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ikefromla
Nov 16, 2005, 7:55 PM
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There are some very original thoughts in this thread. :roll:
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tallnik
Nov 16, 2005, 8:10 PM
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Thanks Arno, consciously thinking about these things has actually seriously improved my climbing.
Cheers,
Nik
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arnoilgner
Nov 16, 2005, 10:49 PM
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Hello Mr. Fiend,
Learned anything? Perhaps you didn't, as you mentioned. You already knew that you were too pumped. It sounds like you were in a situation where a fall would hurt you. I too like at least two pieces between me and the ground. I guess you could have learned to deal with the stress and pump by staying committed to finding another piece. Somehow you were giving in to placing pieces that wouldn't hold. You did this out of desperation or because you didn't have another piece that would fit. If it was the former (desperation) then you could witness your tendency to become desperate and get anything in to ease the mental stress. If it was the latter (didn't have a piece) then you have a choice: go with one piece or go down and get the correct piece. Either way you are dealing with the situation as well as you can.
But, on well protected sport/trad, listening to a thought like "I knew I was too pumped and couldn't finish the climb" will shut you down when you perhaps could have made it.
arno
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_fiend_
Nov 17, 2005, 12:35 PM
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Thanks for the reply. It is a bit of a tricky one, firstly because there's a lot of issues all happening at once and the most important one is getting the right protection rather than actually moving onwards, and secondly because the "obvious" learning (don't faff around with gear) is something I know already. Although, I don't put it into practice well.
But....
In reply to: Somehow you were giving in to placing pieces that wouldn't hold. You did this out of desperation or because you didn't have another piece that would fit. If it was the former (desperation) then you could witness your tendency to become desperate and get anything in to ease the mental stress.
It was desperation, not to get something in for my current safety's sake (had the first decent cam) but to get something else in quickly to get on with the next moves quickly. Unfortunately it backfired, more haste less speed and all that.
You're right, that's the lesson, to witness myself then (desperation for back-up gear), and work on those thoughts.
(For this case, that is, I'll probably post more experiences when I have them.)
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arnoilgner
Nov 18, 2005, 3:14 PM
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fiend,
your comment:
"You're right, that's the lesson, to witness myself then (desperation for back-up gear), and work on those thoughts."
I don't want to insinuate that you should continue with only one piece between you and the ground. Going down because of safety concerns is valid.
arno
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arnoilgner
Nov 18, 2005, 3:19 PM
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fiend,
your comment:
"You're right, that's the lesson, to witness myself then (desperation for back-up gear), and work on those thoughts. "
I don't want to insinuate that you should continue with only one piece between you and the ground. What you need to observe isn't "your desperation for back-up gear" but "your tendency to be desperate when placing back-up gear." There is nothing wrong with placing back-up gear. It is ineffective, however, to be desperate when placing it.
arno
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oldrnotboldr
Nov 19, 2005, 4:27 PM
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In reply to: desperation for back-up gear
Yes, I've noticed that as well. The more sketchy the move and/or the more pumped I am, the more desperate for placement I get. Consequently, the less dependable the placement gets. Rather than pushing on and trusting a bad placement I have backed off to a solid position to rethink the move, the placements, rest, etc. I learned thehard way taking a hard whipper and turning my back and right side to hamburger once. At that time it was anger that finally pushed bad thoughts aside and got me past the crux move.
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_fiend_
Nov 24, 2005, 9:05 PM
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Well, had the opportunity to try this again, on a quite different route: I chose this route because it had logistically simple and safe climbing with a challenging crux. Oh and because it looked great and good fun to climb too :wink: . Easyish climbing up a steep wall and cracks leads to a good rest, good gear, and the crux - a vertical wall, one large break at chest height, one sloper just above, and distant holds somewhere waaay out of reach.
I get to the break and fill it full of cams.
[brown]Okay, this is the crux, gotta work this out[/brown]
- Various working out manouvers.
- I try the move experimentally. It's a long way and I don't reach the hold.
[brown]Balls that is a long way. Still, I have time to work out how to reach it.[/brown]
- I look at the gear, it's very good. I look at the fall potential. It's quite good, fairly vertical, some small jutting bits but nothing major. I try to tell myself the fall potential is quite good.
[brown]Okay, the fall potential is quite good.[/brown]
- A good thing really as the move is one that is easy to muff and peel off backwards. I try it again.
[brown]Balls that is a long way.[/brown]
...But there is also a small voice, not really a thought more of a feeling, in the back of my mind...
[brown]I don't feel like falling.[/brown]
- I try again...
[brown]Balls that is a long way.[/brown]
[brown]I don't feel like falling.[/brown]
- This is repeated a few times.
[brown]I'm getting cold. Better try harder.[/brown]
- I try harder, udge up a little further, but not quite enough. As I'm reversing again, I peel off and fall onto the gear, all of about a metre.
[brown]@£$&&%**%*%!!!![/brown]
[brown]Okay so I've fallen and failed*. I want to lower off since I haven't onsighted the route. But for a change I'll try the move again and see if the mini-fall has relaxed my inhibition about falling.[/brown]
- I climb a little way up the move again. But I still have the same reluctance about the fall potential and end up escaping off.
------
* I know using the word "fail" is discouraged, but it's the way it is for me. I had the goal of doing the climb, or otherwise falling off trying (rather than resting, escaping, etc). I did neither so I failed in that goal.
------
Okay so a different lesson and one which is well covered by RWW I think. Like before, the "surface" learning is one I know already and is not really learning to me: I have (a lot of) difficulty committing to committing moves even when they're safe. And like before, the real learning lies beneath: I have a fear (or reluctance) of falling that holds me back even when I can intellectually see I was safe. (As an aside, I noticed that I was rather overestimating my fall potential in this route, the potential fall length was a lot less than I thought).
One thing this made me aware of that in this recent period, getting back into climbing after an injury, I have trained my familiarity with trad climbing (doing a fair bit of mileage), I've trained my strength and stamina down the wall, but I haven't trained my ability to feel familiar with potential falls. Next wall session: Fall practice :wink:
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flyinglow
Dec 11, 2005, 11:27 PM
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a couple weeks ago i found myself squarely up against my limit mentally and physically. I decided to lead a climb that had scared me as well as been way over my head on my first attempt. to be specific it was the second pitch of trad i ever climbed. a 5.9+ fingercrack in a wide dihedral with an intimidating start.
after climbing the first pitch to the belay anchors i started out with plenty of determination and confidence
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I know i can do this now, my skill is way better than when i was here last year
i walk along the ledge full of loose stuff around the corner and out of sight of my belayer...
-ok, there's a lot of slack out, but this is easy, i have it totally in hand
about 20 feet of 5.7ish climbing up around a bulge and back in sight of my belayer.
-alright, this is freekin scary, time to get a piece in
I get in a couple bomber cams and the slack out of the system(req'd for the first part)and then look up at the meat of the climb: 30 feet of thin fingers and iffy stemming.
-i must be nuts, why am i doing this? nope, this isn't the time for self doubt, the gear's good, just do it.
I pull around the bulge and into the dihedral. start to fiddle in a nut, it sticks in the edge of the crack
-oh s#** i cant get the nut back out, and it's no good. alright, put in another one... ok that one looks good (I clip both, more pro is better)
I then spend several seconds looking at the moves ahead...
-what am i supposed to do here, i can't remember anything, and i'm starting to pump.
a couple trys and downclimbs later(there's a little tiny ledge i can almost stand on at the bottom of the dihedral) i figured out the sequence up to what i think is a jug in the middle of the pitch.
-time to do it, once you get to the jug the rest will be obvious. the jug looks great, and there looks like fixed pro too.
up to the jug, clip the fixed cam, back it up with another good one just to be sure
-uh oh, i don't have much gear that will work on that crack above. alright, you're staring at what amounts to almost an anchor, who cares if you take a 10 footer onto an anchor. OK the gears good, 100%, nothing to worry about. maybe i can reach up and get a piece up a little higher. ok, got in a small tcu, it looks iffy, barely fits in the crack. screw it, the gear below is solid, quit wasting time.
pull hard onto the layback, and stand tall, nothing there... cracks too small for my fingers. i'm holding a difficult position, elvis leg is goin good at this point whole body shaking trying to hold on to my position, i can't reverse my last move, hands starting to slide. desperately looking for hands, something, anything to hang on to.
-there's got to be something here, why did i even get into this(little voice of doubt) there's nothing here at all, it's not gonna happen.
I sag down to my last piece of junk placement. whipped. take a few deep breaths.
-alright, you knew there was a chance of this. don't let it defeat you, somebody else did it, what didn't you try(after a little rest i'm now totally in problem solving mode)
I look hard at the rock in front of me. there's nothing there... there's got to be something.
finally it hits me, a little dish, back behind my earlier position, can't see it from the layback. but it just might be enough to get me back into stemming mode.
-alright, you've got it now. just do it, it looks easier from there up, the wall becomes more featured, stemming should be easy.
I crank into the layback again, this time with a plan.
-still hard, alright, where is it, i know it's there(searching blindly for foothold) whew, got it.
i stand up, and move up a little more. technical stemming, but not too bad. feeling good, i make a couple more moves.
-it sure would be nice to get another piece in here. i don't think i can do that move again. it's a couple moves to the top, just do it, you know you can do it.
I reach high and get up to the ledge, the end of the difficult stuff
-whew it's finally over, i can't believe i just did that. Hey, i really did it! I actually did it!
-------------
next time i'll send it, looking back i spent a lot of energy putting gear in when i was still quite well protected. I also wasted some time fussing with stuff that i shouldn't have any touble getting in(i seem to pick too big a nut on a regular basis, something to work on) if i'd focused a little more on the climbing and route finding, and not wasted so much time on the gear i might have been able to pull the crux the first try.
Confidence is key, the moves i did with confidence went, but careful thought and looking ahead would have allowed me to make the right move the first try, and not just a move to somewhere i was stuck.
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_fiend_
Mar 6, 2006, 10:00 AM
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Two recent routes.
Route 1: Nice steep climbing to a semi-rest, a niche, and then a little overlap with cool flutings, and a blank easy angled and fairly lichenous slab above. Crux is obviously leaving the flutings to gain the slab.
I get up to the rest, then the niche, get some good gear at the bottom of the niche and a so-so friend at the top of it - safe fall potential. I swing out on the flutings (awesome move) and get bridged across the niche.
[brown]"Oooh gosh I didn't expect to get out here so quickly"[/brown]
I feel my position a bit and find it's fairly steady.
[brown]"Okay this is quite stable....but there's not much to hold on to, it's a bit scary here."[/brown]
I look for holds, there really aren't any proper holds.
[brown]"Oh dear, I have no idea how to do this. I hope I can reverse."[/brown]
I feel down the flutings again, they feel okay.
[brown]"Okay, I can reverse, that's good. I'm still a bit scared though."[/brown]
I see a faint scoop and some smears out left.
[brown]"I wonder if I'm supposed to go that way? Hmmm, even if I am I'm not sure how to get there..."[/brown]
I look a bit more and decide to reverse. I rest a bit, and then go back up. I get into a slightly better bridge and can fondle the faint scoop. There's nothing in it.
[brown]"There's nothing in this scoop! I really don't know which way to go."[/brown]
I reverse again and go back up again.
[brown]"Hmmm dammit. I still don't know what to do and what would happen if I try something. I'm quite scared of the fall but also I think I can get off this safely anyway."[/brown]
I reverse again, and after much faffing around, cleanly downclimb to the ground. So, I feel I can go back and try again.
I think this was about a combination of a few things - Being scared of the fall (it was safe, but exposed), not wanting to fall on a route when there's a viable alternative, not actually knowing what would happen (quite different to routes where I can see the move but am still too scared), and also the relatively poor condtion of the route. In the end I'm fairly happy with the decision I made and enjoyed what I'd done of the climb anyway!
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_fiend_
Mar 6, 2006, 10:21 AM
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Route 2: Reasonable wall climbing leads to an area of breaks, good big cams and a rest. Also some good small gear off to one side. Above, the route leads up and left across a smooth wall - no chalk, no obvious route. I move up and left a bit on good crimps and place a couple of small cams, one to the left, one to the right, both in flared slots. I view these as slowing down gear, I don't expect them to hold me. The way above looks tricky and uncertain but I figure out how to do the first move upwards.
I rest a bit and then crank up on the first crimp, gaining a higher slot, both poor cams by my feet, with decent footholds.
"Woah, I'm committed now, still at least I've got a good hold here"
I look closely at the slot I'm hanging on to. I realise I could get a small cam in there but I've used it up.
Dammit, I could get a small cam in there but I've used it up."
I find another decent hold for my left hand, and start exploring my position. I feel up to the next obvious hold. It is a curving sloper where the rock indicated it might be an edge.
[indigo]"Shit"[/indigo]
I'm getting a little pumped and a bit scared and I don't know which way to go. I feel around a bit more and find a little edge on the sloper.
"Okay this might be the move....but I don't know where I'm going and I'm running out of options a bit."
I'm getting a bit more pumped and a lot more scared.
"Shit! What do I do? Try the move and risk a huge fall? Jump off and definitely fall? Can I downclimb? Well at least if I try the fall will be less."
I try to downclimb and manage to do it with some slithering.
"Phew. Okay what now?"
I remember the seam that the slot was in, and get my partner to pass me up some small cams, sliders, and offsets (pretty damn specialist really). I rest, go back up, and after a bit of fiddling, get a decent slider, two good if tiny offsets, and a decent larger offset in the seam.
"That feels a lot, lot better, and as small as the bits are, I actually trust them to fall onto."
I feel the moves again with a lot more confidence.
"Hmmm, I could press on, but I think I'll reverse to clear the pump and then just blast up the top section"
I do exactly that and get up the route fine.
This one, well I will make sure I take my "scary gear rack" with me on such routes more often. That pro made a huge difference to how I was feeling about the route - and being aware of the option to get it in was important. Without that protection....well, I was safe in that the lower gear below the poor cams would have held, but it would have been a 10m fall with stretch, maybe? That's quite a long way for me. I think it was okay that I was scared. I also think I would have done it anyway, once I knew I could reverse, I'd have gone up and down a bit. I suppose the thing to look at is witnessing the fear and using the awareness that the fall, though big, would still be safe - regarding the latter, I think I need to do falling practise on walls as well as overhangs.
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vector
Mar 23, 2006, 4:08 AM
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This is in response to Arno's opening post....
So, I have been running into the pump-out-and-back-off conundrum a good bit lately. I feel like overall I am pushing myself a little bit further in these situations, but tonight at the gym was a particularly bad one for giving in to the pump.
Here are my thoughts when this is happening:
* I am really pumped and it is physically uncomfortable. I want this discomfort to end.*
One of two things tends to follow this.
*Oh, I see what to do, if I move forward there is a better hold/stance and I will have a break*
or
*I can't see the next move/I see it but it is too hard. I am going to take or fall rather than risk going forward without knowing I will succeed.*
One realization from writing down these thoughts is that I typically read the moves better when I am not experiencing the physical discomfort of being pumped. A way to work on this would be to get back into doing Yoga, where you work on mental focus while holding difficult/uncomfortable positions. Any other thoughts?
Henry
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fobnicat
Mar 23, 2006, 5:01 AM
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I have been working a route for about two weeks now, and tonight was the ngiht i finally got it. I have continually hit taht "space" at the same location. My arms are pumped, my feet slipping, hands sweaty and all i can think about is, falling.. Tonight I had to commit.. I got to the same spot all the emotions began pumping but I told myself to just do it. As soon as I became the master of my own fear, everything became quite clear and the dyno I have missed probably 30 times over the last two weeks went as smoothly as any could have gone.. I can still see the myself off the wall, bring my hand in and up for the grab. Everything seemed to move in slow meticulous movement once I mastered my fear.. Once I had the hold, everythign sped back up to normal and I topped out with more adrenaline in my head than blood... I love climbing...
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_fiend_
Apr 19, 2006, 9:46 PM
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I've had quite a few more routes recently where I have pushed myself, been challenged, and managed to push on up the route, occasionally feeling that I might fall, and managing to complete the route (see, I didn't use the word "succeed" :roll: ).
Generally the most prominent "negative" thoughts from these routes involve:
- Uncertainty about the protection. Often it's good enough, but sometimes the routes have been run-out enough to have the potential for scary but not dangerous falls.
- Pressure to get moving because of getting pumped and thus not being able to hold on / place gear, and a worry about running out of strength.
The most prominent "positive" thoughts involve:
- Feeling of comfort with the actual difficulty of the climbing, although it's been challenging I've had a general confidence I can do the moves.
- Recognition that I have maximised whatever protection is available so although the falls could be scary I do not feel the true fear of real danger.
- "Gosh this is bloody good fun" :wink:
As I say I have managed to push on despite the occasional negative thoughts and occasional desire to not continue because of the dauntingness of continuing. I think the things that have encouraged me to push on have been stacking the odds in my favour with careful planning/estimating and maximising protection, and generally being on routes that have something to aim for i.e. there is a clear "break" in the uncertainty of what keeping moving might bring.
Trusting the protection is definitely a key issue...
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arnoilgner
Apr 21, 2006, 8:29 PM
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keep working it fiend. you're developing more awareness. find ways to test trad gear so you can experientially know it will hold. get high on a route and place 3 or 4 pieces in close (about 3 foot section) proximity so that if one blows you have back up.
arno
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_fiend_
Apr 25, 2006, 12:29 PM
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In reply to: keep working it fiend. you're developing more awareness. find ways to test trad gear so you can experientially know it will hold. get high on a route and place 3 or 4 pieces in close (about 3 foot section) proximity so that if one blows you have back up.
Cheers arno, that's something I intend to try sometime soon, when it is appropriate.
I did have a good opportunity a few weeks back, I had just done a route with a thin move to get the juggy top with a couple of perfect wires just by my feet - I could have gone over the top, then reversed to the jugs and dropped - it would have been a reasonable and safe fall, on a smooth slab with nothing to hit and a good amount of rope to absorb the fall.
I will keep my eye out for future opportunities - but making sure they are definitely safe, of course.
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_fiend_
Apr 26, 2006, 10:18 PM
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I climbed today, I was challenged, I paid a bit of attention to my thoughts, and was pleased to note those thoughts included:
"This is stressful. Wait, think RWW. Okay, look around and see what can help you."
and
"This is stressful. Wait, think RWW. Okay, delay a bit before giving up, and see what you can allow to happen."
...I don't think I've managed to conciously think in that way, in response to my thoughts/feelings, much before. This was a new sense of being able to have awareness of what I was thinking AND being able to conciously think in RWW terms in response to those thoughts - probably from rambling on so much on this forum recently.
It's an interesting step.
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spacemonkey07
May 5, 2006, 2:57 AM
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Very interesting topic. It is something I have been busy with for myself. I would like to know other people's thoughts.
I think I ahve quite some experience in controlling my mind. (daily meditation practice helps me keeping my head together in life anyway, so this naturally goes for rockclimbing as well) Mostly then.
I have no problems taking lead falls. (I only do sport climbing anyway) But I find the two voices in your head screaming at you very interesting. I always had the idea that there is only one voice. The voice holding me back, saying that things are not right and that I should stop. And then there is me, who wants to go on. So I try to accept the voice as a warning, and try to use it only for safety checks. (Problems arise when I keep checking already checked things doring the climb, like the tie in knot... they keep me from concentrating on the climbing)
I have noticed another interesting problem, which holds me back sending. When I climb well, I tend to be in the 'zone' as I call it. A sort of meditative state, where you are 100% aware of your body. No thoughts whatsoever... very nice and very good. The problems mostly arive after the crux. I tend to have problems keeping myself together by then. I am pumped, but have thoughts like: "I am going to send the route!" Damn how nice would it be to actually send a 6c! ANd then (of course) I peel off.
I have to keep focussed untill the end of the climb. Maybe I'm overmotivated to finish the route. But my attention span is too short to finish it off the way it started. I also notice that in my first try the routes mostly go really well. After that there is a sort 'dip' untill I have the routes completely wired.
Anyone any training suggestions? I already found that gaining experience helps a lot. (I'm not climbing really long, and consider myself still pretty young at 24) But if I compare with last year. The more experienced I am, the less I seem to fall for the trap of 'pre-victory excitement'
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_fiend_
May 5, 2006, 9:21 AM
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In reply to: I am pumped, but have thoughts like: "I am going to send the route!" Damn how nice would it be to actually send a 6c! ANd then (of course) I peel off. Maybe I'm overmotivated to finish the route.
That would be part of the problem, yes. Focusing too much on the goal rather than on journey you're going through, thus letting attention drift away from the current situation.
Consider what it would be like to be in the same situation but to have thoughts like "What can I do to make the next move?", "What would be the most efficient clipping position for that bolt?", etc etc.
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snops7
May 23, 2006, 5:06 PM
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My response to the questions. These experiences are drawn from recent experiences a few weeks ago. Was on a route at my limit with leading and had pro right below the crux with a clean fall below a roof. Remember being in control as I headed into the crux, found some hands above the roof, and put my foot up and that is when I ran into trouble, hands ran out, and the move was a mantle. Remember thinking my sequence is wrong and kind of committed to it but was frozen mid sequence then came off. A week after was out and ended up toproping a route of same difficulty and was shocked when after 3 burns with about 5minutes between goes didn't come off. Expected to come off of it, but was enlightened when I found the my body possessed the strength to still be in reasonable control. The next week went back to the said route with a new perspective. Flowed up to the crux and got into same position as before semi above the roof, committed, and messed the sequence only rather then freezing made the decision to down climb. Downclimbed in control below the roof until I moved my left foot, only had three points of contact (two good hands and a foot, right was in air). I wasn't aware my right was in the air and then came off. Learned that I could semi-downclimb that grade as before I have never attempted it. It was a logical progression of got up to crux and messed up sequence, then downclimb, however it was an action that was taken, as was pointed out I kept going, making moves albeit in a downward direction as opposed to upward progress. When being in that space is there an acknowledgment when retreat is a better option or should moving upward be making that move or is it that when confronted in that space is it all about movement regardless of direction?
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arnoilgner
May 23, 2006, 9:02 PM
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Hello snops7
Your question: "When being in that space is there an acknowledgment when retreat is a better option or should moving upward be making that move or is it that when confronted in that space is it all about movement regardless of direction?"
I'm not sure if you are in a runout or "safe fall" situation. If you are on well protected sport/trad, where you feel you can respond to a fall safely then there is only one direction once you've committed: up. You'll either make it through or fall. The point is, once you've done the risk assessment and determined you can take the fall safely, then you do not want to listen to your mind once you've committed. You need to trust your body to figure it out.
If you are in a runout situation then you may need to down climb.
arno
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