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paganmonkeyboy
Oct 14, 2005, 2:21 PM
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In reply to: My main complaint in regards to trying to work on leading is that fear kills my desire to climb. Does anyone understand what I mean by this? If I get on a route, get sketched, and become paralyzed by fear, I lose my desire to climb. nate
Indeed. And the fear makes me think 'what the hell am I doing up here ?' sometimes as well.
There has been more than one time where things got ugly - off route, bad weather, whatever - and the fear starts to whisper things like 'that's a ledge fall', 'that cam was sketchy' etc...about 2 years back I was knee deep in the grip, totally out beyond comfort, and had an inspirational flash.
"When I get to the belay I'm going to pee my pants. But not until then - at this moment, just execute" - do what you know, and pay attention so deep you aren't even concious of anything else. And the best part is, by the time you pull through it, you don't feel like peeing in your pants any more...
Anyone else ? (one of the best threads in a while, btw :) many thanks...)
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microbarn
Oct 14, 2005, 2:45 PM
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thank you paganmonkeyboy
I had to laugh when I read this. I think your method may work for me because of its distraction value. Peeing is the last thing on my mind when I am sketched. If I can remember this, I would get distracted from my fear. The distraction could be bad because it might take my attention away from the flow of the climb and my body. However, it could help me control the fear followed by directed attention to the climb.
Thanks,
Dan
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microbarn
Oct 14, 2005, 2:58 PM
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I forgot to mention, that your post, paganmonkeyboy, made it clear to me how different everyone's thoughts could be while in a stressful situation.
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paganmonkeyboy
Oct 14, 2005, 3:55 PM
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In reply to: thank you paganmonkeyboy I had to laugh when I read this. I think your method may work for me because of its distraction value. Peeing is the last thing on my mind when I am sketched. If I can remember this, I would get distracted from my fear. The distraction could be bad because it might take my attention away from the flow of the climb and my body. However, it could help me control the fear followed by directed attention to the climb. Thanks, Dan
Most welcome...imho, there is a time and a place to let the fear in/out...standing at the belay is a good spot, fighting the peel twenty feet above the cam that just rotated up so you can see the stem is not the time nor the place. Execute, then brick later :D ymmv, and probably should...
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fungpu
Oct 14, 2005, 4:49 PM
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Most significantly is:
In reply to: And the best part is, by the time you pull through it, you don't feel like peeing in your pants any more...
The real trick is training your mind not to go there when you need to be in the moment most. Easier talked about than done I realize. But, haven't you had a moment when that unfortunate nut below you dislodges and slides 25 ft down the rope, and your next pro is 15 ft past a sketch move :shock: , so you put it out of your mind because you have to and then when you get to your next stance and put that bomber pro in you say 'lovin sweet jesus! if I fell then.......' and you make a note to self about future nut placements, and move on, the moment came and went. But when freaking becomes absolutely unnacceptable, you pull through or die. It's what happens when ordinary people respond (without thinking) in an emergency, and perform heroic acts that they never could have had they thought about it first. Your mind can stay in the present, the art is training that to happen on command.
peace all
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arnoilgner
Oct 17, 2005, 5:19 PM
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Nate,
Everything you are saying indicates that, either consciously or unconsciously, you aren't valuing the learning process. You are too attached to climbing a certain way or to getting to the top. You are losing motivation because you are not getting your expectations met. Just as you pointed out.
You can begin the process of maintaining your desire a few ways.
First, get on your challenging climbs again and watch those thoughts come up. When you are in that space, replace those thoughts with "make another move". Keep saying this and see if your body follows. Your conscious mind can only hold one thought at a time. Put a thought that will keep you focused forward on climbing.
Second, get on moderate toprope climbs with the intention of practicing breathing. Don't get all wrapped up in the climbing and forget to breathe. Simply climb and keep your breathing going constantly.
Third, get on hard toprope climbs and do some speed climbing.
All of these things will break apart your tendency to over think the climbing process, help realign you to learning, and make your climbing flow better.
arno
BTW. My last newsletter topic was on expectations. If you'd like to receive it just email me: warriorsway@mindspring.com
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arnoilgner
Oct 17, 2005, 5:28 PM
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Hi Nik [tallnik],
All those things you mentioned that you say to yourself to "control" your fear is actually directing your attention. Fear is not a state in-and-of-itself. Fear is the result of attention leaking out of the present moment. What you are accomplishing by saying all those, what I call, "problem solving" saying/thoughts is directing attention onto what you need to do to deal with the climbing.
Also, there is a difference between intellectual knowledge and experiential knowledge. You have experiential knowledge about falling on sport but only intellectual knowledge about falling on trad. You will have to gain experiential knowledge about falling on trad to reduce the fear. No, there isn't a magic bullet. You gotta do it to go through it. Make sure you have about three solid pieces within about a one or two foot range as you top piece and catch some air.
enjoy,
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 17, 2005, 5:44 PM
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Hello Danielle,
Here are a few comments and suggestions:
"I usually become scared when I look down directly at the bolt"
Look down anyway. I need to keep reminding folks (me included) that learning is the goal. If you look down and it makes you afraid then look down and see if you can stay in that space. By getting there and staying there you begin to process yourself through whatever is causing the fear and rewriting it out of your experience. We've all heard "face your fears" and perhaps "you can't go around fear; you must go through." Imagine how much more you'll be in the zone if you could look up, sideways, or down when climbing. You need to place your feet when climbing in the zone, don't you???
"the fear of not finding a clipping hold"
There is always a clipping hold. It may be small but it's there. If the route has been done before, there is a clipping hold. So, stop thinking about it that way. Rather, put this thought in your mind when you leave the security of your last bolt and launch into the unknown: "where is my next clip hold?"
I believe your inconsistency (5.9 - 5.12) is due to lack of self confidence. Self confidence is defined as "confidence in the self"--YOU. And, the only way to gain "confidence in YOU" is to value the learning process. "Confidence in YOU" is built by YOU going through learning experiences. What you are saying leads me to believe you are too attached to the numbers or getting to the top of routes. Set learning goals like how to fall effectively, how to down climb, how to commit, how to breathe continuously, etc. There is always something you can practice to overcome fearful situations. Find out what those things are and practice them. These type exercises will grow your experience and give you confidence in Danielle.
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 17, 2005, 5:48 PM
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Hello [fungpu], man you guys/gals have some interesting online names
Congrats on the awareness. It's a continual process, but if we value learning we do make progress in growing our understanding of what we are capable of. Attention in the moment. That is the core of mental fitness.
best,
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 17, 2005, 5:53 PM
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Hey paganmonkeyboy, again, nice name
What you are describing is what many call the internal dialogue that goes on in our head. One voice wants to pull us back into our comfort zone; the other wants us to rise to the challenge. If you've decided you want to take the risk, then let go of the comfort zone voice and utilize the challenge voice. Sounds like you are doing it, and without wetting your pants.
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 17, 2005, 6:05 PM
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fungpu
"It's what happens when ordinary people respond (without thinking) in an emergency, and perform heroic acts that they never could have had they thought about it first. Your mind can stay in the present, the art is training that to happen on command."
What you are referring to is when adrenaline takes over for thinking. I don't think we want to climb like that all the time, although, there will be times when we get into situations where we need to respond this way. But, in general we need to be calmer in our climbing. We can be intense but we don't want to always be fighting for life with such grave consequences, not me anyway.
By the way, the only way to have your mind in the present moment is to not think. That is also one reason these adrenaline events are so powerful--you aren't thinking; you are doing. Putting a thought like "suck it up and do it" will at least focus attention forward on climbing, but it is one step away from being fully present.
To keep attention in the moment on command can be done. It take practice and involves doing climbing exerices that train your body to focus attention. When you are climbing (not resting and assessing) you need to do things with your body to focus attention, not your mind.
arno
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lajhanata
Oct 17, 2005, 6:05 PM
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I usually agree with the idea that hard moves require commitment. When I get wobbly legs on those greasy nubbins below me and it's time for a giant extension to who-knows-what kind of hold I have to put everything out of my head and simply commit or I'll never make it. It's sort of a willpower thing. Still, in the exercise here, that means that I'm busting the hardest moves on a climb that's above my grade. Well guess what, after committing to two or three moves that have me scared sheitless I'm pumped. I usually grease around the fourth hard move. On sport, that's usually fine. Trad's a different story. I recently took a fall and plinked a piece. I fell about thirty feet thinking "I'm dead or worse" before I smashed into my belay partner four feet off the ground. Needless to say my placements improved dramatically afterward, but what I'm trying to say is that it isn't always smart to push your limit. If I had stuck the hold I fell on and then fell a little higher up I would have decked, and yes, I thought I was on bomber gear. Maybe this is a better exercise for sport than for Trad, the stakes aren't quite as high.
That said, the method Arno describes for climbing through fear is absolutely spot on. It can even be used during a fall.
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tallnik
Oct 17, 2005, 7:13 PM
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Arno, thank you for this thread. It's helping my focus while climbing immensely!
Cheers,
Nik
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naw
Oct 18, 2005, 12:20 AM
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Arno, thanks for the response. I think that speed climbing is an interesting suggestion. By "hard" toprope climbs, would you suggest around my redpoint limit, or harder? Also, your response made me think about something else...I'm not sure how strange this sounds but bear with me. It seems like, on longer routes, I get more afraid the higher I climb when leading. Sometimes I attribute this to perhaps an instinctive fear of heights, but sometimes I wonder if it's actually a fear of failure after so much effort. Maybe the closer I get to sending a route, the more afraid I get of trying so hard, making it 90% to the top, and then failing. It seems like sometimes I make myself so nervous as I climb that it builds and builds, and I want to give up the closer I get to the top rather than stay in that state of arousal/nervousness etc. I was out climbing this weekend, and my girlfriend/climbing partner insisted that I take some intentional falls on an overhanging route. It's been awhile since I've taken a good fall. I was terrified of letting go at first, which is strange, but after a few falls I was climbing up and jumping off without any hesitation. Sometimes I wish I could just pop a xanax or something before a hard day of leading. What I really want is just to enjoy leading as much as I enjoy top-roping....I've felt that joy of a good lead before, but it seems like more and more it's replaced with fear. I'd like to look up at a route I'm about to attempt to onsight and think "My goal is to learn a lot from this route," but even if I do, I feel like I'm still subconsciously thinking "I need to send this route...this route is well within my ability." Somehow though, that confidence that a route is well within my ability fades as soon as I get about 30 feet up and my forearms start to feel a little pumped. Suddenly, it's "oh wait, I can't possibly get to the top of this without a take, I'm too pumped already, I screwed the sequence up below, I hesitated too long, etc etc." Thinking about these fears and remembering them after the fact has pushed me to the point where I don't even want to lead most of the time because I'm too afraid of being stuck in that place again, feeling that panic and fear. Usually if I can just force myself to get on the wall and get a couple bolts up, I get into the route and relax a little. It still seems however, that if I encounter anything on the route that intimidates me or confuses me, I fall right back into that panic mindset and start wanting to come down. It seems like lately I'm one big ball of problems, and I just don't understand why. I've led runout mixed routes at stone mountain and sport 12s at the red river gorge without a second thought, so I know I'm capable of better than this. I've got a three week trip to el potrero chico planned in one month, and I'm becoming concerned that I won't be able to perform. I guess I'll just have to look forward to it as an enjoyable experience and not as a time to push my performance. Anyway, thanks for the response and maybe some of you guys understand where I'm coming from with some of this stuff?
nate
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arnoilgner
Oct 18, 2005, 4:44 PM
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Hello lajhanata,
Yes, climbing is dangerous. We do need to practice this on well protected sport and trad climbs where you feel you can respond effectively to a fall. On well protected trad, I like to put two pieces below difficult sections to insure I won't fall a longer way if one piece pulls. This not only helps reduce chances of injury should a piece pull but also give a little more confidence to commit forward.
Thanks for your post.
arno
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arnoilgner
Oct 18, 2005, 5:00 PM
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Hi Nate,
"By 'hard' toprope climbs, would you suggest around my redpoint limit, or harder?"
**Begin with routes below your limit, then at your limit, and then above your limit. See what happens.
"It seems like, on longer routes, I get more afraid the higher I climb when leading. Sometimes I attribute this to perhaps an instinctive fear of heights, but sometimes I wonder if it's actually a fear of failure after so much effort."
**Fear can come from many sources. There could be some fear of heights and some fear of failure. For the latter, be honest with yourself about what you value. Do you truly value learning or the end-result? There is no fear of failure when you value learning because each outcome is an opportunity for learning.
"Sometimes I wish I could just pop a xanax or something before a hard day of leading."
**That is everyone's tendency. Sorry, no magic pills or silver bullets.
"I'd like to look up at a route I'm about to attempt to onsight and think 'My goal is to learn a lot from this route,' but even if I do, I feel like I'm still subconsciously thinking 'I need to send this route...this route is well within my ability.'"
**It takes time to rewrite what you value. But, you begin by intentionally and consciously doing things that value learning. When you go to onsight a route eliminate both thoughts and replace with: "Where are the rests; where are the difficult sections; what is the fall consequence; can I respond to the fall consequence; what will I do to rise to this challenge; etc." Keep attention on those things that you WILL DO to rise to the onsight. Remember, "learning" is the result of actions you take. So, it is helpful to begin by saying "my goal is to learn a lot from this route" but then you need to focus attention on what you will do so you can learn.
arno
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degaine
Oct 21, 2005, 12:29 PM
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In reply to: Keep attention on those things that you WILL DO to rise to the onsight. Remember, "learning" is the result of actions you take. So, it is helpful to begin by saying "my goal is to learn a lot from this route" but then you need to focus attention on what you will do so you can learn. arno
Interesting point. When tree skiing, I tell friends to look at the white areas between the trees instead of at the trees themselves - in other words, look where you CAN ski rather than where you can't ski.
I certainly to apply this to climbing and need to focus more on the moves and my upward progress when climbing than on the big "what if I can't..." It's like programming my own failure from the start.
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naw
Oct 22, 2005, 12:50 AM
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Arno, thanks for you reply to my posts. I tried some speed climbing at the gym the other night, and was very happy with the results. I did a couple of routes I usually warm up/cool down on, and was pleasantly suprised by the fact that I was significantly less pumped at the top than I was when I climbed them regularly. I think it really sheds light on the fact that I've been climbing far too statically, wasting time, etc. I was reading your book last night and I came across a section about power sink (or I was it power leaks, I can't remember), and one of the examples you discussed was overchalking. I realized I've been wasting a lot of time sitting at good holds and chalking my hands instead of just moving through the route. I think I've been struggling to make every move on a route 100% safe instead of moving confidently...maybe this is a manifestation of my fear of falling? I admire static technique and some of my favorite climbers to watch are those that seem to float up the rock with no effort, but I think that I've gotten too wrapped up in this style of climbing and it's having a very negative impact on my flow, and definitely giving me too much time to second guess my movement. I think I have some mental issues going on as well; feelings of competition with those around me and fear of falling in particular. I'll have to work on these, but the speed climbing has definitely helped with the physical aspects of my lack of confidence. I'm thinking about starting my warmup with some lead falls as you recommend in your book. Has anyone else had success with this? Thanks again for the advice. I'm not sure if you would remember me, but I've met you a couple of times. My girlfriend Sandy and I took your day clinic at the New some months back, and we saw you at the Red again a couple weeks after that. Thanks for the advice you've given both of us and hope to run into you again soon.
nate
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fungpu
Oct 25, 2005, 5:26 PM
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Hi,
Few interesting experiences. Climbed some hard (10d) sport routes the other day, one I definitely fell repeatedly at the crux, but used what I've learned about 'listening' to see the moves that ultimately pulled me through. Very Cool.
Other one was a trad route with a runout, poorly protected description in the guide. On this one, I was very cautious. I over-thought every part. When I finished, I thought it protected well, and didn't see it as run out. It was well within my ability (5.8). I wasn't necessarily disappointed by taking so long, but probably could have enjoyed it more if I were more in the moment. I found it interesting how much influence the route description had on my climbing because it told me what to expect.
By the way, the route is avoided by others because of the description, and I had avoided it for years. It's really a kick ass route, and I'd do it again any day. Now I'm thinking of all the other routes I've passed up for the same reason.
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arnoilgner
Oct 28, 2005, 1:26 AM
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Hi fungpu
Yes, if we can find a way to engage and allow the experience to clarify the truth of the situation then we'll go much further than allowing a guidebook or other people's perception to determine ours.
Enjoy all those other routes now...
arno
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tallnik
Oct 31, 2005, 1:10 AM
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In reply to: Hi Nik [tallnik], Also, there is a difference between intellectual knowledge and experiential knowledge. You have experiential knowledge about falling on sport but only intellectual knowledge about falling on trad. You will have to gain experiential knowledge about falling on trad to reduce the fear. No, there isn't a magic bullet. You gotta do it to go through it. Make sure you have about three solid pieces within about a one or two foot range as you top piece and catch some air. enjoy, arno
So, today I logged some air time. I was 25 feet up on a 5.8+ finger crack, with two solid pieces below me (a thumb sized cam from Rock Empire, and a Wild Country Zero number 6), and was about 6 feet above the WC, trying to move into a good stance in the next move or two to place gear, when my right foot which I was smearing on the face with blew. In falling I caught my feet on the rock, and ended upside down. 15ft below where I had originally been standing. My first thought was "HOLY COW, the piece held... IT WORKS!!!" and then "stupid you for not falling cleanly." I really hadn't been expecting to pop, and the body position I was in resulted in me tumbling head over heels. I was shocked that the piece had held, that I wasn't hurt, and kind of sheepish but happy. I asked my partner to lower me the remaining 10feet, and when I got down, I was so full of emotions which weren't in tune with being focused to finish the pitch so I asked my parter to finish this pitch and I would do a later one higher up.
So now we're on the third and final pitch, again a 5.8+ and the rack's in my hands again. I leave the belay station, place one nut, I'm feeling ok, and then as the climbing started to get harder, I couldn't focus, I was so scared of popping and landing on that nut I'd placed. I couldn't stop sweating and was greasing out of the jams. I was trying to place a piece, and then get into a stance to take a rest so I could get myself back together. However, the cam I grabbed was the wrong size, and was too open in the crack. I was freaking out by this point, and couldn't contemplate taking it back out, and then putting the right size in. I was really uncomfortable, and so I told my partner I was climbing back to the belay station. I didn't have the head for the lead. Even though I knew the piece below me was good... I couldn't keep going. Aghh... I feel like I should have gotten back on that first climb where I bailed and climbed through where I fell.
On a side note, it felt really good to have a place I placed catch me. I was once again affirmed in my love for helmets. (although I didn't hit my head, I was still grateful for the lid). And my climbing partner said my placements were excellent. Considering he's a solid climber with a good safety sense and tons more experience, it felt really good to hear.
My plan is to log some more pitches pushing my limits, and I'll probably be landing on some more gear in the future. On sport I'm in the mid 10s now, and so I find it funny that mentally (and partially due to needing to refine crack technique) I'm held back to a limit of 5.8+-5.9- on trad.
Thoughts Arno?
Cheers,
Nik
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wonderwoman
Nov 15, 2005, 1:46 PM
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Arno, thanks for starting this post. I feel like your book has really helped me find ways to challenge my fears and become a more focused climber. This past June someone gave me a journal. Combining that random gift with recently having read your book, I was inspired to keep a climbing journal and write down what was going through my head while on leads that scared me, and to develop goals for myself and even tick lists for climbs that I think may challenge me.
What I have found is that there is a shrieking voice inside my head (very similar to my mother's voice :shock: ) that tells me of impending doom or gives me any reason in the world why I can't make the move. It tells me that the rope is behind my leg when it clearly isn't (I learned that lesson the hard way and carry that with me on every climb) or that I'm lost on a trad route or that I'm going to get to the top and find the anchors have been chopped. It gives me every reason to bail or even quit climbing all together.
So I have been writing it all down which has helped me realize how silly that harsh voice sounds (sorry mom!). Now I am picking out climbs that I know will challenge me (long climbs, 'scary'climbs, etc.) before we go out to an area. I am finding that I am enjoying climbing more now than ever and am now setting goals for myself instead of only setting limits.
Thanks for your help. I'm really glad to have read your book.
Tiff
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arnoilgner
Nov 15, 2005, 9:48 PM
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Hi Nik,
Was gone so couldn't reply earlier. Anyway, I guess you got some experiential knowledge. I wouldn't trust a cam that is too open though. Don't compromise the placement. Place something solid or don't proceed. You won't trust the gear otherwise and if you do and fall it will probably pull which is not conducive to a learning situation.
If you pull the wrong sized piece off your rack then simply stay problem solving focused. Put it back and get another one. If you are freakin then acknowledge where your last piece is, visualize the fall to make sure you could respond should you fall before you get the piece in, and then refocus on putting in the piece. Oh yes, breathe.
arno
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arnoilgner
Nov 15, 2005, 9:58 PM
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Hello Tiff (wonderwoman),
How could anyone with a name like wonderwoman have any problems? I know what you mean about the voices, although it probably should concern you that it sounds like your Mom. Anyway, we generally have two voices in our heads--the one that wants to keep us safe and the one that wants us to rise to the challenge. These two voices is/are why folks refer to this chatter as inner dialogue.
There isn't anything bad about this limiting talk. Its intent is to keep us safe. So, before engaging a challenging climb make sure you can respond to the fall consequence (keep you safe). If you feel you can respond to whatever the challenge is then the limiting voice has less merit.
Best way to deal with this dialogue is to be the witness/observer. Notice the limiting talk and know that you don't have to listen to it, but can rather listen to the empowering talk.
arno
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_fiend_
Nov 16, 2005, 6:46 PM
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Well I tried this today, on a route that's not at my limit but was challenging enough for me to have the potential to fuck it right up.
I climbed a lower flake to a committing move onto a slopey - and distinctly uncomfortable - break. At this point I had to place crucial protection and then make two tricky moves to finish. This is where the stress began, and my thoughts were roughly as follows:
"I need a bit of protection ASAP as I'm close enough to the ground that the gear by my feet might not protect me" (this wasn't an unreasonable thought - looking at the route later on I'd have been only a metre or two above the ground if I'd fallen at that point)
- I hurriedly place a cam.
"This break is very slopey and doesn't have the handjams I'd hoped for"
"That cam is okay, but I need to place another good bit of protection before doing the crux finish" (a reasonable thought, I always want two good pieces between me and the ground)
- I try to place another cam that is just too large for an otherwise good placement.
"Bollox!"
- I fiddle more with the useless cam placement whilst starting to get pumped.
- I then give up on the cam and have a look at the other possibilities. They are harder to place and partially blocked by the cams. I am now getting distinctly more pumped.
"I am too pumped to continue to hang on, place a proper piece of protection, work out the next moves and do them - I know now that I cannot complete this climb" (a negative thought but probably an accurate one - a fair estimate of how quickly I was getting pumped and how much was still to be done)
- I fiddle a hex in a non-placement that's resting behind the decent cam.
"That is rubbish. I've really fucked up placing a second bit of pro"
"Okay, so I'm in this situation of stress and pump and discomfort and inability to continue. I will keep sticking around to record my thoughts and see what happens" (really, quite futile, as I already know I can't continue)
- I hang around some more, trying to get any possible rest or shake-out, but there isn't any.
- I finally fiddle in a good solid hex.
- I have a brief look at the moves past the gear, but the excess amount of shoddy gear has blocked the holds and I'm so pumped it's all I can do to hang on let alone move.
"Well, I can't do any more but I'll keep hanging on"
- I play around a bit confirming that there really aren't any shake-outs to be found.
"Well okay I know I failed a couple of minutes ago, this is getting boring"
- I lower off the gear.
...
After this, I try to think of the routes as a learning experience. Unfortunately, I am not really learning anything, as I know what mistakes I made and I know the problems I had already. I've failed on lots of routes, and messing up the gear and getting too pumped placing the wrong gear is a fairly common cause. The crux was: I should have just taken the time to get a couple of good pieces in the first place, instead of wasting energy fiddling with poor pieces. Well, I knew that already :?
Oh okay okay, I've thought some more, maybe the crux is to witness that first thought "I need to get some gear in ASAP" or "I need to get a back up piece in ASAP", and learn to NOT ACT on that thought :?
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