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mattyp
Nov 18, 2006, 9:48 AM
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You don't have to believe her, but you may believe the CDC:
http://www.cdc.gov/...mwrhtml/mm5233a4.htm
This article discusses MRSA among athletes, contact and non-contact sports, especially athletes who share equipment(climbing holds are shared and can be considered equipment). Also it is more common around sports where abrasions and cuts are common. When is the last time you scraped your knee on texture paint? had a flapper?
Whereas this isn't an epidemic, it is becoming more and more common to see MRSA outside of a hospital setting which used to be about the only place people would contract it.
Nothing worth freaking out about, but definitely take your hygiene a bit more seriously.
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lambone
Nov 18, 2006, 10:07 AM
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I read the cdc report.
what I am saying is that I don't belive climbing gyms carry as much risk as the sports described in their report. maybe I am wrong, who is to say...
the report talks about athletes sharing protective equipment, clothing, pads, headgear, etc...and coming in close contact with eachother (football players and wrestlers). do climbing holds pose the same potentail threat?
why would Indoor climbing holds be any different then Outdoor climbing holds? at least indoor climbing holds get washed sometimes. I've climbed at many outdoor sport caves that have never seen water or soap.
anyway it would be impossible for any climbing gym to do much in regards to prevention other then warn people and encourage people to wash their hands. with holds, ropes, rental shoes and chalk bags, harnesses, etc...how could you clean everything on a daily basis and remain in business. you couldn't.
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mattyp
Nov 18, 2006, 10:39 AM
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I think climbing holds are susceptible to this risk. Climbing holds are in an indoor environment. Outdoors the rock is exposed to UV, wind, and rain. Most climbing gyms I have been in are pretty climate controlled and see traffic most days of the week. I'd say the majority of crags typically see high traffic on the weekends and then not much use during the week, giving the elements time to erase any "residue". That is all just my assumption.
I'd say the best measure that a gym could reasonably take is to encourage good hand hygiene. It would be unrealistic to expect a gym to clean ALL equipment everyday. It is realistic to expect them to make an attempt at maintaining a clean gym. I've seen some pretty gross gyms.
The CDC report also mentioned fencers. Fencing is a non contact sport. Contact comes in all forms and touching something after another person does is contact.
All of this won't keep me out of the gym, but after contracting MRSA, I am definitely more concious of what I touch and how often I wash my hands.
(This post was edited by mattyp on Nov 18, 2006, 10:39 AM)
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littlefingers
Nov 18, 2006, 4:10 PM
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As for the outbreak in the fencing community, it is believed the bacteria contracted by shared use of equiptment- specifically a metal sensor that is worn under the clothes. Also, with one instance in football teams, it was found that the shared whirlpool had the bacteria and was considered to be a possible source of contamination— none of the players had colonizations in their nasal passages or throats.
Again, I don't think it would be possible to implement cleaning measures on equiptment in the gym. But I *do* think we can let people know about this. Noone has responded on this one...
This is a less costly approach than implementing cleaning measures, and certaonly seems to be the most intelligent approach. If there is a way to educate the gym community without causing loss of businesss, wouldn't this be best?
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littlefingers
Nov 18, 2006, 4:23 PM
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Matt,
As for your situation over there, I had some thoughts to share. Please try to get information from an ID doctor about what meds you will take and how you will treat your infections. Maybe your mom could get a good contact? I am concerned that you are on constant antibiotics. This can pose it's own set of risks with this situation. If you have the bacteria on you, and it is being supressed by the antibiotic you are takling (doxy), then it will work, but the bacteria could also develop a resistance to this antibiotic with time. When you get your next infection, you have one less antibiotic to turn to in your arsenal. It's important to be informed and intelligent with your use of antibiotics.
Another note- did anyone tell you how to dress the infections? It's important to keep a bandage on the infections that is sealed on all sides. This helps contain the bacteria, and will prevent you from infecting other people. When you have infections; If you wash with the hibiclens, use nasal antibiotic, and cover active infections, this will greatly reduce your risk of passing this to someone else. If you don't currently have an infection, I would be wary about the use of antibiotics at all.
hope you are getting all the info you need, and can get advice from an ID doctor somehow...
-meg
(This post was edited by littlefingers on Nov 18, 2006, 5:56 PM)
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mattyp
Nov 18, 2006, 6:37 PM
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The issue with constant antibiotics is the fact that we are required to take either Doxy or Mefloquine the entire time we are here due to the high risk of malaria. It's Mefloquine once a week or Doxy everyday. No choice there. It's been two months since I've had an infection and I am hoping that it won't come back.
As far as dressings go, the medic here if very knowledgable. Special Forces medics are about the best in the business. On top of that we have support from a team of physicians via phone back at a large base. We decided during my last infection to send me back to that base if another break out occurs in order to do all the testing required determine if this is in fact MRSA. We also have a PA that works with our team and he seems to think if may not have been MRSA. We won't be able to find out for sure until I get another infection, if that happens.
Thanks for the concern.
Matt
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cracklover
Nov 18, 2006, 7:40 PM
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Wow, Megan! Thanks for the heads up, and also I'm glad to hear you found out what it was, and are better now!
As for whether gyms are a likely source of contamination, I'd say that yes, they probably are, but perhaps less so than some other sports, depending on what you do at the gym.
Here's what I mean: you're probably most likely to get the infection if you have a piece of contaminated equipment touching your skin for a prolonged period of time, where it's likely your skin will be slightly abraded by the equipment, and also will get sweaty at the contact point. A rented harness could be a good example of this, at least if the user has low-riding hip-hugging pants and a shirt that's not tucked in under the waist belt of the harness, or short shorts (ack!)
However, a climbing hold, while it's probably covered with bacteria, is probably a poor carrier, because the skin on the hands is quite thick, and not easily susceptible to penetration (that's why you don't get poison ivy on the front of your hands), nor would you have prolonged sweaty rubbing contact with a climbing hold, like you would with an article of clothing, or the water in a whirlpool.
In short, I suspect it *could* be contracted that way, but I highly doubt that you put anyone at the gym at a high risk of infection while you had it, unless you rented a harness or shoes. Just my opinion, but I hope it sets your mind at ease a little!
Again, thanks for the heads up! It was a good idea anyway, with cold and flu season coming, but I'll definitely be washing my hands more at the gym now!
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Nov 18, 2006, 7:42 PM)
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jnut
Nov 18, 2006, 8:30 PM
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cracklover:
not sure about this logic, since most every common ailment from a cold to CA-MRSA is most easily transmitted by hand to hand contact. the bacteria on the hold gets on your hand or shoe as you climb, you come down and wipe sweat off your neck, high five your buddy, go to the bathroom, pick your nose, go to grab a slice of pizza...
seems that having it on your hands would be the most risky place on your body to have the bacteria than almost anywhere else!
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littlefingers
Nov 19, 2006, 7:06 AM
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Gabe,
Your reasoning is a little misinformed- if you're ever up to chatting about this sometime, let me know.
I think climbing holds could be effective carriers of bacteria- as for how thick the skin on your hands is, is doesn't matter. I never got infections on my hands, but on other places on my body. You can pick the bacteria up on your hands, and then touch other places of your body, and the bacteria settles and lives there. Once it's there, it's very hard to get rid of. It hangs out and lives on you, and then once in a while creeps into microscopic openings in your skin and colonizes there, causing the spider-bite infections.
As for the risk at the gym-- it seems proabable due to mine, and the other infected climber's personal habits, that our most likely source of infection for us was the gym-- and even if it wasn't from there, the gym was certainly exposed to CA-MRSA from us. It's a very good idea that everyone who climbs there knows what this stuff is.
Kind of like when a kid gets lice at school- a note gets sent home to the parents, and everyone gets a lice check- right? Except this one could be a little more serious.
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htotsu
Nov 25, 2006, 11:08 AM
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lambone wrote: what I am saying is that I don't belive climbing gyms carry as much risk as the sports described in their report. maybe I am wrong, who is to say... ... why would Indoor climbing holds be any different then Outdoor climbing holds? at least indoor climbing holds get washed sometimes. I've climbed at many outdoor sport caves that have never seen water or soap. anyway it would be impossible for any climbing gym to do much in regards to prevention other then warn people and encourage people to wash their hands. with holds, ropes, rental shoes and chalk bags, harnesses, etc...how could you clean everything on a daily basis and remain in business. you couldn't.
Lambone, respectfully, I encourage you to broaden your perspective a bit. We get that you are a gym owner and prefer not to believe that your gym could be part of the problem, and we get that there would be dollar signs and time involved in changing your practices to involve additional cleaning. But really - you seem almost defensive through this thread. Using the fact that those outdoor holds aren't cleaned often as a defense against cleaning indoor holds more is like saying, "Well, Peter's mom doesn't make HIM wash his hands before dinner! Why should I have to, ma?" Ma might point out that you ought to be concerned about your hands, not Peter's.
From the report:
In reply to: Although the investigations described in this report did not determine the roots of MRSA transmission definitively, three factors might have contributed to transmission in these outbreaks. First, competitive sports participants might develop abrasions and other skin trauma, which could facilitate entry of pathogens. Even in sports with less direct contact, protective clothing can be hot and might chafe skin, resulting in abrasions and lacerations. Fencers reported developing skin rashes frequently under protective clothing. Second, some sports for which MRSA infections have been reported involve frequent physical contact among players (e.g., football and wrestling). S. aureus and other skin flora can be transmitted easily from person to person with direct contact. Third, sports such as fencing have limited skin-to-skin contact but require multiple pieces of protective clothing and equipment, which often might be shared. The use of shared equipment or other personal items that are not cleaned or laundered between users could be a vehicle for S. aureus transmission.
And regardless of whether this particular ailment is likely to be passed from person to person in a climbing gym, aren't there enough other ones to make it a good idea ANYWAY to post signs asking people to wash their hands before and after? And isn't a good idea ANYWAY for you to reflect every now and then on what gyms can do better to keep their facilities clean?
I'm sure safety is important to you in every other regard, or at least I hope so. Yet your first reaction on this matter is to focus on who other than the gym is to blame, and what you cannot do. Yes you have to consider the viability of your business. But sheesh - rather than focus on what is "impossible" for a gym owner, couldja take the time to think about what IS possible?
(editing to add thanks to the OP for the heads up, and to the others who have shared their stories about this - I'd definitely never heard of it before)
(This post was edited by htotsu on Nov 25, 2006, 11:11 AM)
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littlefingers
Nov 27, 2006, 7:52 PM
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Thanks htotsu-
I would again like to emphsize how important education is on this one. In terms of hygene in indoor climbing facilities, I just don't think it can be much improved on. My gym is visited by 500 people everyday, and there is no way holds can be cleaned between use. We can, however, take steps to educate our community so that those that are infected can take proper precautions so they don't spread this to others.
This is not something you ever get rid of, is extremely impactful on everyday life, and can lead to severe complications. For every person who has told me that CA-MRSA is not a big deal, I know it is because they do not know enough about it.
Hopefully word of mouth will help on this one, and we can protect our facilites by educating each other. I sure do wish climbing facilities would help out on this one, especially mine considering the circumstances.
(This post was edited by littlefingers on Nov 27, 2006, 7:53 PM)
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md3
Nov 27, 2006, 8:25 PM
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Could you sauna your gyms after hours?
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jh_angel
Nov 27, 2006, 8:49 PM
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I noticed that you say in your profile that your from Boston and since I work in one of the gyms in the area I was wondering which gym it is you keep mentioning?
-Josh
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littlefingers
Nov 27, 2006, 9:44 PM
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Sorry Josh, not your gym but one you are closely allied with. I don't want to create tensions by targeting this gym specifically. I know the owner of my gym, and have made him aware of my circumstances. It is understandable he does not want affiliation with what happened to me, it is a hard pill to swallow. I certainly don't want to create ill feelings by attacking anyone. I do feel a need to get word out on this one- to protect others and myself. It's a situation we should all be aware of if we climb indoors.
We won't ever know if my gym was the source of my infection-- I only know that it is a likely possibility. And I also know that I put others at risk by climbing there with infections.
i have concerns about people in this gym being exposed to CA-MRSA knowing that so few people know what this is. Considering my life has been significantly altered by this, I've felt the need to share my story. It concerns me that what happened to me could happen to anyone else, and kids, especially. I know it's a hard blow for you as a gym owner and manager, and a tough pill to swallow. i would hope we could all come to an understanding, and hope that noone feels attacked here. What happened to me is very real, and brings up some real concerns. Please pm me if you've got any questions.
(This post was edited by littlefingers on Nov 27, 2006, 10:03 PM)
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htotsu
Jan 4, 2007, 11:56 AM
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lambone wrote: the report talks about athletes sharing protective equipment, clothing, pads, headgear, etc...and coming in close contact with eachother (football players and wrestlers). do climbing holds pose the same potentail threat?
I just saw this article about gyms, and I remembered this thread. Thought I'd post the link here just so people might resolve to wash their freakin hands more frequently in the new year! http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/...ellYou.aspx?GT1=8998
If a medicine ball can hold MRSA, a climbing hold sure can.
In reply to: In swabs of medicine balls, for example, Tierno found samples of community-acquired MRSA, a strain of staph resistant to some antibiotics. " |
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littlefingers
Jan 11, 2007, 10:26 PM
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There has been a slew of recent articles written about gyms and spreading Ca-Mrsa. When I was searching on this topic earlier in the Spring, it was hard to find news on this subject, now when you google the subject, there are pages of articles.
I will post a few;
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0425_060425_staph.html
http://www3.whdh.com/features/articles/specialreport/DBM1269/
http://www.nbc4.tv/station/4510495/detail.html
just google staph and gyms, and there will be many, many more. A recent statistic says 25 percent of Ca-MRsa cases lead to hospitalization. This is a serious issue!!
I still wonder how other climbers would want their gyms to respond to this issue? Mine hasn't taken any proactive stance what-so-ever. In fact, the owner of my gym seems to be under the impression that I must have been unhealthy to have contracted this in the first place. I feel he thinks I have been through trauma and am over-reacting.
I'm trying to be diplomatic, but I am finding the lack of pro-activeness in my gyms response to this extremely aggrevating. Am I the only one to feel this way? If you climbed at a gym where someone else was diagnosed with this, how would you want your gym to respond?
(This post was edited by littlefingers on Jan 11, 2007, 10:29 PM)
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dingus
Jan 11, 2007, 10:29 PM
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mturner wrote: And I'll add, to any gyms that don't at least occasionally clean their holds with acid or anti-bacterial soap, shame on you!
I think anti-bacterial soap will only make it worse. That shit needs to be tightly regulated and pretty much outlawed in consumer products like soap.
DMT
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littlefingers
Jan 12, 2007, 1:38 PM
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Hi Dingus,
I agree with you about not using antibacterial soap. It's important to explain why though-- the reason why CA-MRSA exists at all is because of over use of antibiotics, (mostly in western medicine). When bacteria is exposed to antibiotics over a period of time (and we are just talking a few years) it can, and will, develop a resistance to that antibiotic. Anti-bacterial soap contributes towards this problem.
Washing your hands with a good soap (non-antibacterial) will be effective in protecting yourself from any germs and stray bacteria you pick up at the gym.
Noone has replied yet about how they would want their gyms to respond-- it appears to be nothing? Does anyone think that having a pro-active stance towards education is important-- mainly so when people do get this they know and can treat it without spreading this to others? (or, at least in places that have been exposed to CA-MRSA?)
I'm thinking that education and awareness is our best defense here... There is a lawsuit being filed against a prison because they failed to educate their inmates about the disease when there was a breakout. This proposes interesting ethical questions.
I feel strongly that gyms should at the very least make an effort to understand what CA-MRSA is. Despite my attempts to educate my facility about this, I still feel that they are misinformed and unwilling to seek out information from reliable sources I have offered at the Center for Disease Control. I understand that this may scare them.
In their defense, there have not been a series of reported cases of CA-MRSA in our facility. However, I also know that most cases can be minor skin infections, and often over-looked. It took me so long to get a proper diagnosis-- how many others can go through this same thing?
Any thought on this would be greatly appreciated. I am very curious to know how climbers who are not directly effected by this feel about the issue.
thanks.
megIn reply to:
(This post was edited by littlefingers on Jan 12, 2007, 1:46 PM)
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pro_alien
Jan 12, 2007, 4:06 PM
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The only semi practical way to disinfect a whole gym would be to irradiate the place with strong UV light during the night. Don't know whether that would work on CA-MRSA... and it doesn't sound practical or economical.
Holds get cleaned when routes are taken down and replaced. My local gym uses a power washer (cold water but gonzo pressure), other places a commercial dishwasher (maybe hot enough ?).
Pascal
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cchildre
Jan 12, 2007, 4:40 PM
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Sanitary conditions or not. One big problem creeping along behind this debate is the lurking ineffectivness of antibotics these days. All too often they are the default remedy for most illnessess. I try to aviod them as often as possible, but then I am fairly healthy, rarely ill. I just know a big concern among the medical community is that bacteria are adapting and becoming resistant to the antibiotics so often prescribed. Not that it is a factor in this particular debate exactly, but it is a concern that I hold. Any thoughts or rebukes are welcome.
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littlefingers
Jan 12, 2007, 4:48 PM
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The first solution people seem to think abut is disinfecting the facility, when there are really much more effective and realistic solutions. These are promoting CA-MRSA awareness and promoting simple good hygiene in their facilities. Why do I feel that people overlook the obvious here?
There is very little expense involved in promoting awareness and trying to promote better hygine-- would it be too much to ask for facilities to be pro-active in these areas? Especially if there were instances of CA-MRSA in their facilities?
Is it because of fear of lost business that this issue is not addressed?
I think anyone who is educated about this agrees CA-MRSA is an issue, and education and hygiene are both proven, effective solutions. These are certainly areas that can be addressed by facilities, even those with no funds that can be put into these areas. Posters, or offering pamplets with information about what CA-mrsa is, could be effective steps towards education.
I also would be comforted to know that my facility was open and interested in learning about what CA-MRSA is. Right now, I don't feel this is the case.
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littlefingers
Jan 12, 2007, 4:57 PM
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cchildre--
Actually, Ca-MRSA is a direct result of antibiotic over-use. If bacteria is exposed to an antibiotic over a period of time (we're talking about a year, can be more and less) it *will* become resistant to it. Bacteria mutates very rapidly, and we (practicers of western medicine) have literally developed a few new strains of bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics by over using them. Resistant bacteria has been around ever since antibiotics have been around (1960's), and was mostly seen in hospitals. It almost exclusively affected only those who were already sick and had lowered immune systems.
Unfortunately, now new strains have emerged in the community that effect completely healthy people. This is CA-MRSA.
(This post was edited by littlefingers on Jan 12, 2007, 4:58 PM)
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drrock
Jan 12, 2007, 5:25 PM
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With all due respect, disinfecting a gym of Staph Aureus would be like disinfecting your colon. Won't and can't happen (OK- except in highly unusual circumstances). Likewise, washing your hands, while a good idea to periodically do, won't get rid of Staph. Staph lives everywhere on our bodies and at best washing your hands will very temporarily reduce the number of bugs (until you wipe your nose or face that is). Getting rid of staph is impossible. If you're unlucky enough to have MRSA-- or worse, VISA or VRSA (Vanco Intermediate or Resistant Staph), you can be "decontaminated" but it could come back. It's good to have a thread about this, but realistically, asking the gym to decontaminate their holds regularly to make sure is no Staph around is pretty silly. Don't climb if you get a flapper or a cut. Don't climb if you have a pustule or open wound.
Sorry the OP had a rough go, but this thread is a little alarmist regarding the climbing gym as a vector. I do think that overall as a societal problem that some alarm is warranted-- don't get me wrong, MRSA/VRSA is some scary shit-- but I don't stay up nights worrying about catching it at the climbing gym.
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bent_gate
Jan 12, 2007, 5:25 PM
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Just do what they do to kill Anthrax. Get a bunch of tanks of Chlorine Dioxide gas. Make sure the gym is pretty airtight. And after you lock up every night, gas the place with Chlorine Dioxide. But make sure no one is left behind in the locker room first.
Hey, it worked for the Brentwood Postal Facility...
http://www.epa.gov/...dioxidefactsheet.htm
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