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dakind50
Mar 29, 2007, 6:26 PM
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Hello, I am new to moutaineering and have a few questions.
My goal is to climb Denali when I turn 30. Which is in two years from now. I have done long hikes on the AT (I live in DC) and know how to camp/live outdoors for a spell without carrying my kitchen sink with me, but I want to move into greater challenges.
I am looking for a two year plan to build up to my goal. I currently play very competitive rugby and do yoga, so my fitness is pretty good. I plan on taking the winter courses at International Mountain schools this fall/winter. I am looking for both a progressive (in US only, can afford to go out of country) chart of places 'to-do' and a good progressive shopping list that I can spread out over 2 years. I have done small peaks already, Mt. Fuji and Mauna Kea. But that is nothing in comparison to Denali.
Thanks so much for reading, if there are some FAQ's I missed out there please point them to me, as I don't want to waste anyone's time..
Chris
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kixx
Mar 29, 2007, 7:25 PM
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I'm writing you a "book." Look for it to be posted in a day or two.
I was in your shoes 6 years ago.
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dakind50
Mar 29, 2007, 7:31 PM
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Cool thanks I am looking forward to it!!
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olderic
Mar 29, 2007, 7:43 PM
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Spend some time hiking and camping in the White Mountains (NH). Do a Presidential Traverse therre and dpn't try and rush it - force your self to stay out for a couple of nights to focus on the cold weather camping.
Climb Rainier with one of the services - make sure you take the extended course that spends considerale time on glacier travel and crevasse rescue.
I assume you are going to do this with some professional service - they will give you a boatload of advice.
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kane_schutzman
Mar 29, 2007, 7:44 PM
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What were your goals?
Can't wait to read it!
To the op: I am in your position now. I signed up for a course with an AAI school.I know they have seminars for Denali, but I think any training would be good. I am trying to get on a Denali in the Late 08. You probably already know this, but without much first hand knowlege I can only tell you what I logically thing. Rainier, Baker, 14,000 in CO, and do them with the huge pack, and maybe find a way to drag a sled.
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dakind50
Mar 29, 2007, 7:50 PM
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I think the end goal is to do the trip without a service, prehaps using services on the other trips as part of the training. White Mountains is a must do I am thinking.
Being group/self reliant is one of the main goals, prehaps more then even getting to the summit. I am that way in the woods no problem right now, doing it in snow is much different I am thinking..
thanks
chris
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drzaous
Mar 29, 2007, 10:56 PM
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Doing Denali unguided is somethign that I tink you will want more than 2 years prep for. i hate to be the party pooper ont his one, but I live and climb in interior Alaska, and I have been doing it for 5 years now (2 years before than in coastal Alaska). I was thinking about doing denali this spring (and have been thinking about it every spring for 3 years now), and I just don't think I am ready. A lot of people don't take Denali seriously enough. The West Butt may be a walk-up, but you need to be completely confident in your clothing systems, sleeping systems, and above all PARTNERSHIPS, before you go. if you really want to do it in 2 years, I woudl really urge that you go with a guiding service. Like I said, I hate to be the synic, and rain on everyone's parade, but people die up there, and most of the time, it's the people NOT on the guided trips. If you really want to do it unguided, my advice is this:
-Give yourself more time.
-Do an Alaska Range trip beforehand (Ruth Gorge, a couple weeks at Kahiltna basecamp peakbagging, anythignt o get yourself familiar with Alaska weather)<-WAY IMPORTANT!!!
-Get a VERY good partner, both in terms of ability and a person you can completely get along with (remember, any arguements you have now, will be exponentially multiplied when you have to spend a week tentbound at 17k feet in a storm.)
-Do as many winter camping trips for as long as you can. Most people are not turned around by technical difficulty on Denali, they are turned around by being burned out by the 'grind'=camping in the cold for weeks.
These are just ideas. If you really want to do it in the time frame you are looking at AND unguided, then give yourelf a LOT of practice trips. Plan on spending every weekend and one week a month on winter climbign trips. Being a proficient winter camper will be your key to success. Spending a lot of time on Mt. Washington would also give you a good idea of what life above 17k on Denali is going to be like (windy and cold ALL THE TIME).
I hope this helps, and like I said, I don't want to be the ass that rains on everyone's parade, but I hate reading about all the accidents that happen on Denali every year.
PS Don't be a cheapskate on gear. How much is your life worth? Get the best of everything you can. You will have plenty of time to contemplate your cost to benefit analysis while you freeze at high camp in your 'bargain' sleeping bag.
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dakind50
Mar 30, 2007, 4:52 AM
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Dude I hear ya man. I am thinking about it hard believe me. My partner in the trip is also pushing us in that direction. Regarless I want to be taught on much smaller places, with much less risk to start with and to learn correctly from the start. Believe me, I know people die up there. I have been trolling forums and websites for quite a bit now. The shit is legit! As far as equipment goes I agree with ya.
Regarless I would love any training advice and or places on the east coast to learn the craft...Has anyone used/taken IMC classes....
thanks again...
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wanderlustmd
Mar 30, 2007, 2:21 PM
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I'm with the advice on New Hampshire. I grew up there and Mt. Washington can be pretty brutal; people die on that mountain every year and it's 1/5 of Denali.
I understand if this is a goal to complete before 30, but it's not like the mountain is going anywhere. If you can adequately prep in two years, then fine. But don't let it cloud your judgement.
Good advice above. My old climbing partner attempted the WB a few years ago, didn't make it due to weather, but it is definatley a great endurance challenge. You systems need to be completely dialed, as was mentioned above.
I'm sure the courses will teach you this, but make sure you learn crevasse rescue techniques. I've never done a class through IM, sorry.
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divnamite
Mar 30, 2007, 2:36 PM
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I just came back from IMCS mountaineering class. I had a great time, weather was beautiful. We didn't summit because we were late. The class itself was very good, in term of coverage and depth. I enjoyed it very much and learned a lot more than I imagined. I'm also a newbie to alpine and ice, personally, I don't think a three day class is not nearly enough.
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dakind50
Mar 30, 2007, 3:05 PM
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Very nice thank you. I would not think just doing a 3 day would be enough, but a good base to start building from. Anyone know good places in backcountry VA or West VA that would be good training. Nothing on this side of the states is really going to do the altitude justice, but getting the systems down is key its seems...
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unreleasedenergy
Mar 30, 2007, 3:42 PM
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in WV, Dolly sods or spruce knob in the ANF are ok.
pick a weekend and go, hike off someplace exposed and bivy, wake up early, pack up and hike until dark to another corner. bivy and hike out the next morning or repeat another all day.
some times the weather cooperates and its -10 at night.
nothing to crazy but decent for an intro to systems.
i second Mt. washington, especially the winter presi. that will prepare you better than anything else in the north east for the west butt. white outs and storms all the time.
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drzaous
Mar 30, 2007, 11:16 PM
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Something I forgot to mention...
There is more to climbing in Alaska than just technical know-how... We have very distinct weather patterns that produce unique alpine challenges. Only through experience can one gain knowledge about thee features.. double cornicing, what incoming bad weather looks like, etc. that was my reasoning behind making a trip to the ruth or Kahiltna a year or so prior to your denali attempt. One trip will not make you an expert, BUT it will give you an idea of the type of unique mountaineering challenges Alaska can create. Also, if your going to go unguided, see if you can get a few other people to go with you. Once you hit 14k you can split up and do your own thing, but havign more people will help out on the trudge to 14k through the monster crevasses.
Seriously though. Don't underestimate the how much of an undertaking a trip like that is. Get AS MUCH training as you can prior. You literally cannot be prepared enough...
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kixx
Mar 31, 2007, 2:31 AM
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In 2001 i had been doing a lot of backpacking in the Northeastern woods and then went on to overnight trips into the winter of that year. After my fist trip i could think of nothing else but winter in the mountains. It got me thinking of bigger mountains and after looking into mountaineering i decided to make it a goal to get to Denali in 2003 or 2004. All that summer of 2001 i read everything available on mountaineering, Denali, Rainier, glaciers, winter clothing and camping, mountain rescue, mountaineering accidents, and everything else i could find along the way (i accumulated a very large mountaineering and alpine climbing library in the process). i knew of 6 or 7 friends who would be interested and figured we would naturally drop out 1 by 1 until we had a core group of 3 or 4 (we ended up with 3 plus 3 porters that i'll explain later). I also realized that this was going to be an expensive undertaking, but the company i work for supports these kinds of challenges and put up the remainder of the funding after family and friends (if anyone wants a job in NYC i am a manager there now - we like to hire elite athletes - including climbers - and give you the time off for training and trips).
Our group enjoyed the learning process and was very independent so we committed to training, doing our homework and “paying our dues” so that we could go unguided, and furthermore we wanted to climb the North side of Denali on the Muldrow Glacier to get the solitude and satisfaction of following in the footsteps of the first ascent and a complete traverse. We didn't have much technical climbing experience (other than one member of the team who had spent a few years working for the NPS in Yellowstone, Yosemite, and North Cascades NP) but we knew self reliance, bad weather experience, our team, and physical fitness was far more important. We all had very strong elite athlete backgrounds (rowing, marathons, ultra marathons, and best of all we were working as movers in Boston) as well as a long history of backpacking, and these strengths are what led us to making the Muldrow our goal.
So, we knew we had a lot of work to do to get ready for Alaska. After i took crevasse rescue and winter mountaineering courses offered locally in NH we found ways of schooling ourselves on everything. We staged crevasse rescue "situations" on our local crag - hauling up haul sacks as fallen climbers. We tested all forms of snow anchors, low angle rope and rescue work, winter survival (snow shelters), clothing systems, food systems, stoves, and on and on. We spent a lot of time on Mount Washington and the Adirondack mountains in truly unspeakable conditions. We discovered things that worked and others that didn't. We made mistakes that would have killed us on bigger mountains and learned to prevent them form happening again. We could do it all in the dark, tie knots and work with ropes in our mittens, and had fun doing it. (most of the fun is getting ready for a climb IMO). I even met with Brad Washburn (RIP) and discussed the route and his long history on Denali. (he is a topic for another story)
Soon we were ready for Rainier where we spent 10 days on the mountain in winter. We told jokes and farted a lot in a snow cave while winds topped 100mph outside and the temps dove. (destroying two tents at camp Muir in a guided party, we discovered after it finally cleared.) We continued to refine our crevasse rescue and mountain rescue techniques during good weather days, then summited on the second to last day, spending that night in an open bivy at 12,000 feet under the stars (it was really cold but it felt good to know we could do it.). All the hard work and years of preparation was starting to pay off.
Finally in the spring of 2004 we headed off to Alaska. Our group of 6 included the three climbers who had become very tight and knew exactly what we were doing and why, and also a group of 3 “porters” whom we knew through some loose connections that came along to help us porter our stuff to the glacier. These other 3 guys were very close to one another, worked together for a major outdoor apparel and gear chain store (EMS if you care), and went rock and ice cragging together often. None of them had ventured past the crags in any committing way (other than one who had been through NOLS), and had spent most of their time on short top rope climbs, but they wanted to go to Alaska because.., well just because it was Alaska. I agreed to pay for their plane tickets if they would help us porter our gear the 19 miles to the glacier rather than us hiring dog mushers.
Anyway, they took it upon themselves to sabotage our trip, and I mean that in a literal sense. For reasons we can only speculate they decided that we did not deserve to do what we were doing. After getting dropped off at Wonder Lake at the end of the road in Denali NP they told us what we were doing was impossible and left us there with 30 days of supplies while they headed back to the park entrance for some day hikes. Needless to say we decided it would take us too long to shuttle all the gear the 19 miles to the glacier, requiring 2 trips (three times one way.) After a day of hard thinking by the McKinley river we decided that, without our “porters,” we were SOL and so we cached the gear and made off for the Muldrow Glacier to see how much exploring we could do with 7 days of supplies. We crossed the river 4 times in the process, and covered the 19 miles back out to Wonder lake in 1 Alaskan “day.” We saw an incredible mountain up close and personal and it still sits in my soul.
After you read this post check out the “other side of the story” which I discovered a year after the fact on RC.com. The thread from one of our sabotaging porters is linked – read it after you finish this post. It still makes my blood boil. If any of you who replied to that post are still around you better man up.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ring=muldrow;#733006
So, anyway what I'm saying is that the people you go with will make or break any endeavor of Denali proportions. The 2 guys who were perfect for Denali at the time don't have much ambition for hard alpine climbing, and since then I have moved on to new climbing partners who's interests are more aligned with my alpine ambitions (my new goal is to open new routes in places rarely visited). I've gone to Rainier again, and done a lot of alpine climbing in the Pacific Northwest and Northeastern United States with partners who are at that level (and some who weren't.) As for the “porters,” they will have bad karma for life, so if you know them, don't climb with them. In fact, do me a favor and shun them.
Make absolutely sure that you have people around you who's interests and goals are aligned with yours. Talk about it to make sure, and find new partners if they are not. It's hard to do this because you'll be afraid that if you decide not to have them with you, it'll take forever to find new partners. Relax, you can find people, and if you can't, I'll go with you. I'd love to get back up to Alaska but I'm not going to go until the right folks come along.
One of the reasons I'm against guided trips on big mountains is that you don't get to choose your partners. Also with a guided group you feel like you don't have to do all your homework and “pay your dues” because the guides will be there, and that's BS. (besides, isn't the process of self discovery the whole reason we do this???)
As you can see from my story, you can be ready for Denali in 2 years if you devote everything to it... but make sure your partners are on the same wavelength as you are. My climbing friends were ready, but 3 small, secretly selfish, and self absorbed, EMS employees from little Connecticut was all it took to throw away years of research, training, and lots and lots of money. The people you climb with are more valuable than any gear or guide you can pay for. Don't let people who are afraid of life tell you that it's too dangerous, or that you don't know what you're in for. If it's dangerous than learn the dangers and how to avoid them, if you don't know what your in for then do your homework and find out so that you do know. Sheeesh, if nobody ever researched and discovered things on their own there would be no computers, cars, crampons, dynamic ropes, moon walks, or mountaineering.
Learn from my mistakes, don't reinvent the wheel.
Lastly. I'm hoping to climb something on the North side of Denali in 2008 or 2009 if anyone is interested... drop me a line. I'm nothing if not transparent. ( I gotta put a plug in there for good partners, you can never have enough)
Climb Hard,
Kris
(by the way, if you read the linked post from 2004 you may have guessed that i am not a "kid," i do have some idea of what i'm doing, i have tied a figure 8 once or twice, and every time i have climbed on Ranier i have climbed with a permit. If anybody knows the rangers at Talkeetna you know what fools these portering clowns made of themselves by "ratting me out." i also would not mind if anybody was up for a real life Count of Monte Cristo - contact me if you live in the Northeast and you'd like to play along"
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dakind50
Mar 31, 2007, 4:14 AM
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Dude all I can say is Holy sh*t.
I guess its the rugby player in me, but those cats would have been crawling back home, cause I would have broke both their legs. My wife is a lawyer so I would do the time. I just can't believe that. On top of that they felt it was ok to take you, at least 1500 bucks, for the plane ticket and just say fu*k it. Crazy
I have read about the route you were trying to do. The hike into it seems killer, then you start climbing up...Thanks for the info.
The time it takes for the learning is going to make this tougher. My fitness is great, but I am basically trying to go from good AT hiking experiance to a expert level experience in a very short amount of time.
Prehaps I need to give my self more.
Denali will be there long after me...
Regarless thanks for sharing, prehaps we can hook up at some point after I take some classes...I don't want to be a liablity....
peace
chris
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gargrantuan
Apr 1, 2007, 4:45 AM
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kixx- i guess i'll be the one to say it.......they were right to bail on you. i wouldn't have wanted your deaths on my conscience either. you have obviously learned a lot since then and i would hazard a guess that the lessons you elucidated in your post have kept you alive.
dakind50- get a guide, you're obviously a punter.
honestly, i think it is great you have set yourself a goal and are searching for ways to achieve it but the best way to do that is with an AMGA/ACMG certified guide. they are the partner that knows the weather patterns, has the experience, and the judgement to keep you safe. if you REALLY want to summit Denali in two years being guided is the safest and most reliable option.
i question how much experience and "mountain sense" a person can accrue in two years, courses or no. the reality is that you have ZERO knowledge of what it takes to climb at altitude, ZERO knowledge of Alaskan weather, little experience in the alpine, and little to no technical ability.
i don't want to shit on your dreams, because we all need dreams, but i think you need to curb your ambition. why climb denali? why does it have to be in the next two years? people who go to the mountains with strict timelines, specified goals, and little patience end up dead.
i hope you climb denali one day, but i hope you realize that alpine climbing is life long pursuit and that getting to the top isn't nearly as fulfilling as the process we undergo to achieve that end.
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atg200
Apr 1, 2007, 2:58 PM
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have to agree with gargrantuan. bailing on you after getting there is pretty lousy and for that their karma sucks, but i wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere near that scene either.
anyway, i also agree that 2 years isn't long enough to build up enough mountain sense. folks that go up there without a solid base usually do fine, but if the shit hits the fan they end up dead or needing a rescue. kinda like the gumbies who decide they can climb a wall after reading about it on the internet.
anyway, you just can't get prepared for that sort of thing on the east coast. sure, the weather sucks in new hampshire in the winter, but without altitude and glaciers it is just a different sport.
a good plan is the following:
1. hike up a bunch of 14ers in a place like colorado. it'll get you fit, you'll start to get used to higher altitudes, and you'll learn an awful lot about mountain weather.
2. go to mexico and climb the volcanos. they are an easy way to get up to 18K without having to deal with difficult glaciers or much in the way of objective hazards. do the ayoloco glacier on ixta instead of the standard scree slog.
3. go to the cascades and climb a bunch of mountains. dial in your crevasse rescue skills. get away from the cattle trench routes on the volcanos so you have to do some route finding.
4. go to colorado in the winter and suffer in the cold. take some avy courses before you do it.
5. for your final exam go down to ecuador and climb some volcanos. they are 19-20K and will have route finding and crevasse issues, but the nice thing is they are day climbs from the huts and its cheap. its also a good way to see if you really like feeling sick and cold and tired while doing the hardest work of your life.
it'll probably take you 5-6 years to go through this list if you are in a hurry. that is a good thing - it takes time and mileage for most folks to get competent. short circuiting the learning curve is fine for cragging, but it is a good way to end up in a bad way if something goes wrong in the mountains.
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tallnik
Apr 1, 2007, 8:32 PM
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Combine this post above with the winter camping in New England (or even better, drive in to QC for some 'real' cold weather - unless you do Mt. Washington that 'little mountain' can be HARDCORE. Once was up there is +5C in the valley that night saw 105mph winds, -40C windchill and 10ft visibility. In OCTOBER!).
Cheers,
Nik
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kixx
Apr 2, 2007, 4:32 PM
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gargrantuan and atg200,
i believe that if you guys and anyone else on your side of the fence knew me and the folks involved you might think differently on your opinions. i'm not going to be able to change your minds about my specific situation, or the ability of a party to safely complete an expeditionary climb ofter two years of preparation. But i would like to argue my case a little further since this is such a strong philosophy of mine.
Climbing big mountains takes special people who can feel comfortable in that environment. It takes true grit and a hard @ss personality which some people have and others don't. i can think of at least 6 situations i have witnessed and countless others i have read about where a person has mentaly "lost it" on a mountain when pushed past their comfort zone. When this happens people die. The biggest mistake a mountaineer or alpinist can make is to look past the warning signs and take along somebody who just doesn't have "it."
Now, i'm not claiming to be a fearless bad@ss. i could not complete a 1 mile open water swim without "freakin out." If i was 8,000 meters up, on a grade VII, 100 ft above a belay with only a sketchy pin i would "freak out."
In other words i know my limits and i owe it to everyone else to trust that they know there's. i firmly believe that it is 90% peer pressure that gets the wrong folks into the mountains and gets them hurt or killed after they "freak out" from the psychology of never having wanted to be there in the first place. i violated the peer pressure rule before and never will again. (i did not pressure the sabotaging porters, they wanted to go so they could sabotage our trip behind our backs)
i also understand that a mental break down is not always the reason behind an accident in the mountains. Gumbly parties have not set running belays and the whole team ended up at the bottom of Denali Pass, people have died of AMS because they did not understand what was happening to them, people have walked into unstable snow and been swallowed by avalanches, stood too close to a cornice that broke, allowed too much slack in a rope to prevent an otherwise harmless crevasse fall, and on and on. These accidents are a result of a lack of educating themselves, not a lack of experience. All the information you need to avoid these types of accidents is out there waiting for you to find it without having to go out and experience it yourself. We don't need to reinvent the wheel - others have gone before us.
I always refer back to the first ascent of Denali by the sourdough boys. A bunch miners with no climbing experience who went from 14,000 feet to nearly 20,000ft in one day. They all had true grit and they knew it. Granted they were familiar with Alaskan weather, but they also did not have the climbing knowledge that is available to us today. In fact they knew so little about mountaineering most of the climb was improvised, but they had enough bad @ss in them to get away with it.
So my preparation routine is this:
1. Research Research and Research. Somewhere between personal written accounts, stories told to you personally be people who have been there, and scientific research lies the truth of what you will experience.
2. Evaluate
Do I really want to do this?
Do my partners really want to do this?
Do I and all of my partners have the psychological strength to get through this?
3. Practice Practice Practice
Use your research to create a methodology to use the resources you have available to practice specific details to perfection. Anticipate any kind of worse scenario you can and practice for it somehow.
All of this can be done without going to Alaska, or the Himalaya or wherever your goals are, but only if your research has left no stone unturned in you quest for knowledge. The lists of "to do's" cited above are good suggestions and there are many more good suggestions out there for practice (getting experience) but none is the be all end all.
4. Evaluate again.
Decide as a team "are we ready yet?
If no, then advance your practice to get you to that level or lower your objectives (or even get a guide). Your practiced skills must meet with the requirements of your objective.
For me this process of self discovery is 100% the value of climbing.
When devoted to this process any objective can be met in two years or less.
Example - i am not very devoted to climbing Everest, so i would get hurt or killed on that mountain without years and years of experience.
We were ready for Denali in the spring of 2004, and it was all taken from us... i can't believe that can be found acceptable. If you don't feel safe with somebody then you need to tell them and bail ASAP. i ignored the signs that these guys didn't have what it would take and i paid dearly for that.
But, why would any body be so selfish, jealous, elitist and convoluted to think that is would be a good idea to pretend you were along to help when really you planned on sabotaging them? The porters believed it was for our own safety and that is totally F'd up. They couldn't even cross the darn river.
Some got it and others don't - just know where you are and don't judge others is all i'm asking. If anybody wants to come to these forums with a big objective in mind then trust that they know their limits and provide the best information you can.
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dynosore
Apr 2, 2007, 4:54 PM
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1) they scammed you by pretending they were going to porter for you
2) Sounds like you've never been anywhere near 20000 ft., picking a route where finding out you can't handle it leaves no retreat options is bad judgement on your part. Tackle the West Buttress first, then you'll know how altitude affects you. Sorry, you were getting in over your head whether you realize it or not. I've been climbing about as long as you, and started in my late 20's, you should have many good years of climbing ahead of you, don't end up DEAD because you were impatient or have some arbitrary goal.
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atg200
Apr 2, 2007, 5:04 PM
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could be kixx - there are a handful of folks out there that can get ready for something big in that amount of time. i think that they are rare, and most likely wouldn't be popping on to this forum to ask for information though. my plan is a good one for normal folks, and not a bad one for mutants just starting out either.
anyway, your porter's karma is definitely in the toilet and it was an awful move on their part to bail after getting there - if they felt so strongly they are cowards and bastards for not bailing on you before getting there. it doesn't change the fact that i wouldn't have wanted any part of that scene though.
you can be an elite athlete and done all the research in the world, but without loads of mileage, years of familiarity with the equipment and systems so the mechanics are ingrained, and most importantly without having gone through all of the epics and fiascos that invariably happen while learning in a smaller environment, an accident is still a wild card.
you might be one of those rare folks that are capable - i don't know you, so who am i t say? i just think it is a mistake to encourage that path with someone you don't know posting up a newbie question on the internet.
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divnamite
Apr 2, 2007, 6:55 PM
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I'm a newbie to this as well, I also want to climb Denali. I'm trying to follow this chart http://www.mountainmadness.com/about/lyd.cfm I assume you can't go out of country to just climb, although Mexico is probably just cheap. So instead of Peru, Bolivia, Kilimanjaro, try replace them with Mt Rainier or Mt Whitney or other tall peaks in the US (concentrate on more technical route if possible).
As for your shopping list, almost all of the guide services provide some suggestion list for you, you can just cross reference those lists and sort out the basics. I'm no marathoner, shit, I'm an urbanite from NYC. I personally don't think I can do it in two years, if you are hardcore like kixx, you can probably do it. My view is simple, Denali isn't going anywhere anytime soon, just take your time, it's not like Denali asks about your age when you climb it. BTW, go with a guide service, I know the importance of self-reliance as a scuba diver, but unless your team is good and strong, going with a guide is the best (safe) way to go.
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atg200
Apr 2, 2007, 7:36 PM
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why wouldn't you want to go outside the US to climb? mexico and ecuador are going to be the same if not cheaper in cost to climbing in the cascades if you aren't a local.
whitney will do nothing to prepare you for denali. i think it is a very good idea to go to ecuador and do a climb that is along the lines of summit day on denali without having to worry about the big expedition part of the trip. there just isn't any substitute for going to high altitudes other than prior experience. i can go to 14K anytime without much trouble, 17K i feel it, and 20K gets hard.
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drzaous
Apr 2, 2007, 8:47 PM
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seriously, listen to all the people who are agreeing that it's a bad idea. Or just suck it up and get a guide. Getting guided up after a 20+ year climbing career that included all the pre-requisites and experience involved in 20 years of climbing...now THAT would be lame. There's no shame in being guided if you've only been going at it for 2 years. There's SO much more to mountaineering than the equipment. Its not like sport climbing, and it's not even like trad climbing. You have to KNOW your environment, INTIMATELY, to not be cheating death on Denali.
As I've stated. Every Fall, I get an itch to climb Denali. By december, I've realized I'm just not ready, and this is after 5 years of climbing in Interior Alaska and a further 3 or so at home in Anchorage, it regularly gets -30 to -50 during an average mid-winter trip up here, and I'm still scared shitless of the weather up there...
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dakind50
Apr 2, 2007, 9:31 PM
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I do want to say thanks to all. I have already read much but, and I don't know what you'll think of this.
Reading things for me (accounts of blah blah blah, tips on this or that) in books make it seem easy or do able.
Thus I asked questions from folks here to get a 'real' account of what should be done or how hard something is.
I can't really leave the country for the next two years because (and I have been planning on starting/trying this for a bit now) but I all of sudden have child on the way, thus doing long long trips is out of the question for about 2 years. So its just weekend/long weekend things until then.
Bascially I want to enter my 30's much better then I did my 20's. Which was something at 20 I didn't think would happen or as my thinking went, how could I possibly be in better shape later in life ;-0
What is a good goal then for 2 years out? Something certainly hard but something I can learn the skills to do before hand then do unguided.
I agree with most here that the point of doing something like denali is meeting the moutain on its terms.
Also please don't flame I am only looking for answers with respect to the sport and the mountain. I read a lot of threads on here with cats that the holier then thou 'tude. I see it all the time in rugby. They are also the first ones with a neck injury....
thanks and keep the info coming its been great!
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atg200
Apr 2, 2007, 9:43 PM
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Do the Mexican volcanos in 2 years. Its a fun adventure, fairly safe and forgiving, and it'll get you up to nearly 19K. If you can get a bunch of time logged in the cascades before then, go to Ecuador instead, but you do not want to be on the Ecuador volcanos without having your glacier travel and crevasse rescue skills together.
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kixx
Apr 2, 2007, 10:31 PM
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Sorry for hijacking your thread dakind50... but i hope your getting something out of it.
If you're looking for something in the lower 48 then Rainier is the grandaddy. i would set my sights on the Ingraham Direct route in May before labor day if you want to beat the crowds. That route does open up with crevasses as the season progresses into spring, so if you go any later you'll need to think about the Disappointment Cleaver Route. i would anticipate doing both so you are ready, study up on the photos so you know both routes as well as possible. big mountain navigation requires an astute memory of how everything is situated and if you get too far off route (which is easy to do when the mountain is not crowded) you need to abandon your summit try for that day and try again another.
Anything on Rainier requires extensive knowledge and practice with crevasse rescue. You could get up there and take a crevasse course (after practicing a ton on the home crags) and it would be good to see the methods in place on a real glacier. Then you could continue with the climb un-guided.
If you ever want to try some East Coast mountaineering, drop me a line. There is a lot to do locally that most people never try.
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jjanowia
Apr 2, 2007, 10:48 PM
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So it sounds like you're interested in a goal that requires well honed technical and physical abilities. Certainly mountaineering goals such as Denali require tons of both.
Have you considered an alternate big goal such as hiking the Appalachian Trail? Certainly less technical than mountaineering, but definitely demanding (but in different ways). A similarly high degree of conditioning, both mentally and physically, would be necessary to successfully complete a thru-hike.
That said, if you're going to be busy being a father, the time commitment of dialing in a finely tuned ultralight camping system would be much less than the time commitment involved in learning technical mountaineering skills.
I'm just throwing this out there since you were soliciting suggestions. Lest you think that this is not an ambitious/hardcore goal, consider that the success rate is less than 25% annually, and it's not like tons of people are succeeding each year:
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/...s_and_Statistics.htm
Anyway, I know this doesn't sound as glamorous as summitting a huge peak, but it is definitely a BAMF accomplishment.
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chriss
Apr 3, 2007, 1:05 AM
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Kixx,
Let me get this straight.
You paid for their trip to Alaska and they bailed on you?
They posted here that they were going to bail on you but didn't tell you until they got to Alaska?
That is just wrong. Regardless of your plans or abilities to complete the plan.
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stymingersfink
Apr 3, 2007, 1:50 AM
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chriss wrote: Kixx, Let me get this straight. You paid for their trip to Alaska and they bailed on you? They posted here that they were going to bail on you but didn't tell you until they got to Alaska? That is just wrong. Regardless of your plans or abilities to complete the plan.
Note to self, purchase one-way tickets for the ride up there. Afterall, not everyone comes home from that mountain.
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divnamite
Apr 3, 2007, 2:35 AM
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It's sad that Kixx's dream is now delayed because of the assholes. I think that just prove another reason why you use guides. I'm sure Kixx planned it out as best as he could've, but shit like this can ruin two years of training, countless hours of research, not to mention money on the flights.
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wanderlustmd
Apr 3, 2007, 12:58 PM
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atg200 wrote: why wouldn't you want to go outside the US to climb? mexico and ecuador are going to be the same if not cheaper in cost to climbing in the cascades if you aren't a local. whitney will do nothing to prepare you for denali. i think it is a very good idea to go to ecuador and do a climb that is along the lines of summit day on denali without having to worry about the big expedition part of the trip. there just isn't any substitute for going to high altitudes other than prior experience. i can go to 14K anytime without much trouble, 17K i feel it, and 20K gets hard.
I second this. I went to Ecuador in 02 after two solid seasons hiking, camping, and ice climbing in the Whites. Since I was prepared, the next logical step was to try altitude, and it was a great time! Cotopaxi and Cayembe are great mountains with a variety of routes, and coniditions can be quite mild weather-wise compared to Alaska. There are also many smaller foothills to warm up on. Also, the proximity of many peaks to Quito means comfortable rest/recovery opportunities post or between climbs. Many hostels will lock gear up for you, so you don't have to haul a months worth of food around for 4-5 day climbs.
While you seem to understand the importance of adequate prep, rushing toward an objective sucks the fun out of it. Not to mention the obvious fact that it simply isn't a smart idea. I did that when I first started trad climbing; I wanted to do the Nose now, and eventually climbing itself sucked because I was so wrapped up in a goal. Enjoy the experience and buildup of tackling larger objectives over time. Denali isn't going anywhere.
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mtselman
Apr 3, 2007, 2:48 PM
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dakind50 wrote: Hello, I am new to moutaineering and have a few questions. My goal is to climb Denali when I turn 30. Which is in two years from now. I have done long hikes on the AT (I live in DC) and know how to camp/live outdoors for a spell without carrying my kitchen sink with me, but I want to move into greater challenges. ......... Reading things for me (accounts of blah blah blah, tips on this or that) in books make it seem easy or do able. Thus I asked questions from folks here to get a 'real' account of what should be done or how hard something is. I can't really leave the country for the next two years because .... So its just weekend/long weekend things until then. Bascially I want to enter my 30's much better then I did my 20's. Which was something at 20 I didn't think would happen or as my thinking went, how could I possibly be in better shape later in life ;-0 What is a good goal then for 2 years out? Something certainly hard but something I can learn the skills to do before hand then do unguided. ........
First thing I would like to ask you (and you should ask yourself) is why Denali? You admit being very new to mountaineering and aside from a few high hills and backpacking trips you have not done much. I was at that point sometime ago, everyone has to start from zero. But setting up Denali as a fixed goal sounds more like your ego is pushing you. I think the right question for you to ask others and yourself would be "how do I become a better mountaineer?". That is the only worthy goal - to become better, not to "tick off" some climbs be it Everest, Denali or 5.15. As you start climbing in the mountains you will discover what styles of climbing you like more - long snow slogs at high altitude or technical routes on lower peaks, expedition style climbs or quick ascents, mixed or ice or rock; walls or ridges. You will know better if you are willing to suffer cold and pain or you prefer more "comfy" but no less beautiful routes. Then, in two years of climbing you will be able to say - "yes, I became a better mountaineer, a safer and more proficient climber than I was before". Or, maybe you'll say "forget it, I tried this mountaineering thing and it just sucks - takes too much time, gets you cold, makes you suffer and it's too bloody dangerous, etc.."
At this point it seems like you only can sacrifice weekends to get some practice. If this is indeed the case, I would definitely rule out Denali. There are certain skills that you can only learn by being in the big mountains for extended time and that includes knowing your limits in all kinds of conditions, which you do not want to start finding out high up on Denali.
Start with a goal of becoming a better mountaineer and finding out if you really enjoy it. (the process).
Select your objectives gradually, make it a progression of successful climbs and interesting attempts. Learn the lessons. Then, in two years you'd be in a better position to evaluate your options for Denali, or maybe some other objective will captivate your dreams.
Just get better!
And as far as what to do meanwhile, "atq200" gave you a pretty good list of things to start with. Going through a good alpine school to start things up is very worthwhile. And get out and climb!
Just my $0.02
--Misha
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dakind50
Apr 3, 2007, 3:06 PM
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Thanks again for the advice. I feel over the next two years I can do a bunch of long weekends and one long trip a year 7-10 days. Denali seems like much more then what I have been reading online.
This is why you ask questions in a place like this, real people whom actually do it.
I do like winter camping. I went to college in buffalo, so I know about cold and did some camping at the top of some hills where we would do some bouldering when I was in school. Not the same I understand, but its a start.
I don't know about long hikes in cold at altitude, that seems like its one of those things you can only understand once your doing it.
I know I don't wanna do the AT or super months and months long hikes such as that. Nothing against it, its great for me for a week. But after the 8th day of a 10 day trip in VA on the AT about 3 years ago, I was bored. Also, I need something to replace rugby. I love it but after 30 my body will start to break down, it already is.
From what I have read, mountaineering is something that you actually can get better at, at an older age. Would you folks say that is true? Also how many of the folks that are trying to do denali actually have all the experience that has been mentioned here. They say about 4000 thousand try it every year and about half make it. Are there that many people into mountaineering?
thanks again. Mexico looks like the way to go for my 30th. Understanding the altitude is going to be big...
chris
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atg200
Apr 3, 2007, 3:27 PM
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Based on your last post, it sounds like you may not have the attention span for mountaineering. You need to plan on about a month for Denali - even a quick trip like Mexico takes at least two weeks to not rush getting acclimated.
You also need to be able to deal with spending about a third of that time doing very little - you can't do much when the weather is bad, and you need to build in a number of very low activity rest days for acclimating. Pushing it is a good way to get sick - I know that from experience after getting pulmonary edema on aconcagua a couple of years ago. I seem to spend about as much time being sick, bored, or tired on mountaineering trips as i actually do climbing.
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dakind50
Apr 3, 2007, 3:32 PM
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What I meant was, there was no view. It was just woods and woods and woods. Its not attention span its time for the next 2 years I don't have, thus perhaps doing a super long trek such as this may and perhaps should wait. I understand that for something like a denali or a large trip 3 weeks is the min. I think I just need to get out there at this point..
Is there any 'grandfather of books' books on the sport that are a must have?
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stymingersfink
Apr 4, 2007, 11:18 PM
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mtselman wrote: I think the right question for you to ask others and yourself would be "how do I become a better mountaineer?".
never bite off more than you're willing or able to chew and swallow, else you'll find yourself being force-fed a hefty dose of humility. The flip side is hubris, but we don't talk about people while they're still alive in such terms.
edit to add:
In reply to: But after the 8th day of a 10 day trip in VA on the AT about 3 years ago, I was bored.
bretter stay away from Denali then. Try 10 days stormed out in a tent... you're not even changing locations
(This post was edited by stymingersfink on Apr 4, 2007, 11:22 PM)
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laurelja
Apr 5, 2007, 3:47 PM
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This has been a great thread. All the information you get is right on and very valuable. Last year I went to do Denali unguided with a partner after 5 years of mountaineering (mostly on my own having built my experience, Peru, Orizaba, Ranier, Shasta Whitney, Mont Blanc, Ecuador).All successful summits in rather ideal conditions with a great partner. However I was greedy to go to Denali and could not wait to have my normal partner and unwisely hooked up with someone who misrepresented their expereiince and abilites (danger will robinson).
So my too sense:
First caveat...know your partners (or in my case your enemy)
Second...Training for Denali, well you need to be capable of constant movement at whatever pace you and your team set. I won't bore you with any tips
Third...I think that despite all my snow camping and mountaineering, there were few things I learned on the fly (remember I'm in Arizona, but do travel to cold places alot), and they are: knowing how to quickly build snow walls (and good/solid) ones. Having a division of labor for when you get into camp, and an agreed upon philosophy (some will want to immediately set up camp, some want to crash) about how you will proceed, in order to be the most efficient and quick.
Fourth...Be open to moods/lack of communication and keep your humor.
I did not summit...pulled the trigger when I realized this man was not capable of pulling his weight (figuratively and literally). But I will go back in 2008....still trying to get that partner thing right too.
Lessons learned are normally from failures and not successes. Go out and hit as many places as you can to build up your skills, mountain sense and experiences.
Good luck, and thx for all the great thread inputs and sagas
(This post was edited by laurelja on Apr 5, 2007, 4:33 PM)
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dharmatreez
Apr 5, 2007, 3:56 PM
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"come back alive, come back friends, get to the top - in that order"
not sure who said it, i've heard it for awhile
jae
(This post was edited by dharmatreez on Apr 5, 2007, 3:57 PM)
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reg
Apr 5, 2007, 4:10 PM
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dakind50 wrote: I think the end goal is to do the trip without a service, prehaps using services on the other trips as part of the training. White Mountains is a must do I am thinking. Being group/self reliant is one of the main goals, prehaps more then even getting to the summit. I am that way in the woods no problem right now, doing it in snow is much different I am thinking.. thanks chris
oh man - great goal - good luck and study hard - realize yer talkin 20320 feet - dangerous weather, dangerous altitude -dangerous mountain. this sentence made my jaw drop:" I am that way in the woods no problem right now, doing it in snow is much different I am thinking.." ummm....yeah - being self reliant on the AT @ 1000' ain't even on the same side of the universe! don't get me wrong - you can do it.....i'll wait to see how your demeaner changes by reading future posts - after you've spent a few nights on CO 14r's in winter. keep us informed
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drzaous
Apr 6, 2007, 2:37 AM
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"NEWBIE POST: Denali in summer of '09"
unguided....
says it all...
NOT GOOD.
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chugach001
Apr 19, 2007, 6:39 PM
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Hey, good luck to you. I climbed Denali and have lived and trained in Virginia. Sure, everything is possible.
I'll tell you quickly about my climb but don't think i am bragging, as I will explain, my good times were paid for in training.
My wife and I climbed Denali unguided and partied all the way up and back. We had a blast, did lots of exploring above 17k' and got home quickly.
But, in the years leading up to that we had been living in AK, had done several remote expeditions, got slaughtered in a big storm and spent 8 days in an emergency snowcave, voluntarilly bivied at -52f once, froze on several cliffside forced bivies, competed in ultras, taught avy courses, spent 6 years active in mountain rescue, climbed technical routes at a high level, etc, etc. In fact, I had returned from Denali in worse shape than when I left because we had taken training so seriously.
We were ready for Denali and "punched through" our objective. You can go up there fully prepared for ideal conditions and get lucky or you can die. If you are ready for the worst, you'll never be surprised. My strong belief is that you should train beyond excellence and always be able to punch through your target - holding reserves for when God does come to whip your ass.
My suggestion is to disregard your time frames and break the mountain down in parts. Snow, cold, altitude, duration, weather, survival, crevasse, self-rescue, climbing experience, etc. Then go when you have mastered the elements AND can put them together for real.
Can you do deep knee bends for 10 hours on a small ledge to keep from freezing to death? Can you shovel for 40 hours straight if needed? Can you build an emergency snowcave in the dark? Have you been to altitude? Do you know what long term exposure to real cold is really like? Can you perform crevasse rescue in a dark storm? You'll never know until you do.
And then you have your judgement call. It is only Denali and not K2. You don't have to be ninja caliber in every facet, so what corners are you willing to cut in your experience and what level of risk are you willing to take? It's all your call, i am simply relaying my experiences. If you want to have a guaranteed beach party on Denali, follow my training background. If you want a little more risk in your life, train less and bite off more.
Now for Virginia. Dude, the odds are against you. Look at the list above and think what you can pull off in Virginia with a baby and a needy wife. It can be done and I defied the odds while living in New Orleans during our baby years. It will take single minded focus and the ability to suffer.
I agree with others as to sub-peaks that will serve as benchmarks. Bivy for a couple days on Washington in winter and worry about survival. Safe haven is mighty close there compared to Denali. Go climb Adams in winter and learn how to deal with snow. Rainier in summer and spend a few nights hauling your partner out of crevases for training. (ps - it is nearly impossible to pull an injured partner out of a crevasse alone, even with an excellent 6:1 system and years of experience).
Pile up the experience and always be willing to bite off a little more the next time out. In the end you may not climb Denali but you will have had a lot of fun trying.
All the best,
Jeff
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chugach001
Apr 22, 2007, 1:39 PM
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And hook up with these folks...
http://www.patc.net/chapters/mtn_sect/
It is an active group in the DC area which is getting more and more into mountaineering over the last couple years. I think there are a lot of members in a similar situation and going after moderate peaks unguided or more significant peaks guided. Also some very tenured climbers who are happy to mentor. You can click on the "uprope newsletter" and read some of the past issues. You can also get on the listserve and go to meetings, they always seem to have something going on.
All the best,
Jeff
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azmtbkr81
May 7, 2007, 8:39 PM
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Chris-
I am in much the same boat as you are man, and I hope that some of these previous posts have not discouraged you.
A few years ago I spent a summer in Alaska and hired a guide to take me out ice climbing, even though it was a simple day of toprope climbing the alpine bug bit me hard. Since then I've been determined to climb Denali and someday climb in the Himalaya or Karakoram. Luckly my brother is a big wall climber so he has emphasized to the importance of proper training, technique, and experience in the mountains.
Last summer I hired the same guide to teach me the fundamentals of mountaineering. I spent 10 days learning the basics and peak bagging in the Chugach and had the time of my life. I learned crevasse rescue, running belays, how to protect yourself on ice and steep snow, etc. I could write pages about the experience but here are the major lessons I've come away with:
-KNOW YOUR PARTNER! Along with the guide an apprentice guide came along for free to cement her mountaineering skills. During a day of crevasse rescue drills I got a chance to jump into a large crevasse to test her arresting and hauling technique. Needless to say she wasn't able to arrest my fall and she was dragged a long distance over rocky ice. A deadman anchor was set up and caught my fall but had that not been there I would have fallen 40 feet and probably broken both of my legs on an ice ledge. She also wasn't strong enough to haul me out using a Z drag pulley system. I ended up getting lowered to the bottom of the crevasse and climbed my way out, which was a lot of fun but would have done me no good had it been a real situation and my legs were broken or I was unconscious.
-DONT UNDERESTIMATE THE COLD I have to preface this with the fact that I am from Phoenix and my body is acclimatized to 110 degrees, not 10. I had plenty of brand new, warm clothing and a down bag rated to zero degrees. Even with my long underwear, balaclava, wool socks and a silk sleaping bag liner I went into the beginning stages of hypothermia twice during the night when the temperature dipped down into the teens and single digits. Now unless you enjoy sharing a mummy bag with another man who hasn't showered for a week this is not very fun. When you spend more than a few days on a glacier you have to carefully monitor your calorie intake and every strenuous climb or hike that you take has to be carefully measured against your existing energy reserves. It is a very delicate balance and not one most people in our fast food society are used to having to pay attention to.
-CLIMBING ON STEEP SNOW IS SCARY Take the scariest lead you've ever done on rock and multiply that by 10, that’s what it feels like to SECOND on steep snow on an exposed face when all you can see are clouds a 1000 feet below you.
Having come away from this trip you might think I would be discouraged but the opposite is true, there is nothing comparable to mountaineering, it truly is the ultimate test of your physical and mental abilities. Right now I am planning to climb the north ridge of Mt. Baker in July with Mountain Madness. I'm having trouble finding mountaineering partners in Phoenix and I know it would take a lot for me to trust one of them in the mountains sight unseen. I'm certain I'd like to climb Denali in the next few years, but in order to accomplish that I've come to the realization that I need to move somewhere where I can go on alipine and mountaineering trips more than once a year. Right now I'm looking at Seattle, Denver, or possibly Anchorage.
My advice to you is to sign up for a class, I know Mountain Madness and NOLS offer them in the Cascades and the Wind River range, if you'd like I can give you the name of the guide I went with in Alaska, he is a great guy and I trust him completely. Unless you are good friends with Steve House or Ed Viesturs there is no shame in hiring guides especially when you are starting out . If you come back from the class as excited as I was you'll have the desire to commit more time, energy, and money to becoming a stud in the mountains. You might well be able to climb Denali in two years with only having gone on a few mountaineering trips, people do it all the time. For me knowing that when the crap hits the fan I'll have the confidence to pull myself out of a bind instead of having a guide drag my sorry ass down the mountain would make it a much more enjoyable experience. I think climbing Denali is an excellent goal and I wish you the best of luck!
-John
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- Thanks guys 
