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jbone
Aug 7, 2002, 9:14 PM
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DO other Climbing scenes have their Villans?
We in Arizona have a few, Deidre Burton is one. She is looked down on for her actions at Jacks Canyon about projects over the last few years. I'm sure I am referred to as a villan for some of my Videotaping...
How about that dude back East who chops all the bolts in the north east crags?
How about here on the site? Anyone you need to watch out for? Sometimes these examples help demonstrate the reasoning behind ethics in regions.
Takes some gut's to respond to this one..
J-Bone
"Friendly neighborhood villan"
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itsallvbtillyoufall
Aug 7, 2002, 9:18 PM
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"DO other Climbing scenes have their Villans? "
What do you mean villans? Like people that sabatoge routs or holds? Peolpe that try to hurt you while climbing?
One place I climb, there are some cholos that hate whiteboys. That can be hard getting to the area at times.
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c_plante
Aug 7, 2002, 9:48 PM
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Anyone who climbs at joe rockheads in toronto canada is evil in my books. I've been there twice, and never again. THe people there are just too rude, maybe not villainous per se.
christian
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aid312
Aug 7, 2002, 10:01 PM
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Up here in the Northeast we have a guy that chops every bolt in sight. This is the same guy that jbone was talking about. His name is Ken Nichols. From what I have heard he has chopped bolts at a majority of the climbing areas up here. The thing about it is he had actually published a guide book when there were still bolts on the climbs and noted the bolts in the book.
Shortly after the book was published he went out and chopped them all.
He has stated to some people that if he sees any of the bolts go back up he will destroy the climbs.
Recently there was a climb destroyed up at Castle Crag. I wonder who did it.
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drewcoleman
Aug 7, 2002, 10:22 PM
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Everyone acts like they own the crag. It is all of ours. I am not condoning the actions of the "Bolt Cutters" but they have just as much access to the rock as you or I. I know how frustrating this is. My friends and I just set a route, come to find out some one took it down! This makes me mad for more than one reason. Not just runing someone's hard work but I am on a limited budget and I can not afford to keep replacing bolts and anchors every time some "Save the Trees" enviromentalist jackass destroys my sh*$! Touchy Topic.
Drew
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biggernhell
Aug 7, 2002, 10:29 PM
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MU HAW HAW HAW HAWHA
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number7
Aug 7, 2002, 10:34 PM
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I'm a villan! . . I'm a villan! . .
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roughster
Aug 7, 2002, 10:40 PM
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Jbone:
I have talked to Deidre and Jim a few times I was at Jack's early in its development, they always seemed like very nice people. However, I agree that trying to hold their projects for that long starts to get ridiculous. I think a good rule of thumbs is if your trying it at least once a week (as in that is your focus of your session) then I think the red tag should stand for as long as it takes. However, if your projects have cobwebs on them from lack of attempts and neglect, they should be opened up. also, you should avoid having more than 1 or 2 serious projects at a time.
As for climbing villans, hmmm, I could say that some in SoCal would have considered me a villian about 5 years ago. I had a website (much like Ariznabouldering) called What's Up SoCal where I put up topos of areas and new routes. I even included many "secret areas" and this drew the rath of some of their developers. Magherittavile was a prime exmample of that. I also put topos on the web for The Hood @ Charleston before any where availabe, made topos for Mt Clark pre-Rockfax, NJC, and other spots.
I pissed off some people for bolting some shorter stuff at Boxsprings, though everyone that climbs there still to this day send me emails thanking me for the routes I put up.
Frustration Creek is an area that has a bit of controversy associated around it for various reasons, from chipped holds, fixed ropes and there subsequent removals, spreading word about the area, topos, stealing lines, etc... All in all though, regardless if you agree with the ethics of the area, it by far the best sport climbing in Socal bar none.
When I moved up north I briefly put a topo out for Jailhouse which really caused locals to get in a bit of a rage, though the topo did not have directions just the listing of the routes. Ironically enough, everyone wanted a copy of it THEN they got mad, lol.
I have sinced moved onto a different area and have been developing routes in peace on limestone. Word will soon get out though as the climbing is fantastc and features a good spread of grades all bolted for fun sport climbing not this egotistical I climb 5.12+ therefore I will only bolt hard routes or put 1 bolt on a 60' 5.10a. I'd rather develop a solid area for fun at all grades rather than a personal playground.
Villians....they are what sometimes make climbing more interesting. The spice of life is found in the unexpected and sometimes controversial. In the end, I have some fun stories that never fail to gain rapt attention of my friends while sipping beers around the campfire. Sure I have pissed a few off along the way, but I have made many many more friends and for that I would not change a thing.
NOTE: I would NEVER agree that what Ken Nichols is doing is acceptable and were it he was pulling this crap out west he would be quickly be pulverized into a bloody pulp. I have no clue to why people out East put up with that shit.
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roughster
Aug 7, 2002, 10:48 PM
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Gawd,
You would be a short lived villian locally All it would take is you being in the wrong place at the wrong time, i.e. me showing up and catching you, and your career as a villan would end
[ This Message was edited by: roughster on 2002-08-07 15:48 ]
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biggernhell
Aug 7, 2002, 10:50 PM
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Oh sh it!
This is gonna turn into another (responible use of bolts flaming asshole thread.
I can see it coming.
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mtnjohn
Aug 7, 2002, 10:50 PM
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Intersting, people who chop bolts are villians but people who over bolt or bolt where theres gear placements are NOT villians?
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number7
Aug 7, 2002, 10:53 PM
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GOD BLESS THE VILLAN STOPPERS!
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roughster
Aug 7, 2002, 10:55 PM
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Quote:Intersting, people who chop bolts are villians but people who over bolt or bolt where theres gear placements are NOT villians?
Ahh but you assume too much grasshopper Ken Nichols is not chopping due over bolting or bolting next to cracks but chopping because he has a personal vendetta aginst bolts in general.
Very different scenarios.
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number7
Aug 7, 2002, 11:15 PM
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Hey Gawd, I don't think this is the place to take things that far. You might want to PM someone if you want to get personal.
2 cents. M
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roughster
Aug 7, 2002, 11:24 PM
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So Gawd tell me this. Did you consult the people who placed the bolts that you chopped?
Did you do it in front of their faces or hide till dark or when noone was around?
I cannot vouch why you chopped the routes but unless you talked it over with the bolt placers then you are the one that was not understaning your self styled enemies.
As for a threat, well that would on be true if you were local and decided to chop bolts locally. I have yet to have someone stand up to their tough guy convictions in person. Most people slink off with their tail between their legs and wait till everyone is gone or its dark before chopping anything.
The very definition of a coward in my book.
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roughster
Aug 7, 2002, 11:26 PM
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All further responses to Gawd will be through PM. Please return to your regularly scheduled posts
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biggernhell
Aug 8, 2002, 12:05 AM
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So roughster
Let me see if I've got this right. You can chop ill placed bolts only with the permission of those who placed them?
Does this include bolts next to cracks?
Bolts in obviously bad rock, that could be choped and a bolt placed in better rock?
Unsafe bolts?
What happens in the above situations when you can't readily find the original bolter?
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 12:42 AM
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Quote:So roughster
Let me see if I've got this right. You can chop ill placed bolts only with the permission of those who placed them?
Does this include bolts next to cracks?
Bolts in obviously bad rock, that could be choped and a bolt placed in better rock?
Unsafe bolts?
What happens in the above situations when you can't readily find the original bolter?
Actually my comment on whether or not he talked about the bolts before he chopped was based on his earlier argument that people should talk to the Chopper to understand their motives. My turnabout was to ask if he talked to the bolter before he chopped to understand the original bolters thoughts on the issue.
I never defended bolts chopped that are next to cracks, and the other two situations are not really bolt chopping but replacing or making the climb safer. I do think that you should talk to the FAist of any route before altering it any way.
Its funny you should bring up the situation of not being able to find the FAist. At an area I have been putting up routes, there is an older route (as in 5 years or so) who FAist is unknown. It would appear that rockfall took out a section of about 20 feet on this one particular route, as is evident by the obvious new rock scar, rock at the base, as well as the fact that the rest of the route is bolted every 6 feet or so and now there is a blank section of 20 feet with few holds and no bolts.
I have attempted for 3 seasons to find out who bolted it and have been unsuccessfull so far. If in the event it goes on for another year I may decide to rebolt it, but only after I consult with others who frequent the area and also I would consider this a last resort. I would never just make a change to a route based upon my assesment. i would at the very minimal try to consult others who frequent the area to get a consensus on how to approach the situation.
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chrisshaeffer
Aug 8, 2002, 12:43 AM
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Catholic? Protestant?
Oh wait...wrong bbs...
This has all the flavor of a "debate" that will never end because the two extremes have NO common ground on which to compromise.
Oh well.
-C
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 12:55 AM
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Chris:
I would actually say that most bolt/chopping situations could be avoided in the 1st place if choppers would approach bolters before they chopped. It may not fix the original route but it may lead to a better understanding of each others perspectives which would help avoid future confrontations.
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biggernhell
Aug 8, 2002, 12:57 AM
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Why did I ask?
I should know better than to post in a bolting/chopping thread.
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likethegoddess
Aug 8, 2002, 12:58 AM
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Roughster,
I'm a boulderer and I new one at that. I'm curious about people "holding projects". What does that mean?
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 1:08 AM
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Bouldering itself does not really lend itself to "personal projects". While a potential FAist may spend time cleaning the holds of lichen etc... there is generally no financial and large amounts of invested time.
However, in sport climbing, the FAist has the added finiancial cost of buying the hangers, bolts, and anchors. In addition, routes don't magically appear over night. In areas other than clean granite domes, new routes are an arduous task that usually involves hours of cleaning and rigging, bolting, and scrubbing, belaying, and many times risking life and limb to get the route up.
This process has an exacting toll on the FA ist. A good thing to try and understand this is grab a 5 lbs hammer and take it to the local chosspile. Find a large rock on the ground and pick it up. Place it somehwre next to an uncomfortable place to sit. Sit in that uncomfortable postion and proceed to hammer on the rock for about an hour staright. Then grab a wire brush and brush it for an hour. Now grab your tooth brush and brush it with that for an hour. Now pick up handfulls of dirt and rub it all over your clothes, face, hands, arms, legs, and even put some in your ears. During this whole process do not drink anywater and make sure your in the sun
Now after doing all the above, take the hammer, smash your fingers a few times with it for good measure to ensure multiple cuts on your hands to properly simulate scrapping your hands.
NOW finally rope up and try to send anything, let alone a line that you may be bolting for aproject. Heheh it is neigh impossible unless the route is well within your abaility.
Becuase of the involved effort, most people will allow a route developer a period of "grace" where they can come back over a period of time to try the route after resting up to get the FA. Now that period of time varies from area to area, but most common practice to allow the developer enough time as need to redpoint the climb and get the first ascent as a kind of thank you for spending the $$ and the time involved in establishing the route.
I would suggest asking a local route developer to help them on a new route for a insight into the extent of effort it takes to develop a route. Most people who take the routes for granted have no idea just how long, how much it costs, and how much work putting up a new route is.
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blacksamba
Aug 8, 2002, 1:28 AM
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Um how about the US GOVERNMENT!!
Charging peak fees (or as they call it a rescue fee) to climbers to climb on public property!
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wyclimber
Aug 8, 2002, 1:49 AM
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Roughster - I got a kick out of your description of simulating bolting a (chossy or maybe... limestone) route. I've been there all too many times. One thing you might consider, a tenant that I've been holding for years, is the nature of the 'First Ascent'. I have maintained for years now that if I spend the time, money, and effort to bolt the line, then I get to name it and the credit in the guide book, regardless of who actually redpoints the thing first. That way I can concentrate on bolting good lines, and not have to worry about some A-hole 'stealing my line', before I get a chance to climb it. Think about it, more time goes into bolting than may ever go into any ascent, especially if your talking about limestone.
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jbone
Aug 8, 2002, 1:53 AM
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Yeah that's the ticket..
Hey, I hate you Bolt-Choppers. You suck. Wasted energy.
Although I am glad you got the guts to admit it. Worse is Chislers and Drillers. That's what Diedre is.
Fortunately whe someone screws up a crag here in the Southwest there is another right around the corner that allows you to do it right.
Limestone Bolts should never be chopped it is the Sport Climbers Stone.
Granite can stay Trad as far as I'm Concerned. And If you go around Fixing everyone else's mistakes then they will never learn.
J-Bone
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wyclimber
Aug 8, 2002, 2:27 AM
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Godess - holding projects means disallowing others to climb a route until you've redpointed it. Effectively claiming a piece of mother nature as your own because you've spent the time bolting it, and only allowing others to climb it when you're ready. A red tag is placed on the first bolt to ward off people until the route has been climbed by the the person who bolted it. Unfortunately, some people believe that this can take as long as it takes them to send the route which can be NEVER sometimes.
Diedre and Todd Skinner are notorious for doing this and have garnered some bad press along the way. What do you think?
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k9rocko
Aug 8, 2002, 3:05 AM
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Little Cottonwood and Big Cottonwood Canyons have sprouted a villian. Just this week, someone broke two pitons on a classic route. Other fixed protection (mostly vintage) in other areas has sprouted feet.
Possibly they were unsafe. Heck, I never clipped them and ran them out. I always took the opportunity to back them up. The fact is that someone pulled a bong from Satan's Corner and the two pitons from Outside Corner.
It is possible these were artifacts from the first ascension. There were signs (from the broken eyelet) that the pitons on Outside Corner were pounded to remove them.
My first assumption was they were removed for "safety", but this is unlikely. Neither of these pieces were in a rappel station. Nor were they a detriment to others 'enjoying' the area. Seriously I don't think the Sierra Club noticed a pin 200 feet from the ground.
I much prefer they drain Lake Powell instead of chopping our pro, and fading the history of the first ascent.
K9Rocko
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number7
Aug 8, 2002, 3:55 AM
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I think that's a little crazy to be taging routes for your own claim Who the hell thought of this crap?!
I've witnessed a route bolting "ceremony" that was a great experience. Bolts being placed only where needed (mixed route). Then, as hard as it was, it was sent that day. Pure perfection. No disrespect. No waste.
If the route wasn't sent that day, it would be well understood that it would have to be sent in the next day or two. Red tagging for who knows how long, that's crap.
Besides, it was somewhat of a secret crag and I don't think anyone else local was even worthy of it
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rush
Aug 8, 2002, 3:58 AM
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There is a guy around here in Rio, that bolts everything he finds "unsafe".
If he thinks it's exposed, he just bolts away. Once this guy added 90 bolts (or so I was told) to a 700 meters multi pitch route. Guess that makes him our villain!
Have fun a climb on!
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rrrADAM
Aug 8, 2002, 4:40 AM
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Out at J-Tree, next to Roller Ball, a classic 5.11c TR was bolted in the middle of the night. The boltereven had the nerve to call Randy Vogel and ask for his name to be in the book as the Lead FA.
In my opinion, if it can beTRd, leave it alone. If it can be lead w/ natural gear (Trad), leave it alone. If it cannot be TRd or Trad lead, then bolt it, if the Area allows. (The main reason Hueco is the way it is now, is because of bolts "sprouting overnight". Even John Shermin wishes he hadn't done this, as he added to it's closue.) If it's a Sport Area, bolt it, regardless if it can be lead with natural gear, as that is the accepted ethic there. Problem is when bolters want to bolt Trad Areas, when it is not the ethic there.
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ponyryan
Aug 8, 2002, 4:44 AM
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On Mt. Hood (Trillium Lake) I caught some kids throwing big rocks off the top of walls (not necessarily climbing walls) but they weren't looking below and were dangerously close to the crag. I told them to stop, then realized that I knew them all pretty well. They stopped and promised they'd never do it again. It was lucky they never hit anybody, from that height and the size of the rocks they were rolling off it would have been a sure fatality!
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 4:54 AM
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#7:
I wouldn't exactly call it disrespect. I agree routes should not be tagged for extended periods of time (in fact I usually don't ever tag my projects) but I do think it is a curteosy to the developers to give them at least a few tries over at least a few days in order to send it.
The reason being bolting a route takes a lot more effort than you probably think. It taxes you to the point you have no hope of redpointing a route on the same day you bolt it.
Some developers (I am one of them) don't really care about who actually gets the FA, but I think the ones that do want a few days worth of attempts should be allowed to do so. It is a sign of respect for the amount of $$, effort, and time they spent on establishing the route.
Not allowing at least a few days is inviting troubles for your local area. More than likely it will result in 2 things: #1 they will quit putting up routes. That itself is not of huge consequence but what you fail to realize is there a very few people who actually put up routes. Even the reduction of one developer in any given area (excluding Colorado ) would mean a significant decrease in new route activity.
The 2nd thing would be the developers would most likely just move to different areas and develop the "secret Area" mentality, where they don't tell anyone about their routes until tey have gone through and developed and sent all the routes they want before releasing the info.
I think in both cases #1 and #2, its you, the average climber, who is hurt the most. I would just say, "Think About It".
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number7
Aug 8, 2002, 5:17 AM
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Roughster, don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with giving the developer a few days or weeks (if it's that hard). In fact it's their unwritten right (to me). But hogging a route for god knows how long, just so someone can call it theirs? That's a bit strange to me.
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 5:27 AM
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I agree, and thats where JBone is saying Deidre and Jim went too far, and I echo'd that sentiment in my original response.
I think a week, a month at tops on the high end of the scale should be sufficient, the problem is Diedre and Jim were holding onto routes years after they were developed. That IMO is too much to ask of the climbing community.
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number7
Aug 8, 2002, 5:34 AM
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AMEN! Unless they literaly own the crag
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likethegoddess
Aug 8, 2002, 5:34 AM
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I have to say that this is fascinating stuff for someone with *no* background in the whole trad/sport thing. But since you ask, wyclimber, I'll through my two cents in.
I'm a boulderer for a bunch of reasons, one of the being I feel the most connected to climbing that way. No harness, no rope, no protection but my spotters and my crashpad. Just me and the rock. That being said, as a general principal I'd like to see rocks stay in as much a natural state as possible. I don't even like seeing patches of chalk left behind by other boulderers.
I also think there's world enough for all climbers. If I were a sport climber and someone had red tagged a climb, I wouldn't climb it. That route wouldn't even be there for me to consider climbing if it wasn't for that person's hard work and attention. If it's still there fallow for a good long time and I really really wanted to climb it, I'd find the person who set it and ask them if it's ok with with them if I send it. If they say no or I couldn't find them, I'll leave it. There's plenty of other climbing to do. If I were a sport climber, that's how I'd want to procede.
So, tell me, is there a strong sense of lineage in terms of passing down the knowledge of how routes are set. Or do people really just get to a point where they feel they can take it one themselves. It seems that part of the problem is people setting routes without knowing what they're doing.
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jbone
Aug 8, 2002, 5:38 AM
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The Incident:
"I was climbing on the Main Wall over a few month's as this was happening."
A longstanding project had not been fully bolted on the Main Wall at Jacks Canyon. For over 3 yrs this had stood with no progress on the route. Eventually a few climbers had climbed everything at the wall and were really psyched looking at this line. So after 3 yrs they decided to draw the line and finish the route. They did and even found a more natural line to follow up to the anchors. Soon after Diedre heard about it and came out and chopped the bolts and filled in all the hold on the wall so the line could never be sent again. Then she Re-Established her red tagged line. Lots of things happened since but the state of the rock is the real concern.
I may be off on the details but I am sure people could elaberate on the Nasty Details as much as the Defending one's.
For this action alone I see Her as Arizona's most recent Climbing Villan.
Would You?
J-Bone
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number7
Aug 8, 2002, 5:48 AM
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Yes. Sounds less about climbing rock and more like children fighting over a toy. Even if it means breaking the toy
[ This Message was edited by: number7 on 2002-08-07 22:49 ]
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 6:43 AM
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JBone:
If this is the incident I am thinking of, this happened about 3 years ago, correct?
If so, I can give you my persepective on it as I was also there during the time this all went down.
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climbsomething
Aug 8, 2002, 4:11 PM
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JBone and Roughster:
I am most fascinated with the gossip here!
Jacks has been one of my fave places to climb ever since I first saw it. I throughly enjoy a weekend's climbing at Jacks, but the place also makes me sad. The human impact on the area is deplorable. The site hasn't even been developed 10 years and the trails and roads slicing through everywhere are alone enough to take from the experience of being outdoors. (lemme dig around my photos, I know I have some depicting this) Now, I know I am taking advantage of these resources so I shouldn't get too pious, but who thought it was NECESSARY to scar the land so severely, so quickly? All the place is lacking is elevators and those moving sidewalks you see at the airport
I have also noticed that the most padded climbs- which give Jacks a bad name- are listed in the guidebook as Diedre's FAs. Now, I am all for grrl power, but if a gal was so prolific at setting scads of climbs up to the low 13's, wouldn't she be a bit more famous?
I have never met Diedre Burton, but I am not sure I'd want to. I get the idea that this chicky is selfish beyond all comprehension. It's not HER canyon to abuse for purposes of mental masturbation! If she needs a self-esteem boost, read a self-help book or feed the homeless or something And that anecdote about the project... if that's true... OMG!! how has this girl escaped the climber lynch mob??
As for comments on bolting/chopping/trad and sport ethics: NONE Debates on politics, religion, abortion, and BOLTS make me run screaming
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number7
Aug 8, 2002, 4:44 PM
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Speek the WORD sista! (in a southern-babtist tone of voice )
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wildtrail
Aug 8, 2002, 4:57 PM
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Whoever unnecessarily bolted at Gibratar Rock, contributing yet another reason for the DNR to dislike us and the county to close the park to climbing access.
Steve
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bolder
Aug 8, 2002, 4:59 PM
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There is this guy, his name is Dave Graham. HE is a total asshole. He sends all of the hardest problems in the world like they were 5.10. Doesn't he realize that this makes us ALL look like a bunch of gumbies. Yep! I hate him.
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climbsomething
Aug 8, 2002, 9:22 PM
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#7 and bolder: *giggle*
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lostangel
Aug 8, 2002, 10:22 PM
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Dirt.. dirt is evil.. that and those damn marmots.
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 10:54 PM
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Dirt dirt dirt...hmm okay.
I was out there with a freind for a 2 week trip. Believe it or not we had the place to ourselves most of the time during the week, except for Deidre and Jim. Will talked them quite a bit during the week as Jim was putting up a new route (to the right of Sacrificial Lizard) and was hanging around on others climbs. He gave me some good beta for Trick or Tweak as well
Anyways, we noticed one day that a rope ws fixed to a set of anchors on the wall then tied up about 30 feet up a tree away from the rock. Was quite the strange sight, so we asked Jim about it.
Jim said that Deidre had been working a line, but that some other kids (he called them kids) had been trying to sabotage her attepmts by doing stupid stuff like, putting objects in the pockets, messing with her draws, and rope. He even said that these people had taped pornographic pictures on the route at various points (no joke thats what he said, I am not saying I believe him though as I didn't see that part).
As a result, he said that Deidre had stripped the hangers off of the route. I do kind of agree with him on this point --> His feelings were there is a TON of potential for new routes in the canyon, why bother messing with someone elses route when just 10 feet down is a very similar feature of stone without any bolts on it.
Later in the week, we did see a group of younger teens hanging out at the base of the, though we did not talk to them.
I did see the draws at the base in a pile, and the rope tied to the tree so I know there was foolishness going on with both sides not just Deidre and Jim, though I do not condone their actions of stripping the route either.
As for the kids re-establishing the lines and the subsequent filling of the pockets, I heard this second hand from a friend later.
I think both parties maybe should have talked about it face to face 1st before it escalated to that point. My understanding is by the time they talked about it (after all the shenanigans were done) Jim threatened to beat the crap out of one of the kids, of which he could easily accomplished more than likely as he is a decent size fellow.
Now what is the lesson to be learned IMO? There is a ton of rock in Arizona and echoing what JBone said, there is so much rock I think there really is no need to mess with someone else's routes. If you want to get on a line that bad. Approach the developer 1st and talk to them about it.
I also feel that FA'ist should be considerate and realize that any project that sits longer than a season should really be opened up to the public as if you can't send it in a season, then you bolted too far over your head. Allowing someone else to actually FA the route will take nothing from your ascent.
Anyways, Jim and Deidre seemed like nice people and even offered to let use there showers/fascilities while we were in Winslow. I do understand that they have been very...ummm how should I put this...controversial in how they establish their routes, but I can say that I have also climbed at the nearby Asylum, and many of the practices Jim and Deidre are witch hunted for also have happened on routes that they did not develop at the Asylum.
But as I stated earlier, it all makes for good gossip and keeps things interesting
See you on the wall
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rocknalaska
Aug 9, 2002, 12:33 AM
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Villians,
I'm probably considered by some to be a villian here in AK. I've defintely bolted things waaaaaay over my head( i Still contend that they'll go free), but I've never red tagged a climb. Mostly I've been involved with establishing new bouldering areas in clean ways, although at one point I did assist in chipping a problem. To this day I regret the chipping episode and will definitely never do so again.
As far as the ethics of bolting go. Generally follow the ethics of the area. I personally feel that if it takes reasonable gear don't bolt. If it has been climbed, leave it the way it is(exception-replacing manky bolts, but not adding more).
Other wise bolted isn't exactly environmentally damaging. Anyone complaining that bolting hurts the environmant is a HYPOCRITE IF THEY DRIVE A CAR, USE PLASTICS, OR SUPPORT ANYONE WHO DOES. Bolts don't hurt the environment, those do. Heavy gardening to clean a route is more environmentally damaging than a bolt.
My opinion,
Todd
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northeastnick
Aug 9, 2002, 12:40 AM
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In reply to the start of the thread - #1 Villian = Don himself (no longer with us sadly)
Can't be arsed to read the rest of that crap
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number7
Aug 9, 2002, 2:38 AM
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northeastnick, call me stupid, but I have no idea what the hell your last post is supposed to mean I hope it doesn't mean what I think it does.
Anyway. This whole Jacks Canyon thing is rediculous! I hope this s--- doesn't become the norm umungst our community.
PLEASE PEOPLE! STOP THE INSANITY!
Can't we all just get along?
Two wrongs don't make a right.
An eye for an eye makes everyone blind.
It's better to have loved and learned then . . . .
Etc., etc., etc. . . . .
Words in some damn book don't add up to anything!
The love that you make is the love that you take. Lennon man!
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rock_climbin_06
Aug 9, 2002, 3:55 AM
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Rock on Hillary(climbsomething) I agree with you. This topic is beaten to the bone and really gets annoying after awhile. Its like debating about religion or abortion(as climbsomething stated) they are all useless topics that will never have a compromise! Good luck guys! Oh ya, and I don't like dirt either! Rock on!
-Adam
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northeastnick
Aug 10, 2002, 12:03 PM
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#7 I doubt it means what you think it means.
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