It seems every time someone asks a question about training, or attempts to have a meaningful discussion, it doesn’t take long for some moron to chime in with “I train my biceps by lifting a beer up to my fat face.” Insecure and below average climbers love to bash those of us with enough self respect to seek improvement. Someone once said: “Anything worth doing is worth doing well.” I believe this applies to climbing as well as it does anything else in life. I cannot understand the attitude of someone who would spend every weekend out on the rock, but not be at least mildly interested in getting better.

Mike, thanks for all the time, effort, and research. I read it, I'm inspired to use it to develop my own training regiment. I was a distance runner myself, and a wrestler as well, combined with avid weight-lifting for almost a decade before I ever became a "regular" climber. When climbing began, everything else seemed to... end. Bad idea, really.

just one question. im planning on building a campus board. what angle is your campus board at and do you like it that way? if you could, how would you change it?

One thing though. By the tone in your article and by looking at your program it seems like you are climbing to train better, not the other way around.

That is could you put a link to work-out sheets that is easier to read.

My board is 15 degrees off of the vertical. Metolious recommends that angle, and I've always liked it. The only thing I would change would be to come up with some way to take weight off while you campus so that you can transition into doing three and two-finger moves. I have not come up with a good way to do this, though. I think it would also be cool to have a set of rungs that was essentially six identical hangboards stacked on top of each other, but that would be expensive!

My board is 15 degrees off of the vertical. Metolious recommends that angle, and I've always liked it. The only thing I would change would be to come up with some way to take weight off while you campus so that you can transition into doing three and two-finger moves. I have not come up with a good way to do this, though.

The purpose of the hangboard is to train your forearms, and body builders have long understood that the best way to train a muscle is to isolate it. These other tools do the exact opposite by attempting to train all the various muscle groups involved in climbing movement at once, making it virtually impossible to ensure that any one muscle is stressed until failure.

The other thought is that there's been some excellent research done by a Dr. William Kraemer (was at Penn State, not sure where he is now) that shows exercising at a very high intensity (whole body movements done at a pace that jacks your heart rate to the max) generates a response similar to taking hormones. It's referred to as the neuroendocrine response. Now, body builders don't need that effect since they are already taking steroids. But for mortals with a fear of needles, it's a path to hypertrophy. Plus you get the aerobic conditioning for free, so it's a two-fer.

So in short, there could be real benefits to either doing grip training as whole body movements, or to wrap grip training into a larger interval training, where instead of resting between grip reps, you are doing something else.

Just food for thought, since you seem to be a thinking kind of guy.

thanks mike

really great article

The purpose of the hangboard is to train your forearms, and body builders have long understood that the best way to train a muscle is to isolate it.

I’m quite skeptical that the exercises that go along with these tools even cause hypertrophy. The number and duration of the repetitions, and the load put on the muscle seem more in line with Power Endurance exercises than hypertrophy. The only way to ensure hypertrophy is to load the muscle until failure quickly (not as a result of a pump).

The purpose of the hangboard is to train your forearms, and body builders have long understood that the best way to train a muscle is to isolate it.

I did squat for the first time in years two days ago. I also played around with the o-lifts. It was really fun, didn't really feel worked till I bent over a couple hours later and couldn't stand up.

Little is known concerning the testosterone response to varying the sequence of exercises during resistance training. It has been suggested that large muscle-mass exercises be performed prior to small muscle-mass exercises.[1] The hypothesis is that performance of large muscle-mass exercises (i.e. squat, deadlift, power clean) early in the workout may produce significant elevations in testosterone, which potentially may expose smaller muscles to a greater response than that resulting from performance of small muscle-mass exercises only. This hypothesis recently examined. Hansen et al.[28] measured muscle strength changes in the elbow flexor muscles following 9 weeks of resistance training. However, one group performed a workout consisting of elbow flexion exercises only and a second group performed lower-body exercises prior to the elbow exercises. Performing elbow-flexion exercises only failed to acutely elevate testosterone significantly. However, testosterone was significantly elevated when lower-body exercises were performed first, and muscle strength increased to a greater extent as well when both lower- and upper-body exercises were performed. These data provide support for performing large muscle mass, multiple-joint exercises early in a workout and smaller muscle mass exercises later in the workout when training to enhance muscle strength.

Resistance exercise elevates human GH (growth hormone) through 30 minutes post exercise for both men and women...protocols eliciting high lactate values (e.g. moderate to high in intensity, high in volume, stress large muscle mass, use relatively short rest intervals) tend to produce the most substantial GH responses.

A bit more on weight training as it´s a bit of my field so to speak.

- Bodybuilders ARE usually very very strong. The muscle gets stronger by enhanced neural activity or getting bigger. They are not that strong compared to their weight though. It´s because they do very small amounts of power training. But hey, a 10x250kg deadlift for a 100 kg bodybuilder is a pretty good feat of strength anyway. It´s a beauty contest but the training is very hard basic strenght training. (Basic here is meaning hypertrophic).

- It´s true that bodybuilders are not that good in doing multidirectional work like lifting stones if they don´t train for action like it. Strongmen do. I coach a top Finnish strongman among some other pretty strong fellows (and yes, many of them actually are drug free. Drugs are not my game). Strongmen are strong because they train for being strong. The big muscles come more like as a side effect. The other way around with bodybuilders: the strength is a byproduct. Anyway even if this friend of mine can almost close a number four Captain Of Crush gripper and deadlifts 380 kgs he can´t hang on an inch edge at all. It´s a thing of specifity, again.

- There is NO WAY some training system can give even close the same benefits as drugs. Therefore the neuroendocrine thing is not that amazing a thing. And: bodybuilders do a lot of basic stuff like squat, benches etc. It´s true though that doing multijoint exercises like squat, deadlift etc. has a bigger effect on body growth hormone and testosterone levels than doing curls etc. And: powerlifters take the juice too.

even if this friend of mine can almost close a number four Captain Of Crush gripper....

- Usually the basic period consists of more volume on submax weights around 60-85% of ones max. After that comes the neural period where the muscles are trained with 85-105% weights. The idea here is the same as in
recruitment training in climbing. The firing frequency of muscle motor units are trained to get higher.

protocols eliciting high lactate values (e.g. moderate to high in intensity, high in volume, stress large muscle mass, use relatively short rest intervals) tend to produce the most substantial GH responses.

I'm very interested in this neuroendocrine response....


This description sounds to me like what we climbers would call "Power Endurance" work because he's talking about high volume, short rest intervals, producing high lactate and getting the heart pumping. I don't know enough about generic weight lifting like squats, and "O" lifts, but do they do that?

This couldn't have come up at a better time for me personally. After a two year layoff, I am getting back to the gym again for the first time.

What do people think about doing hypertrophy/fingers on the same day as hypertrophy/upperbody? I tried last night night and it just about killed me. I did a finger workout first, and i was just wrecked when i tried to lift (crossfit o-lift workout). I have some question about how rested I was, but I am curious about whether people lift on the same day that they do a climbing hypertrophy workout.

Tue - Strength and lactic tolerance (non-climbing) training. Intense!

What kind of training do you do? Run? Row? Doing weights?

rockprodigy (and others)- how would you change your work out if your goals were more focused on bouldering?

I know that your forte is hard bigwalls (which isn't to say that your bouldering skills are unimpressive), but say you were thinking "this season I want to send Black Lung or the Mandala or run laps on Copperhead (or maybe get the elusive v13 sit repeat)" what would you do differently?

Obviously I'm asking because I don't see hard Zion FA's in my future, but would love to wrestle harder pebbles this coming fall. Thanks.

Schedule during HYP phase is roughly as follows...

Mon - Hangboarding HYP. 1.5 hour session.
Tue - Strength and lactic tolerance (non-climbing) training. Intense!
Wed - rest
Thu - Indoor climbing in the gym. Just doing routes, not much structure.
Fri - rest
Sat - Outdoors. Medium to high intensity, not bouldery routes however.
Sun - rest

I realise that not everything I'm doing directly relates to HYP but I'm meeting you halfway :D

I think everyone should be cautioned about weighted training. While this can lead to quick muscle hypertrophy, tendons build strength much slower. Thus, you risk tendon injury when your muscles get stronger too quickly.

USNA over USAFA anyday.

I don't want to s--- on anyones parade but in my experience the best was to climb hard problems is to get on something hard and just work it for months.

Yeah, in the pics when you're on the hangboard, your arms are pretty straight.

I did skim the article, so I missed the reasoning behind why this program would strengthen your tendons better than any other. I'll reread it.

Hmm, if it was true that tendon strength was more than twice muscle, we would all be pulling muscles not straining tendons! That may be true for untrained muscle, but not for hypertrophied muscle. Muscles get stronger much faster than tendons. It also assumed the tendons are completely healthy, which climbers tendons rarely are. If there's any hint of tendonitis, the tendon is compromised.

And the article you found does only relate to repaired tendons, not healty ones. The healing cascade does not occur when there is no insult to the tendon. Healthy tendon is a completely different beast than repaired tendon. There would be no reason for healthy tendon to suddenly get weaker at 5-21 days.

Yes, pulley injuries are much more common that long tendon injuries, but I have seen quite a few long tendon injuries. They take a long time to rehab, so they are best to be avoided.

I don't want to s--- on anyones parade but in my experience the best was to climb hard problems is to get on something hard and just work it for months. if you can stay motivated you will see huge improvements really quickly- this summer I jumped 5 grade in 4 months from the ocasional v6 to v11 simply by getting out and cranking on the hardest problems I could find (after warming up- that s--- is imporatant). the way i see it if you have a good day training you just end up spent or maybe be able to campus or do weighted hangs a little longer. were as after I have a good day I am worked but usually have made progress on or have sent a hard problem which feels more rewarding and motivating. Praxis my friends is some key beta.

I wonder how bent the elbows need to be. That's something I'm trying to figure out presently. It is so important not to stretch out the shoulder capsule and ligaments!

Rock prodigy you raise an interesting point but about climbing consistantly and becoming a better climber, but in my (limited) experience i found that climbing has more to do with how much climbing I do than how much training I do.

for tim i would say that the best way to climb big walls is to live on a big wall and just send on that s--- constantly, but I don't climb big walls yet so my advice is a moot point. However since in my post I was talking about strategies to boulder harder I don't know what big walls have to do with anything.

When I was climbing v6 i was training heavily instead of climbing and i could campus like a champ but it just didn't translate to outdoors hence my aversion to training except for hangboarding and stretching.

Rock prodigy you raise an interesting point but about climbing consistantly and becoming a better climber, but in my (limited) experience i found that climbing has more to do with how much climbing I do than how much training I do. for example you suggest campus training- I suggest climbing so that you can use your feet in every instance through flexibility and technique- how often are there absolutely no possibilities for foot placement outside? you can even smear on a 45 or roof to take weight. with regards to being able to flash most routes instead of camping on one hard one.. for me sending v8 or v9 is pretty casual because it just isn't as hard or painful- take the example of getting on a v4 instead of a v6 and the level of pain has dropped into a comfortable area. When I was climbing v6 i was training heavily instead of climbing and i could campus like a champ but it just didn't translate to outdoors hence my adversion to training except for hangboarding and stretching.

I'd say good finger strength is about 3% of what it takes to climb well.

for tim i would say that the best way to climb big walls is to live on a big wall and just send on that s--- constantly, but I don't climb big walls yet so my advice is a moot point. However since in my post I was talking about strategies to boulder harder I don't know what big walls have to do with anything.
Rock prodigy you raise an interesting point but about climbing consistantly and becoming a better climber, but in my (limited) experience i found that climbing has more to do with how much climbing I do than how much training I do. for example you suggest campus training- I suggest climbing so that you can use your feet in every instance through flexibility and technique- how often are there absolutely no possibilities for foot placement outside? you can even smear on a 45 or roof to take weight. with regards to being able to flash most routes instead of camping on one hard one.. for me sending v8 or v9 is pretty casual because it just isn't as hard or painful- take the example of getting on a v4 instead of a v6 and the level of pain has dropped into a comfortable area. When I was climbing v6 i was training heavily instead of climbing and i could campus like a champ but it just didn't translate to outdoors hence my adversion to training except for hangboarding and stretching.

but for training for hard boulder problems I stick by my guns that climbing is the best way to get strong quick.

in regards to the midnight ligtning/noob comment- I was lurking under a v10 when I could barely climb v5, and I was fine.

ps. for anyone offended by all the grade spraying i'm sorry about that but just saying really hard boulder problem makes it hard to quantify the advantages of climbing to train.

thanks for both your well thought out replies- I believe that by working problems that I can't do I am training my weaknesses-since i can't do a move then by definition that move is a weakness for me, therefore by not giving up and consistantly working my weaknesses i.e problems that i initially fell off I am getting stronger. like I said before I don't like flashing problems or even necessarily sending them, for some perverse reason I have more fun working and failing then sending. a good day out would be "hey I fell of x v12 97 times but got one more move as opposed to the day when I actually send.

. . . for some perverse reason I have more fun working and failing then sending. a good day out would be "hey I fell of x v12 97 times but got one more move as opposed to the day when I actually send.

Actually, I just started incorporating some of your ideas. Last week, instead of doing my regular Hangboard routine:

For each grip position (7 each):
7 reps x 7 sec w/ 3 sec rest
2 min rest
6 reps x 7 sec w/ 3 sec rest
2 min rest
5 reps x 7 sec w/ 3 sec rest

I did this instead:

For each grip Position (7 each):
5 reps x 7 sec w/3 sec rest
1 min rest
5 reps x 7 sec w/3 sec rest
1 min rest
4 reps x 7 sec w/3 sec rest
1 min rest
4 reps x 7 sec w/3 sec rest

I figure this is about the same volume as I usually do, but it's an additional set, so next time, I will add reps, and thus, increase the volume, like you have suggested.

you can do 30 pull ups in one continuous set? moreover, you can repeat that set 3 times?

sorry about the drift.

Hypertrophy, women, and climbers...

I'm going to have to try a couple of Oly clean/hangboard workouts, see how it goes. On ewhere it's mixed, one where it's not. I'll report back.

Why don't you try Tabata-ing for climbing related movement. I mean, in CF "Tabata This", you do 8 sets of 20 seconds of movement with 10 sec. rest between each, four rounds for four different exercise. It's easy to combine a moderate weight C&J and/or Deadlift with hangboard or bouldering.

Give it a try, and post the results for us to enlighten.

what kinda comment is that???


e) something else?

See what happens when you juice!

bad steroids, bad!

I understand if you are a fairly new climber, but I have heard of top level climbers hardly taking a day off.

I felt like crap when I tried to integrate climbing exercises into a CF workout. The aerobic intensity drops off so precipitously that it's just a rest, no matter how hard i'm pulling or how hard the route. (all things being equal of course)

I much prefer doing full CF workouts and full climbing workouts. I've done things like tabata this in the climbing area, but the point of tabatas is to keep on the verge of anerobic failure, which i just can't do climbing. Fight gone bad or similar can work as a climbing workout very well.

I'm working up to do 30 muscleups in a row.

Oh and have replaced your rings with ice axe handles yet? make 'em outta pvc pipe and 6mm cord...