|
stevep
Feb 23, 2006, 11:19 PM
Post #101 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2004
Posts: 93
|
In reply to: In reply to: lewisiarediviva, you said you let your kids go mountain biking and hunting by themselves. wtf? My kids are 9 and 11.
Apologies. My misread on that one.
However, while I don't know that I'd call the parents selfish, I might be tempted to say irresponsible. There are plently of ways to get a little kid adventure and excitement that don't involve potential dangers like high altitude mountaineering.
And while it would be interesting to have studies already done on the effect of 20000ft altitude on a body that young, in the absence of such studies, I would hope people would lean towards the side of caution not experimentation on a young child. Again, it's not as if there aren't plenty of alternatives that involve loads of fun and adventure.
|
|
|
|
|
lewisiarediviva
Feb 23, 2006, 11:28 PM
Post #102 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 527
|
stevep, :righton:!
|
|
|
|
|
jred
Feb 24, 2006, 12:30 AM
Post #103 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 750
|
[quote="lewisiarediviva"]In reply to: lewisiarediviva, you said you let your kids go mountain biking and hunting by themselves.
wtf? My kids are 9 and 11.
In reply to: I accept jred's opinion. I agree with him on the topic. I disagree that the opinion on the topic is so right that we should call the parents that do this sort of thing "selfish In reply to: I am also offended that he bashed me when I sat down and typed out reasons that I could relate to on why parents might do such extreme climbing.
.In reply to: He would jred has no basis of knowledge of what happens to kids at 20,000 feetlike to know- but he will only listen to very specific experience In reply to: Boundary's that we allow our kid's to cross or not cross are ours.
In reply to: I think we should focus on questions asked by atpeaceinbozeman, because he has asked the right questions to move this discussion in the way that jred wanted to. In reply to: jred just put his foot in his mouth on this one though- something i do quite often myself.[/
I think as cracklover said, you have got your back up because you feel I am questioning someones parenting, which as I now know is unquestionable. Step back, get off the defensive and realize this is not some sort of personal threat or attack of your parenting abilities. This is merely a person questioning an activities appropriateness for kids, nothing more, nothing less.
|
|
|
|
|
lewisiarediviva
Feb 24, 2006, 1:36 AM
Post #104 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 527
|
In reply to: I do have a basis of knowledge through research I have done (though minimal) on altitude sickness. I have also asked a few friends who have been to that height for their opinion. Just whose experience should I listen to on this, yours?
And when did you share this insight with us? If you had actually discussed all these thoughts you've been having rather than spending your time telling me that you won't listen to me, then maybe I would have felt that a discussion was happening.
Maybe you should remember that this was not your thread in the first place and their for people may make comments on things other than your one point.
A point that I think may actually be obvious, though I'm still waiting to see you put your whole point into words (If I overlooked it please quote it).
In reply to: I think as cracklover said, you have got your back up because you feel I am questioning someones parenting, which as I now know is unquestionable. Step back, get off the defensive and realize this is not some sort of personal threat or attack of your parenting abilities. This is merely a person questioning an activities appropriateness for kids, nothing more, nothing less.
I never said that you were threatening my parenting abilities, in fact I'll point out that earlier you complimented them. What you are threatening is my ability to put in my, and other parents, two cents. Unfortunately for me I started by telling you that taking an autistic kid up a mountain was far from selfish on the parents behalf.
By the way, I have a ton of respect for cracklover. I don't think he was only referring to me. I left this discussion in the first place because I couldn't discuss why a parent would take a kid up a mountain like this- and you were the only one involved. You only wanted to discuss your one point. I came back in because I became sick of watching you do the same thing to every one else. So yes, today I have been on the defensive. It's obvious. In the beginning this entire subject intrigued me, still does when I look beyond the "one point."
|
|
|
|
|
jred
Feb 24, 2006, 2:47 AM
Post #105 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 750
|
Lew, the original poster was not making a point, they just showed the article to us. I was not the first to start the questioning, or was I.
I agree that discussing kids and risky activities would be an interesting thread. I just thought that this particular case was exclusive from almost all other activities and therefore not comparable for arguments sake.
The reason that I did not share my information is because I am far from an expert on the topic and was hoping that a person more qualified would speak up. Most of what I learned was on the Internet, if you are curious.
You have stated that I have not made my point clear, I beg to differ, but I will re-state it.
I personally feel that the risks involved in high altitude mountaineering for an eight year old greatly outweigh any benefits. I feel that this activity is too risky because of several factors, the main one being an eight year olds inability to deal with any sort of emergency situation that could arise. Although altitude issues seem like they could be a factor, I must admit that I am unable to find any evidence regarding kids and altitudes effects.
The study of kids and altitude may not even have ever been done, though I still think is worth considering.
You seem to take my wanting to stay on point as an insult, that is too bad no insult was ever intended. Just take a look at some things said on this thread and see who was actually insulted for their opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
lewisiarediviva
Feb 24, 2006, 3:16 AM
Post #106 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 527
|
jred, I actually remember you mentioning this point of yours. I felt I had points to make from a parenting perspective, and as I sat here thinking of about how challenging such a task is I realized how much it actually related to my daily life and how Aidan's parents went above and beyond thier normal challenges that in themselves are above and beyond mine. I, like I have said, setting aside risks- am in awe.
I felt that everytime I shared my thoughts you came back and said "but we are talking about 20,000 foot peaks." Well, no, originally we were talking about parents taking an [autistic] kid up [20,000 ft] peaks. I feel like you took out everything but the kid and the 20,000 feet. I think the story talks about a million other things. When I addressed you in my first few post I was by all means NOT telling you that I was better than you, I was trying to give you reason to think that we have something in common in order to connect our common ground.
(But saying the parents were selfish was a little premature, I wouldn't be surprised if you regreted it before I even brought it back up. I can imagine more selfish things for a parent to do in order to climb a 20,000 foot peak- like boarding your kids until you return.)
|
|
|
|
|
jred
Feb 24, 2006, 4:19 AM
Post #107 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 750
|
[quote="lewisiarediviva"]jred, I actually remember you mentioning this point of yours. I felt I had points to make from a parenting perspective, and as I sat here thinking of about how challenging such a task is I realized how much it actually related to my daily life and how Aidan's parents went above and beyond thier normal challenges that in themselves are above and beyond mine. I, like I have said, setting aside risks- am in awe.
I felt that everytime I shared my thoughts you came back and said "but we are talking about 20,000 foot peaks." Well, no, originally we were talking about parents taking an [autistic] kid up [20,000 ft] peaks. I feel like you took out everything but the kid and the 20,000 feet. I think the story talks about a million other things. When I addressed you in my first few post I was by all means NOT telling you that I was better than you, I was trying to give you reason to think that we have something in common in order to connect our common ground.
(But saying the parents were selfish was a little premature, I wouldn't be surprised if you regreted it before I even brought it back up. I can imagine more selfish things for a parent to do in order to climb a 20,000 foot peak- like boarding your kids until you return.In reply to: Lew, I truly appreciate your perspective as a parent, I just feel that you were lumping this activity in with activities of much lesser danger. I really do feel they are as different as chalk and cheese, a tough comparison. Never, not once did I feel you were talking to me in any condesending fashion and I was well aware of our common ground (love of children, rock climbing, etc). Please keep in mind this is the internet and if this were a personal conversation you would see no hostility. Perhaps saying the parents are selfish was a little hasty, but I would definately not say it was selfless either. Parents do what they think is best for their kids (well most of 'em), sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they assume their interests will also be their kids. I really tried to take the focus off of this particular instance and the subject (I had thought) became more generalized (should 8yr. olds climb above 20'000ft.) I had hoped this would eliminate the emotional element. I too am well impressed that the little bugger had the stamina, good for him. |
|
|
|
|
carabiner96
Apr 10, 2006, 11:25 AM
Post #108 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2006
Posts: 12610
|
if he's doing this is 8, at this rate he will have climbed everest naked without 0xygen by the time he's 16...whats he gonna do for the rest of his life??? might get boring once you've run out of things to do...
i don't regret my parents building me a sandbox instead of a climbing wall when i was 8.... :)
|
|
|
|
|
lewisiarediviva
Aug 13, 2006, 7:05 PM
Post #109 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 527
|
That's great Carabiner96, but since you are not saying that you have any level of the Autistic spectrum I'd have to argue that a sandbox just might not cut it for Aidan. Actually, even if you do have a Autism, I would still argue that a sandbox may not cut it for Aidan.
I ran across an interesting fact the other day. The youngest person to summit Mt. Rainier was a 7 year old. (And no, this was not my child.) But obviously the parents of this child were crazy, or very with it and the weather was good.
|
|
|
|
|
dtew
Aug 13, 2006, 10:07 PM
Post #110 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 20, 2006
Posts: 44
|
[sarcasm]
I think I'll encourage my kids to become sexually active at 8 years of age (or whenever their hormones come on-line). I know my kids best, and I know that my children are competent, responsible and resourceful enough to handle this life-enriching experience. Instead of holding them back, I will enable their childhoods to be filled with fond memories of good lays, plus a few well-earned/learned battle scars and attendant wisdom that will serve as stepping stones to bigger and greater things.
It's great that somebody already brought up the fact that the concept of "childhood" and its associated stigma (i.e. limited grasp of consequences and lack of resources to deal with consequences) is an artificial and recent delineation. It should be obvious to everyone that this "legal age of consent" is just an extension of that artificial delineation. Regardless of what you childless-do-gooders say or codify into law, you have no voice in judging what is right for me and my children as long as both child and parent are willing.
My children fully understand the consequences of sex. People often express how difficult it is talking to their children about the "the birds-and-the-bees," but I found it nonsuch. At this point, Molly often points at her crotch and coos, "this is where babies come from." I mean, if this is not a surefire sign that she completely grasps the totality of life-altering ramifications (both emotional and physical) and will face them with stoic acceptance and complete responsibility, I dunno what anything means anymore. Just like when a high-altitude mountaineering 8-year-old says "I could die." He truly understands.
(And on a risk-analysis level, sex should be no big whoops since the potential consequences of sex is considerably less immediately irreversible than that which is regularly encountered in high-altitude mountaineering.)
[/sarcasm]
Keep fighting the good fight, jred. But then again...
(Apologies for that fact that my first post had to be so acerbic. Frustration, minus (-) the will to waste copious debate for naught = satire)
|
|
|
|
|
rockscaler2
Aug 13, 2006, 10:13 PM
Post #111 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 94
|
THAT ISSSSS AWESOME!!!!!!! :lol: :D :shock: :D :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
jred
Aug 13, 2006, 10:49 PM
Post #112 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 750
|
Who dug up this dirty ol' topic anyway?
Thanks for that well written and funny post. You may as well give up now. There is no convincing some people that mountaineering at high altitude is an inappropriate activity for eight year olds, especially eight year olds who have been made into super-humans through autism.
I know I am shouting at the wind, but it dries my mouth so I won't drool.
Nice first post, I look forward to reading your rapier wit on the spicy, emotionaly charged topics of community. (no sarcasm)
|
|
|
|
|
lewisiarediviva
Aug 16, 2006, 7:59 PM
Post #113 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 527
|
In reply to: especially eight year olds who have been made into super-humans through autism.
What?
The important part of Aidan's life that is more interesting to me than the fact that this kid is climbing at dangerous altitudes is the fact that their are parents out their mountaineering with Autistic children. I personally am very interested in that topic.
I kind of wish this "discussion" would have portrayed an environment were parents could have discussed the challenges and awards of climbing with Autistic spectrum kids.
Oh well.
|
|
|
|
|
c4c
Aug 16, 2006, 8:08 PM
Post #114 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 18, 2006
Posts: 1279
|
Just think of all of the hours of tv and video games that kid missed!!! How does anyone expect him to grow up into a respectable part of our society with out that???? :cry: :cry: :cry:
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Aug 16, 2006, 8:17 PM
Post #115 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
Aside from the fact that this photo/saying/cliche has been done to DEATH, you do realize how incredibly gauche it is to post a pic like that in a thread about an AUTISTIC CHILD, right?
Satire? More like tacky and cheap.
|
|
|
|
|
nuts_r_us
Aug 16, 2006, 8:43 PM
Post #116 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2005
Posts: 172
|
In reply to: Aside from the fact that this photo/saying/cliche has been done to DEATH, you do realize how incredibly gauche it is to post a pic like that in a thread about an AUTISTIC CHILD, right?
Thank you Hilary. I would take it a step further and say that that particular picture is incredibly offensive in any thread, and every time I see it, it makes me sick.
This thread is remarkably similar to that thread where that hippie guy and his wife took their young daughter on a "free solo" and took lots of pics for publicity. Lots of folks on here were telling them how to parent also. Only it turned out the pics were manipulated. If I weren't so lazy I would look it up and find it. The dude actually joined rc.com and responded, and basically said, "who are you to tell me how to raise my kids". Good for him.
Sure jred, you have a point. 20K feet is dangerous. But I would rather bring my kid up doing that than have him doing drugs, living in a war zone, hungry/malnourished, etc. It is all relative. Nobody can answer your original question because the answer does not exist. Let it go. Not your kid.
|
|
|
|
|
jred
Aug 16, 2006, 9:11 PM
Post #117 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 750
|
In reply to: In reply to: Aside from the fact that this photo/saying/cliche has been done to DEATH, you do realize how incredibly gauche it is to post a pic like that in a thread about an AUTISTIC CHILD, right? Thank you Hilary. I would take it a step further and say that that particular picture is incredibly offensive in any thread, and every time I see it, it makes me sick. This thread is remarkably similar to that thread where that hippie guy and his wife took their young daughter on a "free solo" and took lots of pics for publicity. Lots of folks on here were telling them how to parent also. Only it turned out the pics were manipulated. If I weren't so lazy I would look it up and find it. The dude actually joined rc.com and responded, and basically said, "who are you to tell me how to raise my kids". Good for him. Sure jred, you have a point. 20K feet is dangerous. But I would rather bring my kid up doing that than have him doing drugs, living in a war zone, hungry/malnourished, etc. It is all relative. Nobody can answer your original question because the answer does not exist. Let it go. Not your kid.
You would rather your kid participate in an extremely dangerous potentially life threatening activity rather than doing drugs, living in a war zone etc? How about neither?
There are kids in the world who are forced to make shoes for wealthy North Americans, there are parents who beat and molest their children, parents who leave their childen home alone to look after themselves, allow their kids to play with guns and so on. Do I not have a right to an opinion on the subject because "it's not my kid"? Fuck that! I think it is a bad idea to bring a child up a twenty thousand foot peak and I have yet to see anything to convince me otherwise other than "it is not your kid" and "you have no idea about raising a child with autism".
|
|
|
|
|
lewisiarediviva
Aug 16, 2006, 9:29 PM
Post #118 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 527
|
In reply to: You would rather your kid participate in an extremely dangerous potentially life threatening activity rather than doing drugs, living in a war zone etc? How about neither? There are kids in the world who are forced to make shoes for wealthy North Americans, there are parents who beat and molest their children, parents who leave their children home alone to look after themselves, allow their kids to play with guns and so on. Do I not have a right to an opinion on the subject because "it's not my kid"? f--- that! I think it is a bad idea to bring a child up a twenty thousand foot peak and I have yet to see anything to convince me otherwise other than "it is not your kid" and "you have no idea about raising a child with autism".
I am convinced that you need a few kids, badly.
|
|
|
|
|
c4c
Aug 16, 2006, 9:38 PM
Post #119 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 18, 2006
Posts: 1279
|
In reply to: In reply to: You would rather your kid participate in an extremely dangerous potentially life threatening activity rather than doing drugs, living in a war zone etc? How about neither? There are kids in the world who are forced to make shoes for wealthy North Americans, there are parents who beat and molest their children, parents who leave their children home alone to look after themselves, allow their kids to play with guns and so on. Do I not have a right to an opinion on the subject because "it's not my kid"? f--- that! I think it is a bad idea to bring a child up a twenty thousand foot peak and I have yet to see anything to convince me otherwise other than "it is not your kid" and "you have no idea about raising a child with autism". I am convinced that you need a few kids, badly.
I would lend him some of mine for a while but, that might be more dangerous than taking them climbing with me!!!
|
|
|
|
|
dtew
Aug 16, 2006, 9:55 PM
Post #120 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 20, 2006
Posts: 44
|
In reply to: Aside from the fact that this photo/saying/cliche has been done to DEATH, you do realize how incredibly gauche it is to post a pic like that in a thread about an AUTISTIC CHILD, right? Satire? More like tacky and cheap.
In reply to: Thank you Hilary. I would take it a step further and say that that particular picture is incredibly offensive in any thread, and every time I see it, it makes me sick.
It's called, "Not caring enough to waste time to construct/photoshop a new joke when an existing threadbare cliche will suffice."
And you're the ones drawing the inference that this all-too-common flamewar icon is somehow meant to equate autism with mental retardation. While it is known that 75-90% of autistic individuals may be qualified as mentally retarded, most people (perhaps through pop-media depictions such as "Rain Man") do understand that that they are two different phenomenons.
I'm pretty sure you might be injecting your own bias regarding what people might have misconceptions about.
BTW, does anyone notice that throughout this debate people keep throwing out the red herring/diversion that the kid is autistic? Did anybody notice that nobody really cared, simply because others were busy making the point that NO version of any 8-year-old child should be encouraged by their parents to participate in high-altitude mountaineering?
Since respondents saw fit to conveniently overlook the 90% of my post illustrating the limitations of family sovereignty, which is what the entire debate was about...
...I'll remove that reference just so this debate isn't going to be derailed by something that had no bearing on what I was saying. The intent was simply a personal message to jred, warning that incessant debate is pointless. And I'll make an attempt next time to select an Internet cliche sufficiently milquetoast to keep from bruising any oversensitive sensibilities, lest people become confused and start accusing me of Rumsfeldian neo-imperialist attitudes over:
http://www2.fileplanet.com/...0000/56789ss_sm2.jpg
If "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel," then political correctness must be the last refuge for people who decide to miss the point completely.
Moving on. :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Aug 16, 2006, 10:09 PM
Post #121 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
In reply to: In reply to: Aside from the fact that this photo/saying/cliche has been done to DEATH, you do realize how incredibly gauche it is to post a pic like that in a thread about an AUTISTIC CHILD, right? Satire? More like tacky and cheap. In reply to: Thank you Hilary. I would take it a step further and say that that particular picture is incredibly offensive in any thread, and every time I see it, it makes me sick. It's called, "Not caring enough to waste time to construct/photoshop a new joke when an existing threadbare cliche will suffice." And you're the ones drawing the inference that this all-too-common flamewar icon is somehow meant to equate autism with mental retardation. While it is known that 75-90% of autistic individuals may be qualified as mentally retarded, most people (perhaps through pop-media depictions such as "Rain Man") do understand that that they are two different phenomenons. I'm pretty sure you might be injecting your own bias regarding what people might have misconceptions about. BTW, does anyone notice that throughout this debate people keep throwing out the red herring/diversion that the kid is autistic? Did anybody notice that nobody really cared, simply because people were busy making the point that NO version of any 8-year-old child should be encouraged by their parents to participate in high-altitude mountaineering? Since respondents saw fit to conveniently overlook the 90% of my post illustrating the limitations of family sovereignty, which is what the entire debate was about... I'll make an attempt next time to select an Internet cliche sufficiently milquetoast that'll keep from bruising any oversensitive sensibilities, lest people become confused and start accusing me of neo-imperialist attitudes over: http://www2.fileplanet.com/...0000/56789ss_sm2.jpg :roll: If "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel," then political correctness must be the last refuge for people who decide to miss the point. Moving on...
Do understand that I know about autism, thank you, and did before Dustin Hoffman won his Oscar and before Google allowed me to find tidbits about it.
I really don't give a shit about the bulk of your thesaurus-fortified deepthawts, because your one poorly thought out dig brought the whole thing crashing down.
Look, the mountaineering child IS disabled, most autistics ARE mentally retarded (as you wanted me to know that you know, and yes, I know Down's syndrome, as the kid you found in your Google images search has, is not the same) and they DO participate in the Special Olympics. Really should have been a no-brainer to not use that image in this thread. You can be an obnoxious, affected ass without busting out the Special Olympics cliche, you know.
|
|
|
|
|
dtew
Aug 16, 2006, 10:19 PM
Post #122 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 20, 2006
Posts: 44
|
In reply to: I really don't give a s--- about the bulk of your thesaurus-fortified deepthawts, because your one poorly thought out dig brought the whole thing crashing down.
That's all I needed to hear, and the feeling is mutual. :D
Since you obviously aren't interested in debating, that's fine with me.
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Aug 16, 2006, 10:25 PM
Post #123 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
In reply to: In reply to: I really don't give a s--- about the bulk of your thesaurus-fortified deepthawts, because your one poorly thought out dig brought the whole thing crashing down. That's all I needed to hear, and the feeling is mutual. :D Since you obviously aren't interested in debating, that's fine with me.
No, I'm not "interested in debating." I haven't been interested in that since I graduated high school and left the forensics team behind me.
|
|
|
|
|
atpeaceinbozeman
Aug 16, 2006, 10:35 PM
Post #124 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2002
Posts: 478
|
Some questions and comments I wrote back on page 5...
When was the last fatality on Island Peak?
When was the last guided fatality on Island Peak?
OK, let us say that an eight year old can't make decisions in an emergency situation.
Are there examples of guided adults freezing up and still being rescued? I've heard guides refer to guiding as 'baby sitting'...Why is that?
Excuse me if I'm wrong, but there has been no evidence presented in this forum discussion to indicate that high altitude has a negative effect on any developing organs, including lungs and brain.
So if there is someone out there with answers to any of my questions, or studies about developing organs and high altitude, please post up.
If you came to debate, I feel these are the things that need to be addressed.
Or were you trying to show everyone here on RC.com how cool you were with that tired photo?
Nice first post....
Tom
|
|
|
|
|
dtew
Aug 16, 2006, 10:43 PM
Post #125 of 146
(13553 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 20, 2006
Posts: 44
|
In reply to: No, I'm not "interested in debating." I haven't been interested in that since I graduated high school and left the forensics team behind me.
I dunno, you could've fooled me on that one. :lol: Going "nah nah nah nah nah I don't have a point but you don't have a point either because I don't like something you said and I don't like your language" is a bit juvenile. Can't blame my surprise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
