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dilettante
Oct 25, 2005, 2:18 AM
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if you can get out to the new river gorge there are some fun, safe climbs within your range. at summersville there i've done some good .7s, .8s, and .9s. there arent a ton of them because sport climbs tends to cluster in the 10s and higher. that's not a big deal though because once you know what you're doing, it's ok to fall and you can try harder stuff.
you just need to learn how to clip properly and a few other things so you can go to town with sport climbing. just like learning to belay and TR, these concepts aren't hard but they are crucial. take a class or ask someone you trust to show you how. remember that just because someone owns a gym or acts like they know what they're talking about, doesn't necessarily make it so...
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deltav
Oct 25, 2005, 2:28 AM
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Just to restore my good name...Stevep quoted my OP and put his 2cents in about back clipping not being to bad. Trust me, I definitely know the dangers of back clipping.
And BTW, while Freedom of the Hills is a great book it is not the answer for everything
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squierbypetzl
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Oct 25, 2005, 4:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: While backclipping is annoying, it's generally not going to get you in to the obituaries. At worst you get stuck and lowered very slowly. Of dangerous things one needs to know about lead climbing, backclipping is a ways down the list. This shows me that YOU do not know what backclipping is. If you backclip and fall on it, the rope can come upclipped. That doesn't seem dangerous to you? You are descibing z-clipping. Please do not give advice if you don't know what you are talking about. Josh
At WORST the rope can open the gate for half a milisecond and your weight can break the carabiner, the broken pieces of which would stab into your belayers hands, causing him to lose grip on the rope, and since he was using a body belay (ie no device) you then proceed to plummet down the rest of the 16th pitch, then the 15th and 14th, then the 13th, and so forth... untill you finally come to a stop (see: Instant Deceleration Syndrome) in the middle of a televised benefit picnic for orphans with leukemia. So backclipping I guess isn´t all that far down the list.
Z-clipping can be just as bad or worse. If you don´t notice it and your belayer doesn´t either, you can climb right past and, should you fall, your fall factor would increase significantly...
New climbers, don´t be scared by the above. Things are a lot scarier in the begining before you know what´s what. Don´t worry :wink:
PS: it´s never too early to start sport climbing. Sport leading takes just a little longer though (not necesarrily much).
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squierbypetzl
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Oct 25, 2005, 4:48 AM
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In reply to: youve been climbing a year and can only TR 5.9. im not trying to be mean but isnt that a little low. i mean ive been climbing about a year and am comfortable climbing mid-high 10's topping out at 11b. i dont know if you are trying harder routes but if you arent i advise you do. work on them if you fall.
How productive.
Was going to flame you, not really worth it (your end remarks saved you today).
Everyone progresses at their own rate, be it 5.8 to 5.9 in a year or 11a to 13d in a month (not gonna happen). "The journey is the destination, man" and don´t let ´em tell you different.
In reply to: ... Wow, are you serious? I'm sorry but I climb MAYBE once every two weeks? I don't belong to a climbing gym and climb 3-4 times a week as many hardcore climbers do. I apologize for being at a top school that requires probably 60-70 hours a week of work, and now having a top job that also requires 60-70 hours a week of work. You really had nothing better to say than that? I appreciate the advice. I guess since I don't climb a 5.11b I ought to just quit, right? Jackass.
Wow. You may want to take a few hours off from your top job before you end up in a top psych ward. Chill... :)
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kricir
Oct 25, 2005, 6:38 AM
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Back to the question of whether or not you should start sporting a # or two below your top rope grade. If this (I assume it is) will be your first outdoor lead, then yes. Just intill you become confident in the system of sport climbing, and adjust to leading on real rock. By that I mean for no more than like, 3 pitches.
Leading at or above your perceived “number ability” is a difficult mental barrier to get through, especially trad or alpine climbing. Once you do this, climbing will take on new levels of fun. Sense you chose to start with sport leading (I was not so smart) I’d say go for it. On one of those, “practice pitches” get comfortable with the idea of falling. In fact, find a route that is very safe to fall of off, (good rock, steep grade, make sure you won’t swing into anything) and take a few practice whippers. Don’t worry, your rope can actually handle hundreds of these short falls, just make sure you have a good amount of rope out. And don't take little 4 ft pussy falls, get in some quality 15 ft’ers. If you feel really scared and even start shaking after/before your first fall or so, don’t worry, this is natural. After a wile you wont even notices falls. Soon you will know that even if you throw your self at a 5.13, the system will work and you won’t get hurt.
Oh, I know this is a long post, but I must add, back-clipping is in theory dangerous, and whether or not it is a real killer is just a guess. But if anything, learn what it is and how to avoid it, because even if it does not get you hurt, it is bad technique. I think the climbers out there who have long, healthy lives are the ones who make really safe technique a habit, and live by it 100% of the time. Remember, even pros have rapped off the end of their ropes.
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kricir
Oct 25, 2005, 6:51 AM
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I also wanted to add, grades are a good way of tracking progress, but the system as we know it is bulls%$#. Iv been on 5.8's that are harder then 5.10's. Oh and think about this, If you could climb 5.8-9 35-40 years ago, you would be a god. It sounds like you are just unsure of things. I say, get out there and figure them out like the rest of us did!
Good luck.
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daithi
Oct 25, 2005, 11:26 AM
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In reply to: If this (I assume it is) will be your first outdoor lead, then yes. Just intill you become confident in the system of sport climbing, and adjust to leading on real rock. By that I mean for no more than like, 3 pitches.
:D I can't believe you mentioned multipitch in any context with his first lead! Methinks he will have enough to worry about leading a single pitch!
dc_climber23, as others have mentioned the problem is not climbing at an insufficient level to start leading but a lack of knowledge. Leading a sports climb is not that difficult (at least from a gear point of view!) and there is not that much that you need to learn. If you know what back clipping is, z-clipping and how to clean an anchor (depending on what type of anchors are at your local crag), I reckon you would be good to go.
You can get all this from a good book (say one of John Long's books) but it will save you time and effort if you get someone to show you. I'm sure someone at your local gym will show you. It shouldn't take long. To anyone who is remotely mechanically minded a lot of it is intuitive.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 25, 2005, 12:55 PM
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In reply to: Z-clipping can be just as bad or worse. If you don´t notice it and your belayer doesn´t either, you can climb right past and, should you fall, your fall factor would increase significantly...
Oh, I can pretty much guarantee that you would notice it. It would suddenly feel like you are carrying a mack truck up with you. So, unless you consistently compete in the World's Strongest Man competition, I think it is safe to say it would be a noticable change.
Backclipping, on the other hand, can go unnoticed, unless you have a very attentive belayer looking for it.
Josh
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jeldship
Oct 25, 2005, 1:04 PM
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roniravia
Oct 25, 2005, 1:24 PM
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I think you can start leading sport regardless of your level. It's whether you will enjoy it that's the question.
I have pressured myself to get into leading before I was ready and what happened is that I was extremely terrified and lost all of the fun I got from climbing. I came back to top-rope. Improved my technique and then I found the transition much smoother and today I feel much more confident to lead routes.
I would suggest you to start leading in the gym first (of course as you have mentioned, take some lessons before) and see how you feel. If you like it and it makes you feel good - then you know it's the right choice for you and you can gradually start doing it outside too.
If you feel too shaky and too hysterical (and I mean REALLY afraid not just a little because being afraid when you start leading is normal) then be patient and try again in a few months after working more on your technique and endurance.
Hope it helps. Good luck!
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redpoint73
Oct 25, 2005, 1:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Z-clipping can be just as bad or worse. If you don´t notice it and your belayer doesn´t either, you can climb right past and, should you fall, your fall factor would increase significantly... Oh, I can pretty much guarantee that you would notice it. It would suddenly feel like you are carrying a mack truck up with you. So, unless you consistently compete in the World's Strongest Man competition, I think it is safe to say it would be a noticable change. Josh
More importantly, if you didn't notice that you z-clipped, than you probably are not realizing that you are falling down to the lower bolt if you do fall (i.e.: You will think you are safe, because your just clipped - which is wrong). Not only are you falling farther, but you can deck.
Another tip: If you do need to fix a backclip or a z-clip, and you are gripped out, clip a new draw to the bolt. Clip the rope in the correct way to the new draw. Then clean the previous ('wrong') draw. Don't try to just unclip and reclip, unless you have a good stance and are sure you can. Remember, you are going to have tons of slack out, especially if you are fixing a Z. I saw a newer climber attempt this after backclipping, fumbled around, and fell while the rope was not clipped in. He took a 30+ foot whipper and came REAL close to decking.
Its an extra step, I know. But its not worth decking just to fix a backclip, if there is a safer way to do it. Alternately, if you are backclipped, you can just throw a 2nd draw on the bolt, with the gate opposing the gate on the first draw. The just leave both draws. This assumes you are smart and carrying at least one extra draw. Of course, this won't work on a Z.
A side note. I saw a doofus backclip, realize it, then try to put an extra draw on the bolt (similar to what I just described). But he put the 2nd draw on the exact same way as the 1st one, gate facing the same direction and also backclipped. Of course, this doesn't help much at all.
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singin_rocker
Oct 25, 2005, 1:46 PM
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My $.02:
Make sure you learn safety. If you don't feel safe with whoever teaches you, this should be a warning sign. There is lot's to learn about leading outdoors in a less controlled environment that it's important to be sure that you are getting experienced and educated advice instead of some hot-shot joker. You need to learn the importance of dynamic belaying (your partner does for sure) and how to make decisions if you think you are getting in over your head. All things are never equal and you have to be able to do your own problem solving.
That said. Lead climbing is wonderful. Learn to do it well and safely.
Waylan
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jdouble
Oct 25, 2005, 2:08 PM
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This thread is more dangereous than sport climbing.
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markc
Oct 25, 2005, 2:16 PM
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In reply to: Another tip: If you do need to fix a backclip or a z-clip, and you are gripped out, clip a new draw to the bolt. Clip the rope in the correct way to the new draw. Then clean the previous ('wrong') draw. Don't try to just unclip and reclip, unless you have a good stance and are sure you can. Remember, you are going to have tons of slack out, especially if you are fixing a Z. I saw a newer climber attempt this after backclipping, fumbled around, and fell while the rope was not clipped in. He took a 30+ foot whipper and came REAL close to decking.
Good advice. There was a recent thread about this very thing. A new climber backclipped on the first bolt of a route and fell on his partner (who was spotting him) while trying to correct the problem.
I have to say I've never climbed anywhere where z-clipping was a real possibility. Bolts have to be placed extremely close together in order to manage it. It's still useful to know what it is for those rare instances where there's an opportunity.
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jt512
Oct 25, 2005, 3:14 PM
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In reply to: This thread is more dangereous than sport climbing.
It's the webcast edition of the Gumby Show.
-Jay
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bigevilgrape
Oct 25, 2005, 3:18 PM
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I've seen one zed clip in my life, and if i hadn't just watched him do it I would have done the same thing. If you zed clip you should be able to reach down and unclip the first bolt if you arnt comforitable trying to fix your clip.
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squierbypetzl
Moderator
Oct 25, 2005, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Z-clipping can be just as bad or worse. If you don´t notice it and your belayer doesn´t either, you can climb right past and, should you fall, your fall factor would increase significantly... Oh, I can pretty much guarantee that you would notice it. It would suddenly feel like you are carrying a mack truck up with you. So, unless you consistently compete in the World's Strongest Man competition, I think it is safe to say it would be a noticable change. Backclipping, on the other hand, can go unnoticed, unless you have a very attentive belayer looking for it. Josh
I agree for the most part. But if you didn´t notice it...
In reply to: More importantly, if you didn't notice that you z-clipped, than you probably are not realizing that you are falling down to the lower bolt if you do fall (i.e.: You will think you are safe, because your just clipped - which is wrong). Not only are you falling farther, but you can deck.
That´s what I meant to convey, but I was thinking more of falling against the edge of a roof or ledge that you thought you´d cleared...
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redpoint73
Oct 25, 2005, 7:32 PM
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In reply to: I have to say I've never climbed anywhere where z-clipping was a real possibility. Bolts have to be placed extremely close together in order to manage it. It's still useful to know what it is for those rare instances where there's an opportunity.
Bolts tend to get closer together with increasing difficulty. Also, it varies vastly by climbing area. For instance, at Rumney its a definate possibility. In Potrero and Spain, much less so since the bolts are often 15-20 ft. apart.
In reply to: If you zed clip you should be able to reach down and unclip the first bolt if you arnt comforitable trying to fix your clip.
True.
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lux39
Nov 12, 2005, 9:02 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: youve been climbing a year and can only TR 5.9. im not trying to be mean but isnt that a little low. i mean ive been climbing about a year and am comfortable climbing mid-high 10's topping out at 11b. i dont know if you are trying harder routes but if you arent i advise you do. work on them if you fall. as to the question are you good enough to start sport climbing. as long as you feel comfortable on the route and have confidence in gear and belayer then you are ready. thats mean, rude, ect. everyone gets learns at diffrent rate, no go home and have your mother teach you some manners. |
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cruzit
Nov 13, 2005, 10:12 PM
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Some good advice, some bad advice, and some stuff I've yet to figure out.
If you are climbing at the 5.9 level, you are ready to learn to sport or trad lead. I personally climb at best at the 5.10/5.11 level on top-rope (and...yes, I've been climbing for 5 years and that's the best I can do), but I started leading when I was climbing about 5.8 level.
There are many, many great leads at or below 5.8. My personal experience with sport leads is that after you are comfortable and experienced leading, you will be able to sport lead several levels higher than you trad lead. It's not that sport leads are all soft, its just that it's a lot easier to slap a quickdraw in a bolt than to figure out which cam or nut to place in a crack or pocket, then to place it. That is why most trad leaders usually lead several levels lower than what they can comfortably climb.
I sport lead closer to what I can actually climb, but still my best sport lead to date was a 5.9. My hardest trad climb to date was a 5.8 whereupon I was gripped as hell on and almost swore off leading.
Good luck.
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oldsalt
Dec 23, 2007, 3:14 AM
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Given: People should do searches before starting the 50th thread on a well-worn topic.
I am resurrecting this one because it gets at something that really bugs me about lead climbers as a group. There are actually two groups...
One says that leading is only for climbers with advanced climbing skills, and the other says that leading is only for climbers with advanced technical knowledge, regardless of how hard they climb.
Based upon the way I phrased the above, guess which group I am in.
Some gyms require that you climb at least 5.9 or 5.10 before you are eligible to learn to lead. I was allowed to take the lead class while working on 5.6s and 5.7s.
I see no connection between grade and safety. There are many excellent routes out there for the leading, sport and trad, that are less than 5.9.
I would see connections if a 5.10 fall was inherently more dangerous than a 5.5 fall. I would say that the 5.10 fall was more likely, but many of the 5.4 to 5.7 routes that I have been on offered more dangerous falls - slabby, ledged, etc.
I will say that in my opinion, thinking that only hardmen can (or should) lead is Neanderthal and is associated with penis envy.
Why should someone be able to climb 5.10 before learning to lead (other than an insurance requirement)? Anyone?
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justafurnaceman
Dec 24, 2007, 2:37 AM
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It's not necessary to be able to climb 5.10+ before lead climbing. I did it when I was climbing 5.9 and I'm teaching my friends who are climbing 5.8.
Again. Lead climb whenever you feel up to the challenge of doing something new.
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andrewbanandrew
Dec 24, 2007, 3:07 AM
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[quote "jt512"][quote]What is backclipping?[/quote]
It's something, the ignorance of which, indicates that you should not be leading.
-Jay[/quote]
hey at least he's askin questions
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dj69
Dec 24, 2007, 4:11 AM
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I started sport climbing (indoors) last jan when i was 14 and TR'ing 5.8. The only trouble i had was finding someone willing to give me a course due to my age.
My advice to you would be to take a course indoors, the gyms a safe place to learn, plus once you can lead, i would suggest that you lead as much as easy stuff as possible just to get a feel for it. Basically if you can lead it and it's in your TR onsight level, then lead it, that way you loose the fear that alot at people have when they first start.
Commitment is what holds me back the most, however my onsight level on lead is slowly getting better, as i am getting more experienced.
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snoopy138
Dec 24, 2007, 4:47 AM
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[filler]
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