I give up, you win.

Check the public record, that's a good idea before stating it's all on public land.

You've got me pegged. I am going to take my cookie eating, anti-social, elitist, rash judging, liberal, tree-hugging self and go climb to enjoy climbing.

I'll just do so by not pissing off people that own the land. I might even stop, say, hello and have a nice conversation. Tell them how appreciative I am of them allowing me the priviledge to climb on their land. I'll drive slow to the designated parking area, keep my dog on a leash, and keep my music down. Not because I live in a over-regulated dictatorship, but just because I respect the owners and the people around me. I like being courteous and hope everyone can appreciate the area for years to come.

nuff said.

Oh and most importantly my penis Is the biggest, no argument there.

Does no one understand that its not private land? Check your topo, go get a land survey for that private property. You can see where the private and public land meet and it is not through the rocks, it's not even close!

"I never said don't give your buddy directions, I just said use some prudence and don't slap directions up just anywhere"

There is no way that I can justify giving directions to one person but not the other, even if I have no clue who that other person is. They are directions. I could give advice with them, like, don't trash the place or watch out for the flowers. But that goes back to my original point, educate the person, don't discount them. And if you need to climb alone, build your own wall at home, don't try to secure a natural, Public area for your own good.

have you not realized that whether the climbing is on public or private land is only a component of the issue? okay, let's assume, for the sake of the argument, that the climbing is on public land. whose land is this "public land?" municipal? state? federal?

going off of jrathfon's post, it sounds like there are some residences adjacent. if the volume of people visiting this area go up, vehicular traffic will go up. people coming in and out will become more noticable to others. parking will become an issue; if desigated parking fills up which is more likely? people will think, "oh, it's full today," and move on elsewhere or will they try to wedge their car in somewhere that it doesn't belong? eventually, people complain (to the police, their councilman, or whomever) and access is lost.

the issue isn't so much people keeping the area to themselves for elitist purposes but, instead, either they can climb there and not tell anyone or they can tell people but climbing access will cease to exist. ask yourself, would you rather have a place to yourself, or not at all?

"I never said don't give your buddy directions, I just said use some prudence and don't slap directions up just anywhere"

uh, right. see, you might do a little education of people that you tell but there's no guarantee that they won't take other people willy-nilly without educating them. the growth of visitors at a desired, as it's sounding, place typically isn't linear, it's exponential.

that is spot on.

i was speaking in general about neighborhoods and the whole cascade of the word spreading on "secret" spots.

hunter's is in the middle of state game land, with a few private hunting cabins adjacent. though there aren't kids on treks, people have parked in the driveways to the hunting cabins. that has brought the police and a tow-truck.

i've brought a few people to hunter's, i didn't FBI background check their credentials, but i made sure they understood the situation thoroughly.

to beat the dead horse, i was just pushing exercise respect, and don't tip the scale on already sensitive situations.

I would love to run into the land owner. I would demand he call the police, I would demand a survey done. I would demand a lot of things to prove my case.

y is it ok to advertise directions to every other rock climbing site in the world, except this one? What is special about this site? Is it that it is elitist and only a few special people should be there? Why should we not tell everyone

i've brought a few people to hunter's

i'm sure you would. do you truly realize what you're asking for?

making "demands" is your perogative, just be prepared for the repercussions effected upon you by those you are making them to, as well as those from the community-at-large.

and, seriously, "demand a survey done?" who's going to pay for that resource?

MYTHBUSTERS!!!

No, matter how much you enjoy the seclusion of an area you are being selfish by wanting to keep it all to yourself. Climbing is about people and enjoying nature together. If you want to go out into the middle of nowhere and look at deer come to Southern Illinois we see them on campus and everyday while driving.

Like I said, I am truly a beastiality loving tree-hugger. I am not debating secluded sacred areas, and am not advocating the secret society for the society of secret climbing areas. I have to deal with the crap of secret crags in Mass already. Its an entirely different situation (bolt war) that keeps them secret.

All I was countering from the original post is:

USE COMMON SENSE, DON'T ABUSE A RESOURCE, EXERCISE PRUDENCE, Don't piss off the actual land owner, OR an adjacent land owner.

Sure spider its your god-given right to go piss him off, and spit at him from your side of the line at the rocks. But that is a piss-poor ignorant attitude. Try working with your neighbors, instead of tromping in there and smashing a culture you don't even understand to remove a dictator you don't like who sits on oil and may or may not have weapons of mass destruction. (a better reason is to crush a genocidal maniac :D )

I'm a republican, I have a home gym, I've written guidebooks, I've given directions, I've trespassed, I've even climbed with a crowd. I just feel the situation calls for a non-stereotypical American attitude, one of respect, instead of a Rambo-kungfu style, strip mining, clear-cutting balls to the wall arrogant show-down between man and beast.

just use some COMMON SENSE and maybe some RESPECT!

Oh, this conversation has turned me off of online discussions for good. I am going to play sudoku or something to waste time at work.

Have fun climbing. Destroy the area (or access) or don't.

My liberal, tree-hugging, cookie eating, elitist, anti-social, republican, unleashed dog-owning, alcoholic, irreverant, omnipotent, self-proclaimed god, beastiality indulging, V15 climbing, loud, obnoxious, american self is signing out.

If you know the secret handshake, I'll even PM you directions. I just won't post them.

The only people I've seen there are climbers and beer drinking teens.

Not saying that all climbers do this, but many of the pink lady slippers, puffballs and other rare plants I have seen have been stepped on or squashed by crashpads.

Draw that property line. Get into a dispute. When the dust settles, stay off of his boulders (the majority of the main area). Make sure you paint a white line one foot thick across the rock. I hope it runs through Petunia so you can only climb the start. Remember, once you draw that line, you'll be violating his rights if you put one of your finger tips on his slopers. Invite 1000 people to the public land. Announce directions in a full page ad of the Daily Collegian. Just make sure your droves of people stay off his land as you wish. It's the only fair thing as you said. The public can use their land, and he can say don't climb on my rocks (with a shotgun).

Yeh, I know.

We should just cut off access for anyone else who ever wanted to climb the main area. I'm sure the developers back in the 50's wanted it that way.

I was so silly to want to try to preserve access to the privately owned main area. F--- that! I like to get into land disputes and use my rights to frustrate the neighbors! Sweet! Now I can climb as much rock as I want in the sparse public land adjacent to the main area!

I think it was good as it was, people got directions in a discreet way (PM's or word of mouth). Nobody is getting the "adjacent" land-owner involved and ruffling his feathers. A survey will get him involved. Why go through all this, when you can just exercise prudence like people have done since the 1950's? 50 years of doing it the easy way sounds good to me. I got directions, you got directions, others will get them. If two stooges like myself and you can get there and not piss anyone off, it sounds like a good system.

did the crimper break off the top of standad american accent?

I dont know as I havent been there in a while, but remember when we did this whole s----storm thing like 2 years ago? It's almost exactly the same. This is totally wild!

did the crimper break off the top of standad american accent?

Yeh, I checked that out this morning, fun!

I'm done though, individuals will do what they want.

Yeh, I checked that out this morning, fun!

I'm done though, individuals will do what they want.

I dont know as I havent been there in a while, but remember when we did this whole s----storm thing like 2 years ago? It's almost exactly the same. This is totally wild!

Yeh, I checked this discussion:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=794496#794496

out this morning, FUN!

I'm in Western Mass, the drive to Hunter's is a little far. I think I may go to Rumney or Lincoln Woods though.... sniff

i dunno, i thought i saw some pic's where it didn't exist....

what's up mac? enjoying the west?

is there a new no trespassing sign.... i remember about 5 or so years ago a line of them were posted just to the left of the trail... there was even one right beside verbing... we knew that one was false, so it came down...

funney story... i was going to hunters one moring and pulled into the culdusac and saw 2 cars upside down... then my friend dan came down the trail... he and two other people were camped up by the fire pit... they said they heard a noise...but didn't think to much of it. You should have seen the look on the DEC rangers face when he saw two cars turned over... luckily, they had a good idea of who did it, and he was on his way to jail for another offence... but the ranger did mention there was a plan to gate off the culdusac if there were still kids causing problems there..
moral of the story.... since there are alot of people using the land next to the private property, we've got a huge foothold on the access.... the key is to coordinate and cohabitate with the other user groups.... hikers... botnists.. hunters... and the like...

gotta give some props to the guy who posted the directions for mentioning the endangered species.... good lookin out.....

long story short.... i live in moab, UT... i can walk two minuites and hit a tower or a field of boulders.... so i really have no horse in this race... but there is obviously the climber side of the story and (who ever is posting the land's) side of the story.... and untill they jive....

One last thought, you shouldn't expect the people at app house to take a side on such a heated and contentious debate... they're good people and should be left out of it... although the jeff bouldered there a long time ago....

Peace out PA....

So what I gather from this thread.

The original developers wanted only a select few to know about this area.

From there, it was intended to be a hierarchy which dictates who is allowed to know that it exists.

All landowners adjacent to a property have dictatorial rights as to it's use.

There has been a lot of crap spewed about respecting the property owner's rights, but also by the same people, who want to keep the areas secret so that the land-owners don't become aware that they are trespassing! What a bunch of hypocrites! As a landowner, I understand the frustrations of tresspassers, but I don't presume to dictate what adjacent landowners allow their lands to be used for and most certainly not public lands (yes I do have land adjacent to public lands) Also, from what I understand, the trail leading into the area is on public land, why are people worried about the 'uneducated' accidentally (I find that when people 'wander' onto my property, it's usually not by accident, as they generally have a gun, an orange vest, and a case of beer) wandering onto private land, while heading into the area. If there is not access to the lands via public property, there is STILL the right of ingress and egress, (Which I am also obligated to allow on some parts of my property) which I am certain state lands would have already secured.

I don't know anything about Hunter's but it sounds like an area that (for now anyway) is frequented mostly by selfish pricks who only care about keeping their secret area secret so they don't have to share it with other people. I'm sure THAT is exactly how the original developers envisioned it 50 years ago.

To dharmatreez i say this: "Rock on brother, help keep private lands private, and keep/make public lands public!

I don't know, as far as the property line goes, I always figured the trees with white gamelands paint on them directly down the hill from Verbing showed the end of the public area???


Jason what's new? I'm done with school and taking a job in Reading in a month doing orthopedics. Hopefully get some experience and then make my move out west at some point. Hope all is well, later

One of my biggest confusions of rock climbing are the names of the crags. How do you name the crags and how am I supposed to figure out which ones are which?

One of my biggest confusions of rock climbing are the names of the crags. How do you name the crags and how am I supposed to figure out which ones are which?

Guidebooks?

You said your taking a job in ortho in Reading. Just a long shot but is it with Boas Surgical by any chance?

Where's the Hunter's guidebook?

I don't know if there are any. That post was supposed to say "Are there any Guidbooks?"

Thats It! There is no information for Hunters anywhere! I will set out to create a guide book with the help of some friends. I will publish it and we can finish this debate once and for all! Give me a few months and I should have a rough draft for everyone.

"I have been to Hunter's and it was because of a friend (he has listed all of the things you have in your post) telling me why he loves to climb there. Being invited by him was a privledge and it is a beautiful place. But, there is no way I would go there without him."

My friend taught me to masturbate, but I only do it with him, doing it with someone else seems dirty.

"He talked up the land and the solitude and how pristene it is."

So was my penis before I had my first sexual experience. Now I have crabs.

"Though I am definitely a champion of helping new comers out and giving directions and beta, judgment should be used with respect to land-owner sensitive areas. "

Isn't it PUBLIC land!

"Having moved from SC to Western Mass, I've had to jump through the hurdles and leaps to discover just a few untouched bolts."

Congratulations, want a medal?

" It's a frustrating process, but protection of our resources should be of first concern. "

Forget about the resources. What makes you think that you, of all creatures, could upset mother nature; she would smite you in a second.

"High-traffic on private property (even with land-owner approval) can lead to many problems down the road with frustrated land-owners and locals, tired of the speeding climbers and road-side parking ruts."

High traffic my ass, if god didn't want us to drive to the spot why did he put a road there? And whats with the speeding climbers? Your so jacked up on Jolt cola that you can't drive slow? Oh yeah, road side ruts are only a problem when god doesn't make us a parking lot.

"When I'm talking resources, I'm not talking just of the "right to climb", which is not a right, but a PRIVILEGE."

I have a god given right to climb. You can punish me for climbing in an area where I do not belong, but you can not kill my will to climb those spots. Just because we make rules to tell people how to live, does not mean that people will agree to the rules, or even live by them.

"I remember some of the best things about Hunter's being the lack of a crowd and the occasional deer roaming through the rocks. I usually disliked the rampant shouting after finishing a project, and the subsequent land owner arrival and fierce argument."

Never in my life have I seen a land owner. I have seen other people, however everyone was there for the same thing; A good time. I'd hate to think that no-one could get along because of their personal beliefs.

"There is a place for the party crag (Rose Ledges) and the hidden crags with still some good routes (trad and sport, imagine that bolts in Western Mass). I hate showing up and seeing 30 people with 5 top-ropes all over the one route I wanted to lead that day."

Deal with it, there are people everywhere and if you can't get along or hang out with a stranger, then thats your problem. Stop complaining about other people and enjoy the company. After all, isn't that why we live in citys and towns?

"So in short, all I ask is use some prudence when announcing the sensitive climbing areas to the world."

Prudence:
adjective
acting with or showing care and thought for the future

Sensitive:
adjective
quick to detect or respond to slight changes, signals, or influences

So what you want everyone to do is show care and thought for the future of quick to detect, or respond to, slight changes in climbing areas when announcing them. What are you? Are you god? are you sure this is what he would want us to do? Love thy neighbor, but don't tell him about the sweet spot on the hill cause he might trash it. What you should be saying is; Pick up after your climbing buddies and show them how to have a good time without leaving a trace. It's not that they don't care or don't want to, its that no-one has taken the time to sit down and tell them.

So next time, Instead of suppressing other climbers, teach them, and the world will be "your" perfect place.

thespider

This is either a joke, or things are going to get hell ugly.

That said, I dont give a s--- either way. Im just a spectator here.

Things where? At hunters? Or on this site? I think it's a great idea to make a guidebook if there isn't one already. We've already established that it's public land, so I don't see where the problem lies. If nobody wrote guidebooks, because were afraid the areas would see more climbers, they'd be right about that. And they'd also be assholes.

This is either a joke, or things are going to get hell ugly.

That said, I dont give a s--- either way. Im just a spectator here.

orthopedic associates is a great outfit. they are building a new several million dollar facility in Lancaster. I was not aware of their presence in Reading. I'm with an orthopedic group not far from there.

What is your degree in?

At least you will have a lot of great climbing near by.

~Rob

You appear to be an idiot with poor social skills and few manners. While you're at it, you may want to look up the meaning of free climbing as distinct to aid climbing, free soloing, and rope soloing. Then make the appropriate adjustments to your profile.

I mean no offense by this, but you clearly sound like you are not that familiar with this particular issue, or the areas and it's users past history regarding topics like this.

the spider is anal.....

i bet rob would tell you about a fews route if you asked him nicely....

although he's already got the guide written...

did you even look for hunters on the route data base

I may be an idiot...

Mackavus, who showed you hunters? Did they tell you the history? Did they put you in charge of the history and protection of the area? Are you one of the "locals" who took it over in the 90's and changed all the names that the first ascenders and developers created during the 50's and 60's? Is seems to me that you don't understand the issue. There is plenty of public land there... blah, blah, blah... I'm a douchebag...

You are most certainly an idiot. I will explain why.


As a final word I will give you an opinion: This fight is not worth it. I actually can't even believe I am on the Internet typing away about this again. It's silly really. Just give up trying to spread the good word of sandstone around, and just climb there like you normally would.

Peace. :righton:

You are most certainly an idiot. I will explain why.


As a final word I will give you an opinion: This fight is not worth it. I actually can't even believe I am on the Internet typing away about this again. It's silly really. Just give up trying to spread the good word of sandstone around, and just climb there like you normally would.

Peace. :righton:

I want so many people that I have to get a ticket to climb a crag. I WANT TO WAIT IN LINE!

Not to mention, they are all on PUBLIC land.

Go to the GUNKS! $15 a day.


I seem to remember PMing you the topo with the property line. Like you said, the main area is in private land. The forest service survey (white paint) marks are indeed slightly downhill from incredarete!

Again, I said this on the first or second page. I'm glad you want to single-handedly destroy access to an area, to fuel your own personal god-given sandstone liberator rights.

And I don't think all climbers do said actions. Just climbers are people, and people are idiots (self included), so people (and thus climbers) will do stupid things.

I found the pants, but I'm stuck on the 3rd clue. I learned the secret hand-shake, but I think I have to go through initiation to climb at Hunter's. I guess I am a super greedy a-hole, anti-socialist, though I don't want to keep Hunter's to myself. I did build a wall, but its too lonely.

Oh and, here's some topos:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/listArea.php?AreaID=10165

Cleverly disguised in the routes section under another name. All the public land info you could ever want!!

What did you guys buy first? Did you want to buy something else first? What would you suggest to a first time climber on buying gear?

So always start with shoes and a chalk bag? What if you just want to do rappelling? Do you really need chalk and shoes? I would rather buy gloves at that point. I guess I want to know what to buy first to transcend bouldering and top roping with a little belaying.

Spider,

You want to start a war, write a guidebook to the area, discuss ethics, etc. but today you started this other thread http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/115050 which discredits everything you have said in this thread.


As a new climber, my advice is to tread lightly, learn as much as you can, climb at different areas. But don't start wars, post directions to controversial areas, etc.


This just shows how new you are to this sport.

When I started climbing, I had the same eagerness that you have. Open this local area, write a guidebook, etc. But pissing on local ethics, in not a good way to start into any sport. I encourage you to climb as much as you can, with many different people, in as many different areas as you can. After you have more experience in the sport, you will see how your point-of-view changes and how much local ethics mean to everybody. If you want people to take you seriously, then you are going to need some more experience under your belt.

So keep climbing and climb hard.

Peace

I want to do what I feel is right, sometimes you have to break it all down before you can build it up.

I have no issue with that I have posted, I'm not going to research it. If you have seen my posts, you would know I'm new at the terminology, style, and ethics of rock climbing. What I need is the explanation of the wrongs I have done, not just a blatant insult.

I don't give two shits about the "locals" and they can come and find me, I will tell them to their face.

Just for the record, I've followed the post from the beginning, so I've seen everything that is said.

When I spoke about your point of view changing over time, it's not just your point of view about Hunters, but rather your point of view about climbing all together. As you climb in different areas and with more people, you will realize how strong local ethics are in every area. From my experience, when a person travels to another crag, he/she has no problem upholding the local ethics set forth. As a climber matures (matures in the sport, not in life) and climbs in different areas, I think that his/her mindset changes from thinking that:
"The locals are elitists that do things only to serve themselves"
TO
"The locals do these things to protect the resource and secure it for future generations."

I think that you also get the mindset that if you are going to follow local ethics at other crags, then why not your personal crag. So my ethics didn't change, but my mindset did.

The local area that I used to climb at was on public land. I was so excited to find it my first year of climbing. I spent weeks cleaning the routes, making sure it was on public land, etc. However there were some issues. Parking was limited to a parking lot down the road and people had to walk along the road to access the rock. The parking lot was set up for boaters. So the more people I told about the area, the more the parking got filled up. Boaters complained that they had no place to park. People were parking along the road. People were not walking along the road responsibly. In the end, I decided not to post directions for the public because there was a chance that things would only get worse.

The key word is CHANCE. I was completely within my rights to advertise this place to the world. But I didn't want to take the chance that things would get worse and eventually it would be closed to climbing.

The outcome: The initial fascination wore off for a lot of the people, traffic slowed down. The parking situation was no longer a situation, and motorists weren't complaining about people walking on the road. The area is still open to climbing, still on public land, but you won't find any directions or even route descriptions online. If someone else posted directions, I wouldn't be angry, I wouldn't get into a fight about it, but I would try to explain why it might not be a good idea. Really I think that's what is going on here.

As for why I didn't write a guidebook to the different areas I wanted to is simply that I realized I was not qualified to write the guidebook. As a new climber my instincts were, "How hard could this be?" After an initial try I came to the conclusion that in order not to piss everyone off, I would have to invest a lot of time just to get the history, make sure the route names are accurate, etc. Also I know that Rob (roclimb) has a guidebook in the workings, and didn't want to step on his toes. (Still waiting on that guidebook by the way :wink: )

You seem really passionate about climbing and access. That's is great. There are a lot of areas across the US that need passionate, hard working people to help out. That might be a more worthwhile battle to get involved with.

I hope that nothing I said is taken as being hostile or discouraging, because it wasn't meant to be.

Peace

thespirder:

not good way to make friends and progress as a climber

And woohoo if you don't think its right, or American, its life. Like my daddy always said, "life ain't fair".

dude, you need some more logic courses.... not everyone can have the glass half full? sorry if i'm nit picking, but you need help... to many logiacl fallacies.. have fun climbing....

Ethics is a personal thing, and while I may feel that I'm being ethical you may not think that I am. That's fine. If I think your not ethical and you think you are, that's fine too. We can't all have the glass half full.