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jbone
Aug 8, 2002, 1:53 AM
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Yeah that's the ticket..
Hey, I hate you Bolt-Choppers. You suck. Wasted energy.
Although I am glad you got the guts to admit it. Worse is Chislers and Drillers. That's what Diedre is.
Fortunately whe someone screws up a crag here in the Southwest there is another right around the corner that allows you to do it right.
Limestone Bolts should never be chopped it is the Sport Climbers Stone.
Granite can stay Trad as far as I'm Concerned. And If you go around Fixing everyone else's mistakes then they will never learn.
J-Bone
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wyclimber
Aug 8, 2002, 2:27 AM
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Godess - holding projects means disallowing others to climb a route until you've redpointed it. Effectively claiming a piece of mother nature as your own because you've spent the time bolting it, and only allowing others to climb it when you're ready. A red tag is placed on the first bolt to ward off people until the route has been climbed by the the person who bolted it. Unfortunately, some people believe that this can take as long as it takes them to send the route which can be NEVER sometimes.
Diedre and Todd Skinner are notorious for doing this and have garnered some bad press along the way. What do you think?
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k9rocko
Aug 8, 2002, 3:05 AM
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Little Cottonwood and Big Cottonwood Canyons have sprouted a villian. Just this week, someone broke two pitons on a classic route. Other fixed protection (mostly vintage) in other areas has sprouted feet.
Possibly they were unsafe. Heck, I never clipped them and ran them out. I always took the opportunity to back them up. The fact is that someone pulled a bong from Satan's Corner and the two pitons from Outside Corner.
It is possible these were artifacts from the first ascension. There were signs (from the broken eyelet) that the pitons on Outside Corner were pounded to remove them.
My first assumption was they were removed for "safety", but this is unlikely. Neither of these pieces were in a rappel station. Nor were they a detriment to others 'enjoying' the area. Seriously I don't think the Sierra Club noticed a pin 200 feet from the ground.
I much prefer they drain Lake Powell instead of chopping our pro, and fading the history of the first ascent.
K9Rocko
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number7
Aug 8, 2002, 3:55 AM
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I think that's a little crazy to be taging routes for your own claim Who the hell thought of this crap?!
I've witnessed a route bolting "ceremony" that was a great experience. Bolts being placed only where needed (mixed route). Then, as hard as it was, it was sent that day. Pure perfection. No disrespect. No waste.
If the route wasn't sent that day, it would be well understood that it would have to be sent in the next day or two. Red tagging for who knows how long, that's crap.
Besides, it was somewhat of a secret crag and I don't think anyone else local was even worthy of it
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rush
Aug 8, 2002, 3:58 AM
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There is a guy around here in Rio, that bolts everything he finds "unsafe".
If he thinks it's exposed, he just bolts away. Once this guy added 90 bolts (or so I was told) to a 700 meters multi pitch route. Guess that makes him our villain!
Have fun a climb on!
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rrrADAM
Aug 8, 2002, 4:40 AM
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Out at J-Tree, next to Roller Ball, a classic 5.11c TR was bolted in the middle of the night. The boltereven had the nerve to call Randy Vogel and ask for his name to be in the book as the Lead FA.
In my opinion, if it can beTRd, leave it alone. If it can be lead w/ natural gear (Trad), leave it alone. If it cannot be TRd or Trad lead, then bolt it, if the Area allows. (The main reason Hueco is the way it is now, is because of bolts "sprouting overnight". Even John Shermin wishes he hadn't done this, as he added to it's closue.) If it's a Sport Area, bolt it, regardless if it can be lead with natural gear, as that is the accepted ethic there. Problem is when bolters want to bolt Trad Areas, when it is not the ethic there.
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ponyryan
Aug 8, 2002, 4:44 AM
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On Mt. Hood (Trillium Lake) I caught some kids throwing big rocks off the top of walls (not necessarily climbing walls) but they weren't looking below and were dangerously close to the crag. I told them to stop, then realized that I knew them all pretty well. They stopped and promised they'd never do it again. It was lucky they never hit anybody, from that height and the size of the rocks they were rolling off it would have been a sure fatality!
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 4:54 AM
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#7:
I wouldn't exactly call it disrespect. I agree routes should not be tagged for extended periods of time (in fact I usually don't ever tag my projects) but I do think it is a curteosy to the developers to give them at least a few tries over at least a few days in order to send it.
The reason being bolting a route takes a lot more effort than you probably think. It taxes you to the point you have no hope of redpointing a route on the same day you bolt it.
Some developers (I am one of them) don't really care about who actually gets the FA, but I think the ones that do want a few days worth of attempts should be allowed to do so. It is a sign of respect for the amount of $$, effort, and time they spent on establishing the route.
Not allowing at least a few days is inviting troubles for your local area. More than likely it will result in 2 things: #1 they will quit putting up routes. That itself is not of huge consequence but what you fail to realize is there a very few people who actually put up routes. Even the reduction of one developer in any given area (excluding Colorado ) would mean a significant decrease in new route activity.
The 2nd thing would be the developers would most likely just move to different areas and develop the "secret Area" mentality, where they don't tell anyone about their routes until tey have gone through and developed and sent all the routes they want before releasing the info.
I think in both cases #1 and #2, its you, the average climber, who is hurt the most. I would just say, "Think About It".
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number7
Aug 8, 2002, 5:17 AM
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Roughster, don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with giving the developer a few days or weeks (if it's that hard). In fact it's their unwritten right (to me). But hogging a route for god knows how long, just so someone can call it theirs? That's a bit strange to me.
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 5:27 AM
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I agree, and thats where JBone is saying Deidre and Jim went too far, and I echo'd that sentiment in my original response.
I think a week, a month at tops on the high end of the scale should be sufficient, the problem is Diedre and Jim were holding onto routes years after they were developed. That IMO is too much to ask of the climbing community.
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number7
Aug 8, 2002, 5:34 AM
Post #36 of 52
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AMEN! Unless they literaly own the crag
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likethegoddess
Aug 8, 2002, 5:34 AM
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I have to say that this is fascinating stuff for someone with *no* background in the whole trad/sport thing. But since you ask, wyclimber, I'll through my two cents in.
I'm a boulderer for a bunch of reasons, one of the being I feel the most connected to climbing that way. No harness, no rope, no protection but my spotters and my crashpad. Just me and the rock. That being said, as a general principal I'd like to see rocks stay in as much a natural state as possible. I don't even like seeing patches of chalk left behind by other boulderers.
I also think there's world enough for all climbers. If I were a sport climber and someone had red tagged a climb, I wouldn't climb it. That route wouldn't even be there for me to consider climbing if it wasn't for that person's hard work and attention. If it's still there fallow for a good long time and I really really wanted to climb it, I'd find the person who set it and ask them if it's ok with with them if I send it. If they say no or I couldn't find them, I'll leave it. There's plenty of other climbing to do. If I were a sport climber, that's how I'd want to procede.
So, tell me, is there a strong sense of lineage in terms of passing down the knowledge of how routes are set. Or do people really just get to a point where they feel they can take it one themselves. It seems that part of the problem is people setting routes without knowing what they're doing.
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jbone
Aug 8, 2002, 5:38 AM
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The Incident:
"I was climbing on the Main Wall over a few month's as this was happening."
A longstanding project had not been fully bolted on the Main Wall at Jacks Canyon. For over 3 yrs this had stood with no progress on the route. Eventually a few climbers had climbed everything at the wall and were really psyched looking at this line. So after 3 yrs they decided to draw the line and finish the route. They did and even found a more natural line to follow up to the anchors. Soon after Diedre heard about it and came out and chopped the bolts and filled in all the hold on the wall so the line could never be sent again. Then she Re-Established her red tagged line. Lots of things happened since but the state of the rock is the real concern.
I may be off on the details but I am sure people could elaberate on the Nasty Details as much as the Defending one's.
For this action alone I see Her as Arizona's most recent Climbing Villan.
Would You?
J-Bone
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number7
Aug 8, 2002, 5:48 AM
Post #39 of 52
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Yes. Sounds less about climbing rock and more like children fighting over a toy. Even if it means breaking the toy
[ This Message was edited by: number7 on 2002-08-07 22:49 ]
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 6:43 AM
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JBone:
If this is the incident I am thinking of, this happened about 3 years ago, correct?
If so, I can give you my persepective on it as I was also there during the time this all went down.
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climbsomething
Aug 8, 2002, 4:11 PM
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JBone and Roughster:
I am most fascinated with the gossip here!
Jacks has been one of my fave places to climb ever since I first saw it. I throughly enjoy a weekend's climbing at Jacks, but the place also makes me sad. The human impact on the area is deplorable. The site hasn't even been developed 10 years and the trails and roads slicing through everywhere are alone enough to take from the experience of being outdoors. (lemme dig around my photos, I know I have some depicting this) Now, I know I am taking advantage of these resources so I shouldn't get too pious, but who thought it was NECESSARY to scar the land so severely, so quickly? All the place is lacking is elevators and those moving sidewalks you see at the airport
I have also noticed that the most padded climbs- which give Jacks a bad name- are listed in the guidebook as Diedre's FAs. Now, I am all for grrl power, but if a gal was so prolific at setting scads of climbs up to the low 13's, wouldn't she be a bit more famous?
I have never met Diedre Burton, but I am not sure I'd want to. I get the idea that this chicky is selfish beyond all comprehension. It's not HER canyon to abuse for purposes of mental masturbation! If she needs a self-esteem boost, read a self-help book or feed the homeless or something And that anecdote about the project... if that's true... OMG!! how has this girl escaped the climber lynch mob??
As for comments on bolting/chopping/trad and sport ethics: NONE Debates on politics, religion, abortion, and BOLTS make me run screaming
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number7
Aug 8, 2002, 4:44 PM
Post #42 of 52
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Speek the WORD sista! (in a southern-babtist tone of voice )
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wildtrail
Aug 8, 2002, 4:57 PM
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Whoever unnecessarily bolted at Gibratar Rock, contributing yet another reason for the DNR to dislike us and the county to close the park to climbing access.
Steve
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bolder
Aug 8, 2002, 4:59 PM
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There is this guy, his name is Dave Graham. HE is a total asshole. He sends all of the hardest problems in the world like they were 5.10. Doesn't he realize that this makes us ALL look like a bunch of gumbies. Yep! I hate him.
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climbsomething
Aug 8, 2002, 9:22 PM
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#7 and bolder: *giggle*
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lostangel
Aug 8, 2002, 10:22 PM
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Dirt.. dirt is evil.. that and those damn marmots.
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roughster
Aug 8, 2002, 10:54 PM
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Dirt dirt dirt...hmm okay.
I was out there with a freind for a 2 week trip. Believe it or not we had the place to ourselves most of the time during the week, except for Deidre and Jim. Will talked them quite a bit during the week as Jim was putting up a new route (to the right of Sacrificial Lizard) and was hanging around on others climbs. He gave me some good beta for Trick or Tweak as well
Anyways, we noticed one day that a rope ws fixed to a set of anchors on the wall then tied up about 30 feet up a tree away from the rock. Was quite the strange sight, so we asked Jim about it.
Jim said that Deidre had been working a line, but that some other kids (he called them kids) had been trying to sabotage her attepmts by doing stupid stuff like, putting objects in the pockets, messing with her draws, and rope. He even said that these people had taped pornographic pictures on the route at various points (no joke thats what he said, I am not saying I believe him though as I didn't see that part).
As a result, he said that Deidre had stripped the hangers off of the route. I do kind of agree with him on this point --> His feelings were there is a TON of potential for new routes in the canyon, why bother messing with someone elses route when just 10 feet down is a very similar feature of stone without any bolts on it.
Later in the week, we did see a group of younger teens hanging out at the base of the, though we did not talk to them.
I did see the draws at the base in a pile, and the rope tied to the tree so I know there was foolishness going on with both sides not just Deidre and Jim, though I do not condone their actions of stripping the route either.
As for the kids re-establishing the lines and the subsequent filling of the pockets, I heard this second hand from a friend later.
I think both parties maybe should have talked about it face to face 1st before it escalated to that point. My understanding is by the time they talked about it (after all the shenanigans were done) Jim threatened to beat the crap out of one of the kids, of which he could easily accomplished more than likely as he is a decent size fellow.
Now what is the lesson to be learned IMO? There is a ton of rock in Arizona and echoing what JBone said, there is so much rock I think there really is no need to mess with someone else's routes. If you want to get on a line that bad. Approach the developer 1st and talk to them about it.
I also feel that FA'ist should be considerate and realize that any project that sits longer than a season should really be opened up to the public as if you can't send it in a season, then you bolted too far over your head. Allowing someone else to actually FA the route will take nothing from your ascent.
Anyways, Jim and Deidre seemed like nice people and even offered to let use there showers/fascilities while we were in Winslow. I do understand that they have been very...ummm how should I put this...controversial in how they establish their routes, but I can say that I have also climbed at the nearby Asylum, and many of the practices Jim and Deidre are witch hunted for also have happened on routes that they did not develop at the Asylum.
But as I stated earlier, it all makes for good gossip and keeps things interesting
See you on the wall
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rocknalaska
Aug 9, 2002, 12:33 AM
Post #48 of 52
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Villians,
I'm probably considered by some to be a villian here in AK. I've defintely bolted things waaaaaay over my head( i Still contend that they'll go free), but I've never red tagged a climb. Mostly I've been involved with establishing new bouldering areas in clean ways, although at one point I did assist in chipping a problem. To this day I regret the chipping episode and will definitely never do so again.
As far as the ethics of bolting go. Generally follow the ethics of the area. I personally feel that if it takes reasonable gear don't bolt. If it has been climbed, leave it the way it is(exception-replacing manky bolts, but not adding more).
Other wise bolted isn't exactly environmentally damaging. Anyone complaining that bolting hurts the environmant is a HYPOCRITE IF THEY DRIVE A CAR, USE PLASTICS, OR SUPPORT ANYONE WHO DOES. Bolts don't hurt the environment, those do. Heavy gardening to clean a route is more environmentally damaging than a bolt.
My opinion,
Todd
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northeastnick
Aug 9, 2002, 12:40 AM
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In reply to the start of the thread - #1 Villian = Don himself (no longer with us sadly)
Can't be arsed to read the rest of that crap
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number7
Aug 9, 2002, 2:38 AM
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northeastnick, call me stupid, but I have no idea what the hell your last post is supposed to mean I hope it doesn't mean what I think it does.
Anyway. This whole Jacks Canyon thing is rediculous! I hope this s--- doesn't become the norm umungst our community.
PLEASE PEOPLE! STOP THE INSANITY!
Can't we all just get along?
Two wrongs don't make a right.
An eye for an eye makes everyone blind.
It's better to have loved and learned then . . . .
Etc., etc., etc. . . . .
Words in some damn book don't add up to anything!
The love that you make is the love that you take. Lennon man!
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