, on a quite different route: I chose this route because it had logistically simple and safe climbing with a challenging crux. Oh and because it looked great and good fun to climb too :wink: . Easyish climbing up a steep wall and cracks leads to a good rest, good gear, and the crux - a vertical wall, one large break at chest height, one sloper just above, and distant holds somewhere waaay out of reach.
I get to the break and fill it full of cams.
[brown]Okay, this is the crux, gotta work this out[/brown]
- Various working out manouvers.
- I try the move experimentally. It's a long way and I don't reach the hold.
[brown]Balls that is a long way. Still, I have time to work out how to reach it.[/brown]
- I look at the gear, it's very good. I look at the fall potential. It's quite good, fairly vertical, some small jutting bits but nothing major. I try to tell myself the fall potential is quite good.
[brown]Okay, the fall potential is quite good.[/brown]
- A good thing really as the move is one that is easy to muff and peel off backwards. I try it again.
[brown]Balls that is a long way.[/brown]
...But there is also a small voice, not really a thought more of a feeling, in the back of my mind...
[brown]I don't feel like falling.[/brown]
- I try again...
[brown]Balls that is a long way.[/brown]
[brown]I don't feel like falling.[/brown]
- This is repeated a few times.
[brown]I'm getting cold. Better try harder.[/brown]
- I try harder, udge up a little further, but not quite enough. As I'm reversing again, I peel off and fall onto the gear, all of about a metre.
[brown]@£$&&%**%*%!!!![/brown]
[brown]Okay so I've fallen and failed*. I want to lower off since I haven't onsighted the route. But for a change I'll try the move again and see if the mini-fall has relaxed my inhibition about falling.[/brown]
- I climb a little way up the move again. But I still have the same reluctance about the fall potential and end up escaping off.
------
* I know using the word "fail" is discouraged, but it's the way it is for me. I had the goal of doing the climb, or otherwise falling off trying (rather than resting, escaping, etc). I did neither so I failed in that goal.
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Okay so a different lesson and one which is well covered by RWW I think. Like before, the "surface" learning is one I know already and is not really learning to me: I have (a lot of) difficulty committing to committing moves even when they're safe. And like before, the real learning lies beneath: I have a fear (or reluctance) of falling that holds me back even when I can intellectually see I was safe. (As an aside, I noticed that I was rather overestimating my fall potential in this route, the potential fall length was a lot less than I thought).
One thing this made me aware of that in this recent period, getting back into climbing after an injury, I have trained my familiarity with trad climbing (doing a fair bit of mileage), I've trained my strength and stamina down the wall, but I haven't trained my ability to feel familiar with potential falls. Next wall session: Fall practice :wink:
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flyinglow
Dec 11, 2005, 11:27 PM
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a couple weeks ago i found myself squarely up against my limit mentally and physically. I decided to lead a climb that had scared me as well as been way over my head on my first attempt. to be specific it was the second pitch of trad i ever climbed. a 5.9+ fingercrack in a wide dihedral with an intimidating start.
after climbing the first pitch to the belay anchors i started out with plenty of determination and confidence
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I know i can do this now, my skill is way better than when i was here last year
i walk along the ledge full of loose stuff around the corner and out of sight of my belayer...
-ok, there's a lot of slack out, but this is easy, i have it totally in hand
about 20 feet of 5.7ish climbing up around a bulge and back in sight of my belayer.
-alright, this is freekin scary, time to get a piece in
I get in a couple bomber cams and the slack out of the system(req'd for the first part)and then look up at the meat of the climb: 30 feet of thin fingers and iffy stemming.
-i must be nuts, why am i doing this? nope, this isn't the time for self doubt, the gear's good, just do it.
I pull around the bulge and into the dihedral. start to fiddle in a nut, it sticks in the edge of the crack
-oh s#** i cant get the nut back out, and it's no good. alright, put in another one... ok that one looks good (I clip both, more pro is better)
I then spend several seconds looking at the moves ahead...
-what am i supposed to do here, i can't remember anything, and i'm starting to pump.
a couple trys and downclimbs later(there's a little tiny ledge i can almost stand on at the bottom of the dihedral) i figured out the sequence up to what i think is a jug in the middle of the pitch.
-time to do it, once you get to the jug the rest will be obvious. the jug looks great, and there looks like fixed pro too.
up to the jug, clip the fixed cam, back it up with another good one just to be sure
-uh oh, i don't have much gear that will work on that crack above. alright, you're staring at what amounts to almost an anchor, who cares if you take a 10 footer onto an anchor. OK the gears good, 100%, nothing to worry about. maybe i can reach up and get a piece up a little higher. ok, got in a small tcu, it looks iffy, barely fits in the crack. screw it, the gear below is solid, quit wasting time.
pull hard onto the layback, and stand tall, nothing there... cracks too small for my fingers. i'm holding a difficult position, elvis leg is goin good at this point whole body shaking trying to hold on to my position, i can't reverse my last move, hands starting to slide. desperately looking for hands, something, anything to hang on to.
-there's got to be something here, why did i even get into this(little voice of doubt) there's nothing here at all, it's not gonna happen.
I sag down to my last piece of junk placement. whipped. take a few deep breaths.
-alright, you knew there was a chance of this. don't let it defeat you, somebody else did it, what didn't you try(after a little rest i'm now totally in problem solving mode)
I look hard at the rock in front of me. there's nothing there... there's got to be something.
finally it hits me, a little dish, back behind my earlier position, can't see it from the layback. but it just might be enough to get me back into stemming mode.
-alright, you've got it now. just do it, it looks easier from there up, the wall becomes more featured, stemming should be easy.
I crank into the layback again, this time with a plan.
-still hard, alright, where is it, i know it's there(searching blindly for foothold) whew, got it.
i stand up, and move up a little more. technical stemming, but not too bad. feeling good, i make a couple more moves.
-it sure would be nice to get another piece in here. i don't think i can do that move again. it's a couple moves to the top, just do it, you know you can do it.
I reach high and get up to the ledge, the end of the difficult stuff
-whew it's finally over, i can't believe i just did that. Hey, i really did it! I actually did it!
-------------
next time i'll send it, looking back i spent a lot of energy putting gear in when i was still quite well protected. I also wasted some time fussing with stuff that i shouldn't have any touble getting in(i seem to pick too big a nut on a regular basis, something to work on) if i'd focused a little more on the climbing and route finding, and not wasted so much time on the gear i might have been able to pull the crux the first try.
Confidence is key, the moves i did with confidence went, but careful thought and looking ahead would have allowed me to make the right move the first try, and not just a move to somewhere i was stuck.
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_fiend_
Mar 6, 2006, 10:00 AM
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Two recent routes.
Route 1: Nice steep climbing to a semi-rest, a niche, and then a little overlap with cool flutings, and a blank easy angled and fairly lichenous slab above. Crux is obviously leaving the flutings to gain the slab.
I get up to the rest, then the niche, get some good gear at the bottom of the niche and a so-so friend at the top of it - safe fall potential. I swing out on the flutings (awesome move) and get bridged across the niche.
[brown]"Oooh gosh I didn't expect to get out here so quickly"[/brown]
I feel my position a bit and find it's fairly steady.
[brown]"Okay this is quite stable....but there's not much to hold on to, it's a bit scary here."[/brown]
I look for holds, there really aren't any proper holds.
[brown]"Oh dear, I have no idea how to do this. I hope I can reverse."[/brown]
I feel down the flutings again, they feel okay.
[brown]"Okay, I can reverse, that's good. I'm still a bit scared though."[/brown]
I see a faint scoop and some smears out left.
[brown]"I wonder if I'm supposed to go that way? Hmmm, even if I am I'm not sure how to get there..."[/brown]
I look a bit more and decide to reverse. I rest a bit, and then go back up. I get into a slightly better bridge and can fondle the faint scoop. There's nothing in it.
[brown]"There's nothing in this scoop! I really don't know which way to go."[/brown]
I reverse again and go back up again.
[brown]"Hmmm dammit. I still don't know what to do and what would happen if I try something. I'm quite scared of the fall but also I think I can get off this safely anyway."[/brown]
I reverse again, and after much faffing around, cleanly downclimb to the ground. So, I feel I can go back and try again.
I think this was about a combination of a few things - Being scared of the fall (it was safe, but exposed), not wanting to fall on a route when there's a viable alternative, not actually knowing what would happen (quite different to routes where I can see the move but am still too scared), and also the relatively poor condtion of the route. In the end I'm fairly happy with the decision I made and enjoyed what I'd done of the climb anyway!
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_fiend_
Mar 6, 2006, 10:21 AM
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Route 2: Reasonable wall climbing leads to an area of breaks, good big cams and a rest. Also some good small gear off to one side. Above, the route leads up and left across a smooth wall - no chalk, no obvious route. I move up and left a bit on good crimps and place a couple of small cams, one to the left, one to the right, both in flared slots. I view these as slowing down gear, I don't expect them to hold me. The way above looks tricky and uncertain but I figure out how to do the first move upwards.
I rest a bit and then crank up on the first crimp, gaining a higher slot, both poor cams by my feet, with decent footholds.
"Woah, I'm committed now, still at least I've got a good hold here"
I look closely at the slot I'm hanging on to. I realise I could get a small cam in there but I've used it up.
Dammit, I could get a small cam in there but I've used it up."
I find another decent hold for my left hand, and start exploring my position. I feel up to the next obvious hold. It is a curving sloper where the rock indicated it might be an edge.
[indigo]"Shit"[/indigo]
I'm getting a little pumped and a bit scared and I don't know which way to go. I feel around a bit more and find a little edge on the sloper.
"Okay this might be the move....but I don't know where I'm going and I'm running out of options a bit."
I'm getting a bit more pumped and a lot more scared.
"Shit! What do I do? Try the move and risk a huge fall? Jump off and definitely fall? Can I downclimb? Well at least if I try the fall will be less."
I try to downclimb and manage to do it with some slithering.
"Phew. Okay what now?"
I remember the seam that the slot was in, and get my partner to pass me up some small cams, sliders, and offsets (pretty damn specialist really). I rest, go back up, and after a bit of fiddling, get a decent slider, two good if tiny offsets, and a decent larger offset in the seam.
"That feels a lot, lot better, and as small as the bits are, I actually trust them to fall onto."
I feel the moves again with a lot more confidence.
"Hmmm, I could press on, but I think I'll reverse to clear the pump and then just blast up the top section"
I do exactly that and get up the route fine.
This one, well I will make sure I take my "scary gear rack" with me on such routes more often. That pro made a huge difference to how I was feeling about the route - and being aware of the option to get it in was important. Without that protection....well, I was safe in that the lower gear below the poor cams would have held, but it would have been a 10m fall with stretch, maybe? That's quite a long way for me. I think it was okay that I was scared. I also think I would have done it anyway, once I knew I could reverse, I'd have gone up and down a bit. I suppose the thing to look at is witnessing the fear and using the awareness that the fall, though big, would still be safe - regarding the latter, I think I need to do falling practise on walls as well as overhangs.
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vector
Mar 23, 2006, 4:08 AM
Post #62 of 71
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This is in response to Arno's opening post....
So, I have been running into the pump-out-and-back-off conundrum a good bit lately. I feel like overall I am pushing myself a little bit further in these situations, but tonight at the gym was a particularly bad one for giving in to the pump.
Here are my thoughts when this is happening:
* I am really pumped and it is physically uncomfortable. I want this discomfort to end.*
One of two things tends to follow this.
*Oh, I see what to do, if I move forward there is a better hold/stance and I will have a break*
or
*I can't see the next move/I see it but it is too hard. I am going to take or fall rather than risk going forward without knowing I will succeed.*
One realization from writing down these thoughts is that I typically read the moves better when I am not experiencing the physical discomfort of being pumped. A way to work on this would be to get back into doing Yoga, where you work on mental focus while holding difficult/uncomfortable positions. Any other thoughts?
Henry
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fobnicat
Mar 23, 2006, 5:01 AM
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I have been working a route for about two weeks now, and tonight was the ngiht i finally got it. I have continually hit taht "space" at the same location. My arms are pumped, my feet slipping, hands sweaty and all i can think about is, falling.. Tonight I had to commit.. I got to the same spot all the emotions began pumping but I told myself to just do it. As soon as I became the master of my own fear, everything became quite clear and the dyno I have missed probably 30 times over the last two weeks went as smoothly as any could have gone.. I can still see the myself off the wall, bring my hand in and up for the grab. Everything seemed to move in slow meticulous movement once I mastered my fear.. Once I had the hold, everythign sped back up to normal and I topped out with more adrenaline in my head than blood... I love climbing...
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_fiend_
Apr 19, 2006, 9:46 PM
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I've had quite a few more routes recently where I have pushed myself, been challenged, and managed to push on up the route, occasionally feeling that I might fall, and managing to complete the route (see, I didn't use the word "succeed" :roll: ).
Generally the most prominent "negative" thoughts from these routes involve:
- Uncertainty about the protection. Often it's good enough, but sometimes the routes have been run-out enough to have the potential for scary but not dangerous falls.
- Pressure to get moving because of getting pumped and thus not being able to hold on / place gear, and a worry about running out of strength.
The most prominent "positive" thoughts involve:
- Feeling of comfort with the actual difficulty of the climbing, although it's been challenging I've had a general confidence I can do the moves.
- Recognition that I have maximised whatever protection is available so although the falls could be scary I do not feel the true fear of real danger.
- "Gosh this is bloody good fun" :wink:
As I say I have managed to push on despite the occasional negative thoughts and occasional desire to not continue because of the dauntingness of continuing. I think the things that have encouraged me to push on have been stacking the odds in my favour with careful planning/estimating and maximising protection, and generally being on routes that have something to aim for i.e. there is a clear "break" in the uncertainty of what keeping moving might bring.
Trusting the protection is definitely a key issue...
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arnoilgner
Apr 21, 2006, 8:29 PM
Post #65 of 71
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keep working it fiend. you're developing more awareness. find ways to test trad gear so you can experientially know it will hold. get high on a route and place 3 or 4 pieces in close (about 3 foot section) proximity so that if one blows you have back up.
arno
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_fiend_
Apr 25, 2006, 12:29 PM
Post #66 of 71
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In reply to: keep working it fiend. you're developing more awareness. find ways to test trad gear so you can experientially know it will hold. get high on a route and place 3 or 4 pieces in close (about 3 foot section) proximity so that if one blows you have back up.
Cheers arno, that's something I intend to try sometime soon, when it is appropriate.
I did have a good opportunity a few weeks back, I had just done a route with a thin move to get the juggy top with a couple of perfect wires just by my feet - I could have gone over the top, then reversed to the jugs and dropped - it would have been a reasonable and safe fall, on a smooth slab with nothing to hit and a good amount of rope to absorb the fall.
I will keep my eye out for future opportunities - but making sure they are definitely safe, of course.
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_fiend_
Apr 26, 2006, 10:18 PM
Post #67 of 71
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I climbed today, I was challenged, I paid a bit of attention to my thoughts, and was pleased to note those thoughts included:
"This is stressful. Wait, think RWW. Okay, look around and see what can help you."
and
"This is stressful. Wait, think RWW. Okay, delay a bit before giving up, and see what you can allow to happen."
...I don't think I've managed to conciously think in that way, in response to my thoughts/feelings, much before. This was a new sense of being able to have awareness of what I was thinking AND being able to conciously think in RWW terms in response to those thoughts - probably from rambling on so much on this forum recently.
It's an interesting step.
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spacemonkey07
May 5, 2006, 2:57 AM
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Very interesting topic. It is something I have been busy with for myself. I would like to know other people's thoughts.
I think I ahve quite some experience in controlling my mind. (daily meditation practice helps me keeping my head together in life anyway, so this naturally goes for rockclimbing as well) Mostly then.
I have no problems taking lead falls. (I only do sport climbing anyway) But I find the two voices in your head screaming at you very interesting. I always had the idea that there is only one voice. The voice holding me back, saying that things are not right and that I should stop. And then there is me, who wants to go on. So I try to accept the voice as a warning, and try to use it only for safety checks. (Problems arise when I keep checking already checked things doring the climb, like the tie in knot... they keep me from concentrating on the climbing)
I have noticed another interesting problem, which holds me back sending. When I climb well, I tend to be in the 'zone' as I call it. A sort of meditative state, where you are 100% aware of your body. No thoughts whatsoever... very nice and very good. The problems mostly arive after the crux. I tend to have problems keeping myself together by then. I am pumped, but have thoughts like: "I am going to send the route!" Damn how nice would it be to actually send a 6c! ANd then (of course) I peel off.
I have to keep focussed untill the end of the climb. Maybe I'm overmotivated to finish the route. But my attention span is too short to finish it off the way it started. I also notice that in my first try the routes mostly go really well. After that there is a sort 'dip' untill I have the routes completely wired.
Anyone any training suggestions? I already found that gaining experience helps a lot. (I'm not climbing really long, and consider myself still pretty young at 24) But if I compare with last year. The more experienced I am, the less I seem to fall for the trap of 'pre-victory excitement'
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_fiend_
May 5, 2006, 9:21 AM
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In reply to: I am pumped, but have thoughts like: "I am going to send the route!" Damn how nice would it be to actually send a 6c! ANd then (of course) I peel off. Maybe I'm overmotivated to finish the route.
That would be part of the problem, yes. Focusing too much on the goal rather than on journey you're going through, thus letting attention drift away from the current situation.
Consider what it would be like to be in the same situation but to have thoughts like "What can I do to make the next move?", "What would be the most efficient clipping position for that bolt?", etc etc.
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snops7
May 23, 2006, 5:06 PM
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My response to the questions. These experiences are drawn from recent experiences a few weeks ago. Was on a route at my limit with leading and had pro right below the crux with a clean fall below a roof. Remember being in control as I headed into the crux, found some hands above the roof, and put my foot up and that is when I ran into trouble, hands ran out, and the move was a mantle. Remember thinking my sequence is wrong and kind of committed to it but was frozen mid sequence then came off. A week after was out and ended up toproping a route of same difficulty and was shocked when after 3 burns with about 5minutes between goes didn't come off. Expected to come off of it, but was enlightened when I found the my body possessed the strength to still be in reasonable control. The next week went back to the said route with a new perspective. Flowed up to the crux and got into same position as before semi above the roof, committed, and messed the sequence only rather then freezing made the decision to down climb. Downclimbed in control below the roof until I moved my left foot, only had three points of contact (two good hands and a foot, right was in air). I wasn't aware my right was in the air and then came off. Learned that I could semi-downclimb that grade as before I have never attempted it. It was a logical progression of got up to crux and messed up sequence, then downclimb, however it was an action that was taken, as was pointed out I kept going, making moves albeit in a downward direction as opposed to upward progress. When being in that space is there an acknowledgment when retreat is a better option or should moving upward be making that move or is it that when confronted in that space is it all about movement regardless of direction?
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arnoilgner
May 23, 2006, 9:02 PM
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Hello snops7
Your question: "When being in that space is there an acknowledgment when retreat is a better option or should moving upward be making that move or is it that when confronted in that space is it all about movement regardless of direction?"
I'm not sure if you are in a runout or "safe fall" situation. If you are on well protected sport/trad, where you feel you can respond to a fall safely then there is only one direction once you've committed: up. You'll either make it through or fall. The point is, once you've done the risk assessment and determined you can take the fall safely, then you do not want to listen to your mind once you've committed. You need to trust your body to figure it out.
If you are in a runout situation then you may need to down climb.
arno
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