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sidepull
Feb 9, 2006, 8:25 PM
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In reply to: Rock prodigy you raise an interesting point but about climbing consistantly and becoming a better climber, but in my (limited) experience i found that climbing has more to do with how much climbing I do than how much training I do. for example you suggest campus training- I suggest climbing so that you can use your feet in every instance through flexibility and technique- how often are there absolutely no possibilities for foot placement outside? you can even smear on a 45 or roof to take weight. with regards to being able to flash most routes instead of camping on one hard one.. for me sending v8 or v9 is pretty casual because it just isn't as hard or painful- take the example of getting on a v4 instead of a v6 and the level of pain has dropped into a comfortable area. When I was climbing v6 i was training heavily instead of climbing and i could campus like a champ but it just didn't translate to outdoors hence my adversion to training except for hangboarding and stretching.
It seems to me that without the base you built by doing all of the is training that didn't seem to translate that you wouldn't have had the conditioning to make such a radical jump in performance. In other words, while you couldn't find a problem that replicated campusing and therefore the skill didn't seem to translate, the stress placed on the tendons and muscles prepared you to try increasingly more stressful problems without quickly incurring an injury that would have cut short your progress. In other words, your experience is still highly tangled up in training and your progress is arguably more due to training enabling you to camp out on hard problems rather than the camping itself. Imagine the average beginning climber: if he or she were to camp out in front of midnight lightning for months it's perhaps more likely that the result would be a blown tendon or a shoulder injury and not better climbing specific strength. Seige tactics in bouldering won't work unless you have the fitness to support it.
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elemental
Feb 9, 2006, 8:58 PM
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Aimee and Mike...and everyone else...
The hangboard joint-angle question has been a big one for several years. The important thing in fingerboard workouts is to avoid a dead "lockout" on the shoulders and elbows. The arms can still be straight, but the joints must be held under active tension. I am almost certain you do this already, Mike.
Active tension is achieved by "faking" the start of a pull-up, tensioning the muscles of the back and shoulders (your shoulders will spread a little and your torso may come up a few centimeters...). This allows the joints to move into an active position - where they are LESS LIKELY to sustain injury.
We've messed around with lock-offs of 10, 45, 90, 135 degrees, but these all tend to take the focus off the fingers. I think the straight hang is the "golden fleece" of measurable, sustainable improvement in finger strength. That being said, I'd say good finger strength is about 3% of what it takes to climb well.
Steve
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manacubus
Feb 9, 2006, 11:15 PM
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In reply to: I'd say good finger strength is about 3% of what it takes to climb well. |
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ben
Feb 10, 2006, 12:19 AM
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word tim thanks for the thoughtful post- I'm lucky in that living in halifax, nova scotia within 30 minutes at the most of tons of good boulder problems means that i can get out alot- thus the camping out technique. I agree that camping out on a X rated trad climb/big wall is definately not the best training programme unless you feel like dieing but for me onsighting stuff takes alot of the fun out of climbing so I don't often climb stuff where not onsighting means death. different strokes eh? but for training for hard boulder problems I stick by my guns that climbing is the best way to get strong quick.
in regards to the midnight ligtning/noob comment- I was lurking under a v10 when I could barely climb v5, and I was fine.
ps. for anyone offended by all the grade spraying i'm sorry about that but just saying really hard boulder problem makes it hard to quantify the advantages of climbing to train.
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organic
Feb 10, 2006, 1:24 AM
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In reply to: for tim i would say that the best way to climb big walls is to live on a big wall and just send on that s--- constantly, but I don't climb big walls yet so my advice is a moot point. However since in my post I was talking about strategies to boulder harder I don't know what big walls have to do with anything. Rock prodigy you raise an interesting point but about climbing consistantly and becoming a better climber, but in my (limited) experience i found that climbing has more to do with how much climbing I do than how much training I do. for example you suggest campus training- I suggest climbing so that you can use your feet in every instance through flexibility and technique- how often are there absolutely no possibilities for foot placement outside? you can even smear on a 45 or roof to take weight. with regards to being able to flash most routes instead of camping on one hard one.. for me sending v8 or v9 is pretty casual because it just isn't as hard or painful- take the example of getting on a v4 instead of a v6 and the level of pain has dropped into a comfortable area. When I was climbing v6 i was training heavily instead of climbing and i could campus like a champ but it just didn't translate to outdoors hence my adversion to training except for hangboarding and stretching.
You make an interesting point but it is not completely valid. #1 as you said you were strong initially, you probably needed technique to supplement your strength so "just climbing" helped a lot. Most people are the opposite. Also it seems either a.) you put in a lot of time climbing b.) you have natural predisposition to climbing. If you are sending V10 consistently and not just "your type of problem" then at some point in time you must have trained your weaknesses or at least focused on improving them. Rockprodigy's training program is a systematic way to improve strength in many areas which "just climbing" will not do.
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sidepull
Feb 10, 2006, 1:43 AM
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In reply to: but for training for hard boulder problems I stick by my guns that climbing is the best way to get strong quick.
While I realize that this is your preference the point is that this claim is confounded by the fact that your previous training arguably provided the base to make this leap. It's simply impossible to separate the two. In fact, it's likely that you correlate your success with "seiging" because that occured after the training and therefore the training was further removed from the success and so it was harder to see the connection.
In reply to: in regards to the midnight ligtning/noob comment- I was lurking under a v10 when I could barely climb v5, and I was fine.
That doesn't discount my point for two reasons: 1st, I already noted that your training most likely put you in a position to not get hurt, 2nd, the grade difference between noob (v0-1) and Midnight lightning is bigger than v5 to v10.
I'd like to hear other's opinions on this. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe noobs would just fall off.
In reply to: ps. for anyone offended by all the grade spraying i'm sorry about that but just saying really hard boulder problem makes it hard to quantify the advantages of climbing to train.
I don't think you were spraying at all (in fact as someone who's hovered in the v5-7 range for two years I'm a bit jealous) but grades don't necessarily quantify things. If you can hang holds you couldn't before and if you're feeling stronger then more power to you. While that most likely translates to bigger grades it might not.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic at all, but if you should head to J-tree or Fontainbleau or Castle Hill or any other area that features rock and angles that are radically different than what you climb on and see how many v9's you onsight. I'd bet the number drops significantly. Does that mean you've regressed? No, it means grades don't quantify things and therefore you don't provide a compelling case for why climbing sans training is superior to climbing facilitated by training.
In fact, in anecdotal evidence to the contrary, DrTopo had a movie about the FA of a Canadian 5.14 a year or so ago. They showed like 4 different climbers working the route. Three of them were well-rounded climbers and one was a guy that had never climbed harder than 5.12 but had been trying this route for a long time. Guess who got the FA - not the siege-tactics guy, not even close.
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ben
Feb 10, 2006, 2:11 AM
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thanks for both your well thought out replies- I believe that by working problems that I can't do I am training my weaknesses-since i can't do a move then by definition that move is a weakness for me, therefore by not giving up and consistantly working my weaknesses i.e problems that i initially fell off I am getting stronger. like I said before I don't like flashing problems or even necessarily sending them, for some perverse reason I have more fun working and failing then sending. a good day out would be "hey I fell of x v12 97 times but got one more move as opposed to the day when I actually send.
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organic
Feb 10, 2006, 5:01 AM
Post #83 of 138
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In reply to: thanks for both your well thought out replies- I believe that by working problems that I can't do I am training my weaknesses-since i can't do a move then by definition that move is a weakness for me, therefore by not giving up and consistantly working my weaknesses i.e problems that i initially fell off I am getting stronger. like I said before I don't like flashing problems or even necessarily sending them, for some perverse reason I have more fun working and failing then sending. a good day out would be "hey I fell of x v12 97 times but got one more move as opposed to the day when I actually send.
Just because you get better at something doesn't mean you are working a weakness. If I work a V10 sloper problem but can't do a V7 roof problem, then working the V10 might help but working the V7 would be working my weakness.
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sidepull
Feb 10, 2006, 5:17 PM
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In reply to: . . . for some perverse reason I have more fun working and failing then sending. a good day out would be "hey I fell of x v12 97 times but got one more move as opposed to the day when I actually send.
I actually like that attitude and it's probably a big reason for your success.
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danabart
Feb 13, 2006, 12:29 AM
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Aimeerose,
You mention that there is strong evidence that tendons gain strength more slowly than muscles. Could you pm me the info? I've done several Medline and Sportsdiscus literature searches as well as checked out several orthopedic texts focused specifically on tendons, and I was never able to find any information/references that addressed or supported that idea. Thanks.
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jto
Feb 13, 2006, 6:46 AM
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I´m not aimee and I have no reference to show right now but I think the main reason is that there is a huge difference in blood flow when comparing muscle and tendon areas. That´s why tendons heal slower too.
I´m a strength and power coach and see way too many tendon injuries occurring to steroid users (no, they´re not my cattle). That happens because the muscle really does get stronger faster and the tendons can´t keep up. Usually the tendon rips out of the bone but many times also from the muscle end. I haven´t seen so many injuries where the tendon has injured in the middle of it.
rockprodigy,
Still haven´t tried my fingerboard system? :D
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rockprodigy
Feb 13, 2006, 6:28 PM
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Actually, I just started incorporating some of your ideas. Last week, instead of doing my regular Hangboard routine:
For each grip position (7 each):
7 reps x 7 sec w/ 3 sec rest
2 min rest
6 reps x 7 sec w/ 3 sec rest
2 min rest
5 reps x 7 sec w/ 3 sec rest
I did this instead:
For each grip Position (7 each):
5 reps x 7 sec w/3 sec rest
1 min rest
5 reps x 7 sec w/3 sec rest
1 min rest
4 reps x 7 sec w/3 sec rest
1 min rest
4 reps x 7 sec w/3 sec rest
I figure this is about the same volume as I usually do, but it's an additional set, so next time, I will add reps, and thus, increase the volume, like you have suggested.
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sidepull
Feb 13, 2006, 6:56 PM
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do you do each grip in succession before you go to the next set? and what order to you do your grip training (I assume hardest grip to easiest)? That just looks like a lot of hanging.
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jto
Feb 13, 2006, 7:52 PM
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Sounds ok. I think you´ll have very good gains if you keep changing the rep and pause lengths too. I still stand behind my line: "you don´t have to reach failure in every set". And that comes from 15 years telling people what to do with iron. :D
Anyway if you want to reach the failure it would be easy to change only the rep system every workout like this and keep the pauses the same:
- sets with 10 sec reps and 3 sec pauses.
- sets with 7 sec reps and 3 sec pauses.
- sets with 4 sec reps and 3 sec pauses.
This way you can use bigger and bigger weights every workout. When you come back to 10 sec reps again you´ll use more than the last time etc.
Lot´s of blaa blaa, but I´d love to see it work really good for you.
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organic
Feb 13, 2006, 8:34 PM
Post #90 of 138
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In reply to: Actually, I just started incorporating some of your ideas. Last week, instead of doing my regular Hangboard routine: For each grip position (7 each): 7 reps x 7 sec w/ 3 sec rest 2 min rest 6 reps x 7 sec w/ 3 sec rest 2 min rest 5 reps x 7 sec w/ 3 sec rest I did this instead: For each grip Position (7 each): 5 reps x 7 sec w/3 sec rest 1 min rest 5 reps x 7 sec w/3 sec rest 1 min rest 4 reps x 7 sec w/3 sec rest 1 min rest 4 reps x 7 sec w/3 sec rest I figure this is about the same volume as I usually do, but it's an additional set, so next time, I will add reps, and thus, increase the volume, like you have suggested.
Wouldn't you want to increase rest times? Lots of secondary muscles are involved especially cause the excercises are so similar wouldn't you want to increase those rests so you could push your other muscles further?
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jto
Feb 15, 2006, 12:50 PM
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I think more relevant issue is the change in the rep and pause length as it determines how much work is done per rep. I think the 7 sec rep and 3 sec pause protocol is in no way carved in stone.
One could hang longer or shorter reps and rest more or less (the latter is not so easy as 3 secs is already a very short rest and there´s no possibility to chalk up etc.). The only think that matters is that there is progression in volume and weights. I think playing around with different microlevel workout structures keeps things more progressive and interesting. This doesn´t mean that the macrolevel workout plan is somehow unstructured. No way. The opposite in fact.
I´m in no position to give advice to a person who climbs a number higher grades than me but as it is my field in someway I think I could keep up the discussion anyway haahaa.
Cheers.
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lemon_boy
Feb 15, 2006, 8:48 PM
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thanks for the great article rockprodigy. i have been using the hangboard quite a bit over the last 5 years and i definitely think it has helped. actually, i should say that i know it has helped because i have kept a climbing log the entire time and i have improved a lot.
also, thanks to elemental for the input on elbow bend and shoulder stuff. i have always hung fairly straight armed, but with my back and shoulder muscles fairly tight. for the most part it seems like i haven't had any shoulder problems. however, the last year or so my left shoulder has felt a little weird, but i think it might be from sleeping in a poor position. when i sleep, my left arm looks like it has me in a headlock. probably not too good.
i have also had very good results in controlling elbow tendonitis with the hangboard workouts. i really do think that it is true that having a very defined workout schedule, complete with warmups and pre-determined sets of various excercises and reps, can help prevent tendonitis. i have been climbing for approximately 17 years and the first 12 years of that time i had a lot of mild to medium elbow tendonitis. in the last 5 years i have had virtually no elbow tendonitis, and i have been climbing at or above the grades of the previous years.
one of the best things about the hangboard workouts are that you can kind of tailor them to the different areas or routes that you climb. in particular, fingery areas like shelf, penitente, etc lend themselves very well to hangboard training. a few weeks ago i built a couple of "devices" to help train for the ringlock sizes (.5 to .75 camalot) on desert cracks. i can't wait to see how it turns out.
i have some questions for the people in this thread about rep length, rest length, etc. but this post is already to long. i'll be back a bit later.
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nafod
Feb 15, 2006, 9:00 PM
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Tonight's crossfit workout is:
- 30 dumbbell snatches at 30 LBs per DB
- 30 pullups
- Run 800 meters
Repeat that 3 times.
I've got a bit of tendonitis going on, so I'm to try and do some hangboard action instead of the pullups. Currently pondering how to make the switch. I'll report back tomorrow...
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sidepull
Feb 16, 2006, 12:02 AM
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you can do 30 pull ups in one continuous set? moreover, you can repeat that set 3 times?
sorry about the drift.
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nafod
Feb 16, 2006, 2:06 PM
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In reply to: you can do 30 pull ups in one continuous set? moreover, you can repeat that set 3 times? sorry about the drift.
I can do a single set of 30 pullups, but...
I do kipping pullups instead of dead hangs. Turns an isolation exercise into a full body exercise. Really works the abs if you do them right.
The goal of the workout is do it in as short as time as possible (circuit training), so it actually goes faster to break up the 30 into mini-sets with 10-15 seconds between them. Going to failure puts you in a hole and takes longer before you can start cranking again. In the last round of 30 I'm usually doing 4-5 pullups per miniset.
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utkukaynar
Feb 21, 2006, 2:16 PM
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In reply to: Hypertrophy, women, and climbers... I'm going to have to try a couple of Oly clean/hangboard workouts, see how it goes. On ewhere it's mixed, one where it's not. I'll report back.
Why don't you try Tabata-ing for climbing related movement. I mean, in CF "Tabata This", you do 8 sets of 20 seconds of movement with 10 sec. rest between each, four rounds for four different exercise. It's easy to combine a moderate weight C&J and/or Deadlift with hangboard or bouldering.
Give it a try, and post the results for us to enlighten..
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nafod
Feb 21, 2006, 4:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Hypertrophy, women, and climbers... I'm going to have to try a couple of Oly clean/hangboard workouts, see how it goes. On ewhere it's mixed, one where it's not. I'll report back. Why don't you try Tabata-ing for climbing related movement. I mean, in CF "Tabata This", you do 8 sets of 20 seconds of movement with 10 sec. rest between each, four rounds for four different exercise. It's easy to combine a moderate weight C&J and/or Deadlift with hangboard or bouldering. Give it a try, and post the results for us to enlighten.
Been thinking of it. I don't have wall in my garage, so have to wait for spring thaw. Ideally there'd be four problems. Maybe a slab super high step, a dyno to a jug, a roof move, and something else. All reversible. I could count reps of each for 20 seconds, 8 sets per exercise, 16 minutes total, for the "tabata this".
Did the oly lift/hangboard thing. One problem is oly lifting is a heck of a grip and forearm workout in and of itself (if you lower the weights controlled). So later I did a burpee/hangboard workout. A burpee is where you squat down and put hands on ground, kick feet back into pushup position, do pushup. Suck feet back under body, and jump up as high as you can. I did 10 burpees/20 seconds hangboard crimps. You're heart rate is maxed during hangs, but grip is fine. Interesting effect. Still exploring.
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jto
Mar 1, 2006, 10:10 AM
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what kinda comment is that???
a) rockprodigy has turned into a female because of the excess steroid use!
- no, because he earlier stated the person in the pic is his wife/girlfriend.
b) huge weights are only possible when using steroids!
- no, because the weights are not huge in the pic.
c) steroid use in general makes peoples hair grow!
- no, because in males the effect is quite opposite.
d) bad steroids are lurking around the bigger holds and the person in the pic doesn´t see them and is in danger to get attacked.
- could be right.
e) something else?
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ajkclay
Mar 1, 2006, 12:32 PM
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In reply to: what kinda comment is that??? e) something else?
:roll: well I thought it was obvious he was saying that it looks like she has grown testicles :roll:
Adam
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