Hey did you know that you have a better chance of dying on the road in a car than you do on a mountain. Let's be honest here, taking a kid for a car ride is much more risky than a mountaineering adventure.

Yes, it is true that kids do not understand a bunch of what life offers, and yes it is true that there are some lessons in life which we just have to learn for ourselves, but....... We are talking about 20,000 foot plus mountaineering here, would you say that it is OK for a six year old to go base jumping, a ten year old to drive a formula one race car, a seven year old to be left alone with a high powered handgun, maybe a three year old night swimming alone? Where do you draw the line? I have never said that children should not participate in risky activities, I just thought that high altitude mountaineering was not the best idea for an eight year old. Please don't even try to compare cragging with kids to high altitude mountaineering above 20,000 ft. there is no comparison.

late to the fray, thank god.

I would guess that jred:

works with kids, yet has none of his own
has never been to 20k feet

and thats ok.


FINALLY someone who shouldn't be a parent, who isn't!



Just don't tell me how to live my life or raise my child. Period. Some people die having never lived, but I won't be one of them. Nor will any of my direct offspring.

So, STFU you holier than thou childless prick. If you want to make the parenting decisions then get your own child. I'd hate to see jred try to raise an autistic one, or any child for that matter. I'll feel sorry for them now, cause it'll probably happen. Accidents always do.

(and for the record, at 8 i was driving tractors on the farm, caring for about a dozen horses meanwhile killing a myriad of small burrowing creatures whilst roaming the hillsides with a bow+arrows unescorted by any adult. safe is relative. it has more to do with HOW you empower a person, than what you allow them to do.)

Wow, well put, very eloquant, you really drove the point home. What is your point?
So if I am to understand you correctly, me working with kids and not being able to any of my own disqualifies me from having an opinion, for showing concern.
Parents should be able to do anything with their kids they want regardless of risks?
When have I told anybody what to do with their kids? I most certainly stated that I think 20,000ft plus mountaineering is a bad idea for an eight year old, my opinion. Why not tell me why mountaineering at high altitude is a good activity for eight year olds? Why not tell me how an eight year old would be able to cope in an emergency situation? Please describe how the benifits outweight the risks. Can you, or would you rather swear at me?
This is my opinion, it is flexible, I have been wrong before, I will be wrong again but on this issue I really feel that this activity is inappropriate. Tell me why I am wrong.
Why do you feel I would be a bad parent? I love kids, I choose to work with kids of all ages and abilities. I have worked with an Autistic child once and my stepfather was involved in a program working with dogs and autistic kids, very cool.
I have no problem with kids doing risky activities, as a climbing coach I let kids do potentially dangerous things all of the time, I just seriously question the 20,000ft. mountaineering thing.
Why do you feel you have to list things you did as an eight year old? Who cares if you liked to drive the tractor and play bow and arrow, what does that have to do with anything? Surely you are not comparing those activities to 20,000ft. plus mountaineering

In my studies, i have read about something called the 'Cult of Childhood'
which is where children get put on a pedistal of innocence. the result was a bunch of pediphilic adults and little girls in white dresses marrying people 30 years thier senior. how is this relevant? before this came about the idea of childhood DID NOT EXIST. it is a recent development in society. before the 'cult' kids were thought of as simply 'little people.' human beings are still around, so obviously treating the little people like adults is not that big a problem, and if you try and argue that 20000 ft is more dangerous than than chimney sweeping it the 1700's then lose a lot of weight and try it yourself

i dont see the point in distinguishing one dangerous activity from another.

How serious is this peak compared to others of similar size?

How many fatalities have occurred on this peak?

How many fatalities happened in guiding scenarios?

It's all fun and games till your kid gets killed. You'll spend the rest of your life wondering if you made the right choice. Knowing my kid died or was maimed doing something they enjoyed doing will be little consolation to me.

"7-year-old killed trying to break flying record" 1996

JonBenet Ramsey anyone..?

russian roulette is merely faster in realising the consequences, both WILL kill you. one is merely faster, and will do a better job.

I have no doubt that the parents of this child love him dearly and have no intention of harm coming to him. I just don't feel personally that they have calculated all of the risks.

"Boy, a morning at 17,000 feet is cold," he said.

"No, son... people like jred are cold. Probably just got 'er panties in a twist cause she was shown up by an 8 yr old with aspergers syndrome. "

"It's the worse 3,000 feet I've ever done," he said.

"I got cold two times in Nepal. No times in Switzerland," Aidan added.

Um, how you feel personally about it has no bearing on their decision making process whatsoever, and since I doubt you have had a daily involvement in their lives, you don't get to offer input. You are an armchair quarterback, the worst kind at that.

Now, were you to be a sperm donor (or egg, in your case) and pony up half the cost of raising a child (autistic at that) then your opinion MIGHT count for more than a few wasted bytes.

Peiople like you really piss me off. Keep your busy-body noses out of other peoples business where it doesn't belong. Just because you have risen to the level of your incompetence doesn't mean you have the right to hold somebody else back.





Aidan said the toughest stretch for him was a 45-degree face of rock and ice on Haustock.


Right on, kid! Die trying... the best always do.

"death is ones ownmost possibility"

it doesnt matter if you are surrounded by friends or in a cravase dying of hypothermia by yourslef.
you are still alone.

if this kid can enjoy mountaineering, then all the power to him. from my knowledge of autistic kids, it is difficult for them to relate to the world around them, so if he can find some joy in his life: GOOD.
sure he wont be any good in an emergency, but most people aren't. if you look at case studies of accidents in everyday life most people freeze, and one or two people actually do something. im sure that the parents have looked at the potential of an emergency and weighed it against the enjoyment he get out of it. maybe if he dies they will reevaluate, but it is not our place to tell the parents that they cant allow thier child to do something he enjoys

I will repeat my questions, please describe the benefits of this activity and how they outweigh the potential for death.

please explain how high altitude has no negative affects on developing lungs.

How does anyone justify this activity?



So perhaps earlier in this thread I was too subtle. It sounds like even though this peak is 20,000+ feet, it's fairly casual.

When was the last fatality on Island Peak?

When was the last guided fatality on Island Peak?

OK, let us say that an eight year old can't make decisions in an emergency situation.

Are there examples of guided adults freezing up and still being rescued? I've heard guides refer to guiding as 'baby sitting'...Why is that?


Please do.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but there has been no evidence presented in this forum discussion to indicate that high altitude has a negative effect on any developing organs, including lungs and brain.

So if there is someone out there with answers to any of my questions, or studies about developing organs and high altitude, please post up.

Tom

I just don't think it is fair to subject an eight year old to that type of potential danger. I would also say it is wrong to bring a capable adult into such a situation without having him/her fully understand the risks at hand. It is about being able to make a judgement of danger and calculate the risks and make an informed decision, an eight year old can not do this.

You are correct in saying that nothing concrete has been stated about high altitudes effect on young developing organs, someone brought it up, I just thought it was a valid question.