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cracklover
Feb 15, 2007, 5:10 PM
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jt512 wrote: So, really, then, in 15 min. you are teaching just enough so that they can belay under tightly controlled circumstances with supervision.
That is correct.
In reply to: Imagine, instead, that they would immediately be belaying you, unsupervised, while seconding you on a multi-pitch route. Furthermore, after they leave you that day, you expect them to be able to competently belay anybody on a multi-pitch route.
I could train such a belayer, but I'd rather redesign the course so that the instructor ratio was higher. With a competent instructor remaining at the belay ledges, you could get in a lot more climbing and a lot less drilling.
Frankly, I agree with your basic premise. My point was simply that the framework for an excellent belayer can be laid down in a very short period of time, even including the issue of how and when to use an anchor. It does, however, take time, practice, and an experienced person as guide, to solidify.
Oh, and I agree with whomever it was that said that teaching attitude is as important as technique. Absolutely.
TR belaying is actually very simple, and if you teach a pinch-and-slide method, as I do, it is perfectly applicable to lead belaying. All that's required is to layer on more techniques and considerations.
GO
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cracklover
Feb 15, 2007, 5:18 PM
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gblauer wrote: olderic, I suspect you are alone on this Valentine's Day.
Nah, he likes playing the part of the crotchety retro-grouch every day! :)
But he's not as miserly as he seems. Actually, he's seen a lot, and has a lot of good info to share. It just doesn't always come out smelling of roses.
GO
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jsh
Feb 15, 2007, 6:00 PM
Post #178 of 256
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Gabe, you're asking a very pertinent question about braking method.
You know where I taught for years. Much against my personal beliefs and wishes, I *had* to teach pinch & slide, palm-up, because of "policy". In my experience, the instinct for beginners to hold both hands up in front of their face where they can see them (read: in non-braked postion) is quite, quite strong.
It took five minutes to teach the pinch & slide motion. It took the next HOUR to drill in the feeling of keeping the rope braked off whenever possible. Even then, often when I'd see these students come back in, there they were - both hands in front of their face.
On my own, I teach palm-down. I believe it's a critical difference in terms of ability to brake or catch a fall.
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erisspirit
Feb 15, 2007, 6:39 PM
Post #179 of 256
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olderic wrote: But I have to ask - what is (was) your point in posting this? What danger are you trying to alert us to? You had climbed with is person and behaved in this way (practice "Whipper") mutiple times before if I read the thread correctly. This was an accident - what's the point? Are you trying to make your self feel better by blaming her?
this is an Injuries & Accidents forum... sooooo I am guessing her point was: To post about her Injury & Accident.
olderic wrote: I think this whole concept of taking practice whippers kind of silly (and plenty of females do it in my primary gym too - maybe it's a gender thing)
I don't think its a gender thing.
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markc
Feb 16, 2007, 2:20 AM
Post #181 of 256
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oldsalt wrote: I apologize in advance for this  but does anyone else see the similarities between learning to belay and learning to make love? cracklover wrote: My point was simply that the framework for an excellent belayer can be laid down in a very short period of time.... It does, however, take time, practice, and an experienced person as guide, to solidify. Here's to more time and practice!
Because in both cases, someone's ass is on the line? I mean, um...
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curt
Feb 16, 2007, 4:06 AM
Post #182 of 256
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oldsalt wrote: I apologize in advance for this but does anyone else see the similarities between learning to belay and learning to make love?
Why? Did you get dropped?
Curt
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cracklover
Feb 16, 2007, 2:01 PM
Post #183 of 256
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[cut slightly funny but not terribly appropriate jokes. This is, after all, an accident thread.]
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 19, 2007, 3:19 PM)
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hosh
Feb 18, 2007, 8:55 AM
Post #184 of 256
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carabiner96 wrote: Sounds way more complicated than it should be. In my world (small and simple as it is): Belayer: "off belay?" Climber: "off belay." Belayer: "belay OFF." Climber "Ok." Though usually the belayer would just wait for the climber to initiate the off belay. Depends on how long they're dicking around up top.
Call me pointless and redundant, but I like to make sure this command is repeated at least 3 times before anything changes.
Here's my example:
Climber: "Chris, I'm at the anchor and will be rapping down. I'm off belay!"
Belayer: "Ok hosh, I'm taking you off belay now!"
Climber: "Thanks Chris, I no longer need your belay services, thanks!"
Belayer: "OK, you are coming off belay!"
Climber: "Thanks, Off belay!"
Belayer: [disengages belay] "hosh, Your belay is now OFF!"
Adds to auditory clutter, but really cuts down on miscommunication. I know it's a lot to go through, but you don't get taken off belay unless you really mean it this way. All my climbing partners in AK practice this (at least when they climb with me). I know, this doesn't really work on long routes, but it sure gets the job done safely on the short, single pitch cragging stuff.
hosh, off belay.
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billcoe_
Feb 19, 2007, 2:53 AM
Post #186 of 256
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granite_grrl wrote: I think what I really want is people to accept the dangers in this sport, take responsability. I have stopped thinking in terms of never, because I should never have fallen off a 5.5 section of a climb. ..... And then, when you least expect it........WAM!!!.......
Welcome to climbing. So true. Most old timers have some horror story of a lesson learned the hard way. That is then they start getting good at paying attention and learning. I am speaking from personal experince here.
Gravity rules.
BTW JT512, you - of course - were once again correct.
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notapplicable
Feb 19, 2007, 4:27 AM
Post #187 of 256
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granite_grrl wrote: I have stopped thinking in terms of never, because I should never have fallen off a 5.5 section of a climb. ..... And then, when you least expect it........WAM!!!.......
billcoe wrote: Most old timers have some horror story of a lesson learned the hard way.
Very true words. It seems alot of people think they are beyond error. Murphys law is a blade sharp enough to cut even the most battle hardened and calloused of climbers.
The inevitability of them is no excuse for the mistakes we make but they can and will happen, no reason to fool ones self about that.
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opti12206
Feb 20, 2007, 12:54 AM
Post #188 of 256
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Wow glad that you are still with us. This can serve as a lesson to the rest of us that climbing is dangerous and you need to choose their belayers carefully. I wish you a speedy recovery. It sucks not being able to climb. I am just coming back from a fractured ankle. Hang in their and keep climbing.
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puck1340
Feb 20, 2007, 10:41 PM
Post #189 of 256
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i hope you fare well with the recovery. i'm sincerely sorry for your situation. anybody new to climbing that i let belay me, i anchor to a tree/rock and give them a gri gri. i tell them "if anything goes wrong, just let go. it will fix itself"
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granite_grrl
Feb 21, 2007, 12:28 PM
Post #190 of 256
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puck1340 wrote: i hope you fare well with the recovery. i'm sincerely sorry for your situation. anybody new to climbing that i let belay me, i anchor to a tree/rock and give them a gri gri. i tell them "if anything goes wrong, just let go. it will fix itself"
I guess that's one way to handle a new belayer, heaven forbid that you spend the time to actually teach them how to belay to a level where you can trust them.
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cracklover
Feb 21, 2007, 2:32 PM
Post #191 of 256
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granite_grrl wrote: puck1340 wrote: i hope you fare well with the recovery. i'm sincerely sorry for your situation. anybody new to climbing that i let belay me, i anchor to a tree/rock and give them a gri gri. i tell them "if anything goes wrong, just let go. it will fix itself" I guess that's one way to handle a new belayer, heaven forbid that you spend the time to actually teach them how to belay to a level where you can trust them.
Yup, he's like the third person to say this, or something to this effect. And I'm sure there are plenty of people who are doing it but not saying so. I hope all of you who have perfect faith in the Gri Gri to do the job of belaying you never have to learn the hard way...
GO
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winglessangel
Feb 22, 2007, 2:48 AM
Post #192 of 256
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Hi,
first of all, I hope you are feeling better. Hope you have a great recovery.
second, wow, I almost can't believe your words, on Friday, Feb 9th, I felt due to belay failure and broke L2 and L1. It was just one day before your injury!!
In my case the rope ended and ran through the gri-gri, but still, a belay/lower failure, the guy should have seen it.
if you need anything, any help keeping your head together, just ask, I may know how you feel, hard training, really believing this was going to be THE YEAR and all the suddenly... bah! this...
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gblauer
Moderator
Feb 22, 2007, 8:02 PM
Post #193 of 256
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Post incident analysis by the gym owner (he was not a witness, but gathered information through discussions with me and the belayer) suggests the following elements contributed to the loss of control of the rope. The belayer was:
1) Too far from the wall
2) Standing at an incorrect angle to the wall (far off and too the right of the climb)
3) The belayer had her brake hand too far away from her body and attempted to brake by wrapping the rope around her body with her brake hand ending up on her buttocks
4) The belayer had too much slack in the system
Additionally, the gym owner suggested that this was not a "lead fall" as I was at the top of the climb, with the bolt clipped right at chest level when I let go of the top hold. He believes that the belayer never felt the "tug" on her harness because this was more like a top rope fall (I don't get this explanation) and that the rope started running through the system before she realized that she did not have me braked off. (This was due to the distance from the wall, the angle and the amount of slack rope in the system). Once the rope started running, she could not gain control and I hit the deck.
On another note, after all the discussion of Gri Gri vs. ATC, I was incredulous when I watched a person get dropped last night at the gym. His girlfriend opened the gate of the Gri Gri and she dropped him 10 feet to the deck. He ended up being choppered to the hospital because he suffered a precipitous decline in blood pressure. I have seen his girlfriend in the gym on several occasions. She is a "noob", but, she has at least 6 months of experience using a gri gri.
Bottom line: Sh*t happens, especially when you least expect it.
On a happier note, I am doing remarkably well (all those prayers and healing sessions) and I am almost pain free.
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granite_grrl
Feb 22, 2007, 8:12 PM
Post #194 of 256
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gblauer wrote: On a happier note, I am doing remarkably well (all those prayers and healing sessions) and I am almost pain free.
Glad to hear this, Gail. Keep us posted on your recovery.
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cracklover
Feb 22, 2007, 8:59 PM
Post #195 of 256
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Thanks for reporting back, Gail.
gblauer wrote: The belayer was: 1) Too far from the wall 2) Standing at an incorrect angle to the wall (far off and too the right of the climb) 3) The belayer had her brake hand too far away from her body and attempted to brake by wrapping the rope around her body with her brake hand ending up on her buttocks 4) The belayer had too much slack in the system
I'm sorry, but none of these explain why the belayer lost control of the belay.
Regarding 1 and 2: The worst that standing in the wrong place can do is pull you in to the wall. Did she get pulled off her feet and let go of the device to catch herself before hitting the ground? Now *that* would be an explanation.
Regarding 3: Wrapping the rope behind your butt gives you more friction. Unless she had her belay device set up completely wrong, I cannot understand how she could have had it fully braked as you state, and still dropped you. This simply doesn't add up.
Regarding 4: Having slack in the system is bad, and can certainly be startling, but is not a safety issue unless there is so much slack that you hit the ground before it comes taut, or the belayer gets flustered from the jolt of the rope coming taut all of a sudden, and does something stupid. Is that what happened?
Sounds like we'll never know why your belayer can catch you under some circumstances but not under others. Too bad. Your choice, but personally, I wouldn't be comfortable having her belay me. We know she does something sufficiently wrong that she'd drop you, but have no idea what, and thus can't correct it. No thanks. I'm *very* glad to hear you're on the mend so quickly. It sounds mean to say so, but the next time could be much worse.
Oh, and regarding the gri-gri dropper you just witnessed in your gym: I don't think shit just happens. You don't drop someone with a gri-gri unless you screw up big time. That's not an act of god, it's a major personal fuck-up. Yes, there's a learning curve with belaying. When I first learned how to use a gri-gri, my technique wasn't smooth, and I short-roped people a few times. But I knew how to use the device properly, and no-one was ever at risk of being dropped.
I apologize if this comes off as harsh, but the "shit happens" attitude, IMO, fosters behaviour somewhere between recklessness and negligence.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 22, 2007, 9:06 PM)
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billl7
Feb 22, 2007, 9:23 PM
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cracklover wrote: Thanks for reporting back, Gail. gblauer wrote: The belayer was: 1) Too far from the wall 2) Standing at an incorrect angle to the wall (far off and too the right of the climb) 3) The belayer had her brake hand too far away from her body and attempted to brake by wrapping the rope around her body with her brake hand ending up on her buttocks 4) The belayer had too much slack in the system I'm sorry, but none of these explain why the belayer lost control of the belay.
Always good to ask more questions but ...
I've seen it happen in the gym. The case was when a leader had stated that he preferred a fair amount of slack. It was a difficult route and I suspect the leader did not want to be short-roped at a sketchy stance for clipping.
The leader fell from within a few feet of the top (may have been clipping) and landed pretty hard on his feet as the rope started going taught. The belayer did not get jerked around. No discernable injuries but I heard the belayer mutter - "I don't care what you want, that's the last time I give out that much slack."
Seems plausible to me that the belayer let the slack get out of control. Perhaps time and more questions will further rule this in/out.
Bill L
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olderic
Feb 22, 2007, 9:56 PM
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A lot doesn't jive. Earlier it was stated that the belayer felt "a burning in the palm of her hand" - that wouldn't have been the case if there was so much slack that the rope never came tight.
All the rest about the belayer being out of position would mean that the belayer got a tremendous yank and subsequently lost control. Doesn't sound like that happened.
Either the rope was running through the belay device or it wasn't. Either the belayer was yanked or they weren't. The truth is never going to be determined on this thread.
Of course Gabe is right that the "sh*t happens is no excuse for negligence" and that this injury was certainly preventable but it's not worth the effort to analyze until some meaningful facts come out.
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jakedatc
Feb 22, 2007, 10:39 PM
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In reply to: A lot doesn't jive
i agree.. if they were locked off behind their ass then a short fall shouldnt budge that..
being far from the wall and they got yanked too hard then they would have been pulled towards the wall first.. which would result in a longer fall but not to the deck..
more slack in the system would have made for a softer catch rather than a harder one..
incorrect angle? what does that mean? if the route goes straight up then being too far right just means you are further away.. same as if you went backwards.. if it's a traverse then going right is the same as going backwards on a vert. route.. i dont see how this effects how you belay. (someone correct me if im wrong here)
it almost sounds like the rope was through the ATC but not clipped into the biner.. but i dont know if you can lead belay with it like that and not have it yank out through normal slack feeding. This would explain them feeling a rope burn, you not feeling any tension but the belayer did
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billl7
Feb 22, 2007, 10:43 PM
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Too much slack (#4) is listed as one of the gym owner's findings. Intended or not, Gabe inferred that too much slack in the system would not lead to the accident. Edit: No, Gabe was clear in his later discussion of #4. I focused on that first line sentence.
It's too soon to rule contributors out.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 22, 2007, 11:16 PM)
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billl7
Feb 22, 2007, 10:48 PM
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jakedatc wrote: This would explain them feeling a rope burn, you not feeling any tension but the belayer did
Bill L
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