|
cracklover
Feb 13, 2007, 3:19 PM
Post #101 of 256
(7542 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
By the way, Gail, yours would be a perfect scenario for this to happen, since the belayer might well be taking in just as you were dropping off.
Cheers,
GO
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Feb 13, 2007, 6:25 PM
Post #102 of 256
(7476 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
tisar wrote: cracklover wrote: [..] Here's the specific method, and the specific fault: Palm up, pinch and slide, where the non-brake hand pinches both ropes. [..] This is exactly what I had in mind when I asked. I've seen this method once or twice done by American climbers (never seen a European belay palm up with an ATC and, to be honest, am glad about that). I always suspected it to be less-than-perfect to dangerous in the very moment of "slide". That said, I'm sure there are people out there who are capable of belaying palm up perfectly safe. It just adds another failure mode to the game since it doesn't support the locked off position as palm down does. - Daniel
i saw some kids using this method last night at the gym, i was on my way over to correct them when the leader came off at the crux and hit the ground. it was a short fall- maybe 8-10' or so and the leader wasn't hurt, but everyone just assumed the reason he hit the ground was because he was heavier than his belayer (which wasnt true- there was maybe 10lbs in difference, 15 at the most).
i corrected them, they ignored me...what are you going to do?
anyway, get better soon, gail!
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Feb 13, 2007, 6:31 PM
Post #103 of 256
(7473 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
granite_grrl wrote: Reading through this thread I thought of a couple of things. First, people are blaming the belayer, totally her fault obviously. Well, maybe not, she had caught Gail's falls before, who's to say that your own belayer won't flake out and drop you next time. Pick with care, but things happen when you least expect it. And I suspect that her belayer deserves less crap than what every one is giving her.
Less crap? Perhaps--and I'm sure she feels terrible about what happened. Still, this accident can be attributed 100% to a terrible and preventable fuck-up on the belayer's part. Trying to sugar coat or dance around that fact is quite nonsensical and serves no useful purpose.
granite_grrl wrote: It also seems that people are critical about Gail taking practice falls. Its not that strange a practice and she shouldn't be chastised for choosing to take a fall.
Except, of course, that she wouldn't have the broken back and all....
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 13, 2007, 6:45 PM
Post #104 of 256
(7452 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2002
Posts: 2824
|
curt wrote: Except, of course, that she wouldn't have the broken back and all....
Curt, I am not sure that this is true. I was 1 foot above my last bolt, the horn on that particular climb is really out of the way. No one slings the horn on that climb when they lead it. Whether I take the victory whip or not, a belayer should always catch the climber.
Irrespective of my training drills/practices, I am doing really well, I am in minimal pain (my ribs hurt more than my back) and will be back training soonest.
Seriously the most important lessons I learned were:
1) It can happen to anyone (even if you are the world's greatest climber, your belayer can fail you)
2) Cull the herd; only let those that you know, trust and have the experience to put you on belay.
Thank you all (well, most of you) for you kind words of encouragement and well wishes.
Gail
(This post was edited by gblauer on Feb 13, 2007, 6:46 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 13, 2007, 6:47 PM
Post #105 of 256
(7446 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
OK... Hold the phone here!
Umm, Disclaimer: This is a Rant, this is not to assign blame to Belayer and climber involved here... just some points. uuhh, Well contributing factor apply here I guess, but other stuff is the in gerneral catigory. Oh, and have fun reading if you're ADD or ADHD...
I've been thinking about this a bit... oh, and some of my thoughs on them in general... might not all aply to this accident, but there seems to be a trand of climbers who are still on belay CRATERING into the ground.
Two main contributing fators (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):
1) Improper use of standardized terminology. And many on here seem to think that there are different meanings to the same term depending on whether you are sport climbing, trad climbing, whatever climbing. THERE IS NOT. CLIMBING COMMANDS AND FOR ALL CLIMBING
-examples of terms:
-On Belay
-Belay On
-Climbing
-Climb On
-Watch ME
-Tension or Take
-Got, or Got you
-Falling
-Rock, Ice...........Take, Got, Lower or Ready to Lower, Lowering
or,
-Secure <-- Does not mean Off Belay!
-Off Belay
-Belay Off
-That's Me
-On Belay/Belay On
-Climbing
-Climb On
-Say Again or Repeat <----- Folks, this is what you say when you are unsure
A few things here. I have listed them in the order I have to try and outline a climb itself, both Multi pitch and single pitch if you look at it. Some things I prefer such as 'Lower' over 'Ready to Lower' as you can more easily tell what they are saying by the syllables. There are important things to note... Secure should not be a replacement for off belay, neither should Safe, or the appalling use of "OK". Later time I checked Secure saound and reads NOTHING like Off Belay. And WTF, what the bloody sheep, and what in DOG's green Earth does OK mean as far as climding is concerned? I have seen to many accidents and near accidents due to the poor use of terminology <----- read this as POOR COMMUNICATION! This applies to both the Gym and outdoor climbing! The same terms you use for Trad ARE THE SAME YOU USE FOR SPORT! There are many many more terms these are simple what I would consider the 15 or so off the top of my head essentials. Learn them! Learn to Communicate in a manner that leaves no room for doubt as to what was said/asked.
I've climbed with People from all over the world... France, Germany, Switzerland, Britt's, Bask, Yank's, Brazilians, Japan, Spain, Italy, Finland, and a few others I can’t think of right now... With the use of standardized terms and the understanding of what they mean I have never had a problem climbing with experienced climbers regardless of language barriers to the extent of I can hardly pronounce your name and can't have a casual conversation beyond improvised sign language. There have been no Holy Mother of Fuck moments with experienced climbers due to KNOWING WHAT TERMS SUCH AS THE ABOVE MEAN!
2) Inattention to the belaying/Improper belaying
People! Learn to belay not just hold the rope! Don't get slack or laxadaisy about it! Your friend on the other end is TRUSTING you. In the past 13 years or so I have seen changes to belaying standards. Changes such as instead of holding your break hand higher while sliding it back down the rope, to holding it below the level of the belay device while you slide it up to the device... this puts your break hand in a locked off position more often than not. I have seen auto-laziness... oh sorry I mean auto-locking devices break onto the market and become very common. (Mal, your cinch rocks, but I'm just not a fan of auto-laziness belay devices... but your cinch does Rock) The biggest problem with these devices is they have encouraged lazy belaying. There are proper and Improper ways to use these folks!
Now, ATC's and the like... every beginner should learn on these! Really. Everyone should not only learn to catch falls, lower, .... they should never stop anticipation the potential for a fall. I'm around 200lbs and have had a 110lbs partner catch me on some 30+ footers in my sport climbing days and have never been dropped is such a case. Been dropped be quite a few GriGri users while being lowered though.
On top of seeing some improvement to the suggested how to belay, I have seen some VERY VERY scary trends in how people are teaching to belay at gyms. Hand over have to take in slack comes to mind…. Golden rule folks, NEVER TAKE YOU BREAK HAND OFF THE ROPE….. The Golden of the Golden rule: DON’T TEACH A NOOB TO TAKE THEIR BREAK HAND OFF THE ROPE! Another would be Palm up instead of palm down with respect to the break hand… people you’re not hip belaying here! Get those palms down, you can hold much greater forces that way.
The Bottom line is this:
Learn to belay PROPERLY, and don’t forget.
Never stop anticipating the potential for a fall! NEVER!
Always be ready
Always be ready
ALWAYS BE READY for the unexpected
Never take your break hand off the Rope
NEVER THAKE YOUR BREAK HAND OFF THE ROPE!
Ok, End Rant, Discuss.
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 13, 2007, 6:50 PM
Post #106 of 256
(7441 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
Gail, I'm glad to hear you are doing ok, and are taking this rather well. I was lucky to learn the same trust issues without getting injured, just dropped. I wish you a speedy recovery.
-Brenden
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Feb 13, 2007, 6:50 PM
Post #107 of 256
(7440 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 15084
|
curt wrote: granite_grrl wrote: Reading through this thread I thought of a couple of things. First, people are blaming the belayer, totally her fault obviously. Well, maybe not, she had caught Gail's falls before, who's to say that your own belayer won't flake out and drop you next time. Pick with care, but things happen when you least expect it. And I suspect that her belayer deserves less crap than what every one is giving her. Less crap? Perhaps--and I'm sure she feels terrible about what happened. Still, this accident can be attributed 100% to a terrible and preventable fuck-up on the belayer's part. Trying to sugar coat or dance around that fact is quite nonsensical and serves no useful purpose.
My problem is that people are probobly thinking that their belayer will never drop them. She did something wrong that allowed Gail to be dropped, I just don't want people to sit there and think that their belayers will never do anything wrong like that.
In reply to: granite_grrl wrote: It also seems that people are critical about Gail taking practice falls. Its not that strange a practice and she shouldn't be chastised for choosing to take a fall. Except, of course, that she wouldn't have the broken back and all.... Curt
Maybe we should all just stop climbing completley. Maybe next time I hear of a boulderer who fell on their pad wrong a twisted an ankle I should tell them they shouldn't have been bouldering in the first place, or that they should never boulder above 3 feet.
I guess I feel people are trying to find reasons why something like this will never happen to them (they have better belayers, never take falls, etc). It can. If you're willing to accept that then keep on climbing, if you can't then maybe you shouldn't be climbing. Life is fragile, but I still think we should enjoy it.
I will also admit that accidents that happen that should never have happened are a touchy subject for me.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Feb 13, 2007, 7:06 PM
Post #108 of 256
(7424 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
granite_grrl wrote: ...I guess I feel people are trying to find reasons why something like this will never happen to them (they have better belayers, never take falls, etc). It can. If you're willing to accept that then keep on climbing, if you can't then maybe you shouldn't be climbing. Life is fragile, but I still think we should enjoy it. I will also admit that accidents that happen that should never have happened are a touchy subject for me.
I recall reading about your own accident--and I hope you are also feeling better these days.
I guess the problem I'm having here is with the use of the term "accident" as it has been applied here. I mean, of course it was an "accident" in the sense that dropping the climber was not an intentional act of the belayer. However, it is equally undeniable that either belayer negligence or incompetence (or both) ultimately led to this unfortunate outcome.
You make it sound as though a belay is some sort of objective danger, like avalanches, rockfall or other similar risks that are beyond our control as climbers--and that simply isn't the case. A good belayer would never make the mistake that happened in this case--period.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
tomcat
Feb 13, 2007, 7:08 PM
Post #109 of 256
(7419 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 325
|
Ummmm,"Victory Whip" on a 5.7? Rock Warriors Way to lead 5.7? I can't think of a single 5.7 I'd just jump off. 15 minutes a session falling?How many miles is that?I think you got hurt shooting a mouse with an elephant gun,sorry.
If you are leading 5.7's in a gym,you should not be practicing falling.
Palms up,palms down?You bend the f**king thing back around and lock it off.
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 13, 2007, 7:17 PM
Post #110 of 256
(7402 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2002
Posts: 2824
|
tomcat wrote: Ummmm,"Victory Whip" on a 5.7? Rock Warriors Way to lead 5.7? I can't think of a single 5.7 I'd just jump off. 15 minutes a session falling?How many miles is that?I think you got hurt shooting a mouse with an elephant gun,sorry. .
I regularly lead 10s/11s in my gym.
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Feb 13, 2007, 7:21 PM
Post #111 of 256
(7398 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 2043
|
jakedatc wrote: In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. your humble opinion is what makes for lazy ass belayers who think they don't have to lock off every time and are ready for a fall at any time. .
Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader".
I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me.
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 13, 2007, 7:30 PM
Post #112 of 256
(7384 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
shimanilami wrote: jakedatc wrote: In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. your humble opinion is what makes for lazy ass belayers who think they don't have to lock off every time and are ready for a fall at any time. . Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader". I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me.
^ this is why I never never never teach noob's with anything but an ATC (or the like). If I'm teaching you to climb, you don't learn the GriGri till you damn well a good belayer, and by that point you'll yealize the risk of that type of device (user error) and KNOW that there is a Correct and Incorrect way to you said device.
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Feb 13, 2007, 7:37 PM
Post #113 of 256
(7366 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 2043
|
^^^ If you are suggesting that I'm a nOOb, then you are sorely mistaken.
Following your logic, why would start with "advanced" technology of an ATC? Why not start with a hip belay, if you really want to teach the fundamentals of belaying?
And you didn't answer my question.
|
|
|
|
|
artm
Feb 13, 2007, 7:38 PM
Post #114 of 256
(7364 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 22, 2001
Posts: 17990
|
jt512 wrote: I actually disagree philosophically with much of what holdplease2 has posted in this thread. Way too trad, Kate! Jay
holdplease2 wrote: She's also the one who taught me that you trust your #1 parachute (your climbing ability and skillz on the rock) and only use your backup chute (your belayer or trusting your life to yarding on pro) if all else fails.
But then again that may be why I've taken so many whippers (or maybe I just suck at climbing).
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Feb 13, 2007, 7:42 PM
Post #115 of 256
(7358 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
shimanilami wrote: Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader".
What if the rope was threaded backwards through the gri-gri? Are you so certain of your opinion in that scenario?
shimanilami wrote: I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me.
If the question is this:
"Which belay device is more likely to catch a falling climber when the belayer's hands are not on the belay device, the ATC or the gri-gri?"
...then the gri-gri wins--assuming, of course, that the gri-gri was not threaded backwards as in my comment above.
However, if the question is:
"Which is the more foolproof belay device, the ATC or the gri-gri?"
...then the answer is much less clear--because there are certainly multiple ways to drop a climber while belaying with a gri-gri, including threading the rope the wrong way through it, holding the lever in the "open" position when a climber falls, etc.
If you are focusing on the belay device here, you are totally missing one of the most important lessons to be learned from this thread.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 13, 2007, 7:43 PM
Post #116 of 256
(7355 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
shimanilami wrote: ^^^ If you are suggesting that I'm a nOOb, then you are sorely mistaken. Following your logic, why would start with "advanced" technology of an ATC? Why not start with a hip belay, if you really want to teach the fundamentals of belaying? And you didn't answer my question.
No, not sugesting you're a noob or anything. Sorry you thought that... didn't even think it could be taken that way.
Just saying EVERYONGE should lean the dynemics, the ins and outs and the PROPER way to belay and pay attention belaying, and understant the short-comings of Auto-lazyness... I mean auto-locking belay devices.
And why not stat with a hip belay.... anyone who does any alpine SHOULD know how to do one and where they are and are not appropiet! But, bottom line, Learn to belay right and ALWAY expect that a fall can happen at anypoint.
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Feb 13, 2007, 7:45 PM
Post #117 of 256
(7348 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 15084
|
curt wrote: granite_grrl wrote: ...I guess I feel people are trying to find reasons why something like this will never happen to them (they have better belayers, never take falls, etc). It can. If you're willing to accept that then keep on climbing, if you can't then maybe you shouldn't be climbing. Life is fragile, but I still think we should enjoy it. I will also admit that accidents that happen that should never have happened are a touchy subject for me. I recall reading about your own accident--and I hope you are also feeling better these days. I guess the problem I'm having here is with the use of the term "accident" as it has been applied here. I mean, of course it was an "accident" in the sense that dropping the climber was not an intentional act of the belayer. However, it is equally undeniable that either belayer negligence or incompetence (or both) ultimately led to this unfortunate outcome. You make it sound as though a belay is some sort of objective danger, like avalanches, rockfall or other similar risks that are beyond our control as climbers--and that simply isn't the case. A good belayer would never make the mistake that happened in this case--period. Curt
I think what I really want is people to accept the dangers in this sport, take responsability. I have stopped thinking in terms of never, because I should never have fallen off a 5.5 section of a climb.
It is very very very unlikely that a good belayer will drop you. People should minamize the risk of climbing when ever possible, but that doesn't always happen. Sometimes we choose a belayer that we've only climbed with a few times before (even if they caught our falls in the past). Sometimes we run it out on easy ground over ledges while leading. Climbers take these small risks all the time.
And then, when you least expect it........WAM!!!
Thank you for your concern Curt, I am doing much much better, and I have even started climbing again in the last month. Sorry that I seem to be making it my personal crusaide to try to convince other climbers that accidents are always possible, but I'm sure you can understand that it is a personal subject.
|
|
|
|
|
artm
Feb 13, 2007, 7:46 PM
Post #118 of 256
(7344 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 22, 2001
Posts: 17990
|
shimanilami wrote: jakedatc wrote: In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. your humble opinion is what makes for lazy ass belayers who think they don't have to lock off every time and are ready for a fall at any time. . Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader". I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me.
(This post was edited by artm on Feb 13, 2007, 8:01 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Feb 13, 2007, 7:50 PM
Post #119 of 256
(7332 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
artm wrote: shimanilami wrote: jakedatc wrote: In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. your humble opinion is what makes for lazy ass belayers who think they don't have to lock off every time and are ready for a fall at any time. . Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader". I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me. It Depends. A Gri-Gri in the hands of someone who's been taught advanced belaying skills with the device in question is safer. However an untrained beginner who thinks the Gri-Gri will automatically lock off every time is an accident waiting to happen. There have been many instances where people have been dropped by belayers using Gri-Gri's. With certain skinny ropes the device in question still needs the belayers hand on the brake side of the rope.
With ANY rope, the belayers hand should be on the brake side of the rope when using a Grigri. Taking your brake hand off is improper use of the device.
People are saying that the Grigri makes people lazy b/c they learn they don't have to lock-off. This is improper use of the device. The autolock is a backup, you still need to have your brake hand on, and you still need to lock off. Don't blame the device if people cannot use it right. Thats why the Grigri is not a beginner tool. You still need to know how to belay, PLUS there are added complexities.
|
|
|
|
|
artm
Feb 13, 2007, 7:52 PM
Post #120 of 256
(7328 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 22, 2001
Posts: 17990
|
curt wrote: shimanilami wrote: Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader". What if the rope was threaded backwards through the gri-gri? Are you so certain of your opinion in that scenario? shimanilami wrote: I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me. If the question is this: "Which belay device is more likely to catch a falling climber when the belayer's hands are not on the belay device, the ATC or the gri-gri?" ...then the gri-gri wins--assuming, of course, that the gri-gri was not threaded backwards as in my comment above. However, if the question is: "Which is the more foolproof belay device, the ATC or the gri-gri?" ...then the answer is much less clear--because there are certainly multiple ways to drop a climber while belaying with a gri-gri, including threading the rope the wrong way through it, holding the lever in the "open" position when a climber falls, etc. If you are focusing on the belay device here, you are totally missing one of the most important lessons to be learned from this thread. Curt
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Feb 13, 2007, 7:53 PM
Post #121 of 256
(7325 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 2043
|
So far, I have been able to glean the following risk scenarios with a Gri-Gri
a. Belayer threads rope backwards
b. Belayer has lever open when leader falls
c. Belayer can't feed rope out fast enough
In other words, if the belayer is a fucking 'tard ...
I will not dispute that proper technique is the key to belaying safely, but I'll offer that there is also a better "mouse trap" than an ATC or hip belay.
And if I'm on the sharp end of the rope, I want my belayer to have both.
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Feb 13, 2007, 7:53 PM
Post #122 of 256
(7325 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
shimanilami wrote: I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me.
I have personally been full-on dropped by belayers using a gri-gri. Three times. Each time in a gym, with a (fortunately) padded floor. Each time, it was operator error. Only once did I not hit the floor - and that guy jammed his hand into the gri-gri to make it stop (talk about doing what it took). Each time, the belayer opened the gate with the lever before I sat back into the harness; my weight ripped the rope from their hand, and they froze with the gate still open. Even the guy who sacrificed his skin could have just let go of the gate, and it "should" have caught me.
I have never, ever been dropped by anyone using an ATC, even on lead falls.
So, is an ATC/tube device safer than a gri-gri? Yes... and no.
The ATC makes it very, very clear that it is truly the belayer who is responsible for everything. It's not going to lock the rope, it's not going to back up bad technique... there's no net. Someone learning to belay with an ATC is more cognizant of the fact that they are "it". The ATC is also more flexible than a gri-gri (you can belay with two ropes, and rappel with two ropes), and obviously lighter. That said, there are also obvious shortcomings - no safety back-up, must belay off the harness, no direct belay off the anchor.
The Gri-gri is an awesome tool - in the hands of someone who knows how to use it properly and safely. However, in the hands of a beginner, it's generally found to be too complicated. Too many "instructors" tout the fact that a gri-gri is an "auto-locking device", or is "idiot-proof", and will catch the climber in a fall even if the belayer screws up - and that's very, dangerously inaccurate. Also, instructors teach that one has to use the gate to slow down the climber when they're being lowered off, and don't focus on the fact that the belayer ABSOLUTELY MUST CONTROL THE DESCENT WITH THEIR BRAKE HAND. A belayer should be able to control the lowering-off with the gate wide open. Lastly, the gri-gri enables sloppy belaying, because EVERYONE knows that the gri-gri is fool-proof and will catch the climber in case of a fall. Hand off the brake line? It's okay, with a gri-gri. Talk to your friend about the hottie you shagged last night? It's okay, you're using a gri-gri. Etc, ad nauseum. That said, there are times when a gri-gri is a huge boon - when someone is hang-dogging (*ahem* sorry, working) a route and hanging in their harness, when one has to haul baggage/their second up, when one is doing rescue work, etc.
Sounds to me like both pieces of equipment are useful in their range, in the hands of someone who can use them. Maybe it's not the belay device, but the user.
T
|
|
|
|
|
artm
Feb 13, 2007, 7:58 PM
Post #123 of 256
(7317 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 22, 2001
Posts: 17990
|
redpoint73 wrote: artm wrote: shimanilami wrote: jakedatc wrote: In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. your humble opinion is what makes for lazy ass belayers who think they don't have to lock off every time and are ready for a fall at any time. . Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader". I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me. It Depends. A Gri-Gri in the hands of someone who's been taught advanced belaying skills with the device in question is safer. However an untrained beginner who thinks the Gri-Gri will automatically lock off every time is an accident waiting to happen. There have been many instances where people have been dropped by belayers using Gri-Gri's. With certain skinny ropes the device in question still needs the belayers hand on the brake side of the rope. With ANY rope, the belayers hand should be on the brake side of the rope when using a Grigri. Taking your brake hand off is improper use of the device. People are saying that the Grigri makes people lazy b/c they learn they don't have to lock-off. This is improper use of the device. The autolock is a backup, you still need to have your brake hand on, and you still need to lock off. Don't blame the device if people cannot use it right. Thats why the Grigri is not a beginner tool. You still need to know how to belay, PLUS there are added complexities.
|
|
|
|
|
maldaly
Feb 13, 2007, 8:09 PM
Post #124 of 256
(7296 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1208
|
taino, you are soooo right. Your rant should be chiseled into the entrance of every gym out there. From a device standpoint, a Grigri or Cinch might be "safer" than a manual style device but when you look at the stats you'll see that there are way more dropped climbers (maybe 10:1?)with locking assist devices than there are with the manual one. It's no contest. There are lots of reasons for this, the primary one being the assumption that these locking assist devices are somehow "safer", when in fact, they're just different. In the hands of a skilled and practiced and attentive belayer and Grigri or Cinch is a wonderful thing and allows the climber and belayer to work together inways impossible with manual devices. Note that my adjectives are connected with "and". Plenty of skilled belayers have dropped people because they weren't paying attention. As John Wayne used to say, "It ain't the arrow...it's the Injun'." The worst crime ever perpetrated against the grigri was when someone made the assumption that they are good for beginners because they are automatic. NOT!
Climb safe,
Mal
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 13, 2007, 8:17 PM
Post #125 of 256
(7281 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
maldaly wrote: The worst crime ever perpetrated against the grigri was when someone made the assumption that they are good for beginners because they are automatic. NOT! Climb safe, Mal
Trophy for that.
Mal that is exactly why I don't teach any noob's how to use a auto-locking device untill they understand the short-commings associated with the use of them by an inexperianced belayer. I've never been a fan of them, although I think your Cinch rocks. I think the extention of your statement, and what would be the second offence to the GriGri, would be the fact that a number of gyms only permit GriGri/Cinch/auto-locking devices to be used.
|
|
|
|
|
|
