|
atg200
Apr 2, 2007, 9:43 PM
Post #26 of 47
(3037 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317
|
Do the Mexican volcanos in 2 years. Its a fun adventure, fairly safe and forgiving, and it'll get you up to nearly 19K. If you can get a bunch of time logged in the cascades before then, go to Ecuador instead, but you do not want to be on the Ecuador volcanos without having your glacier travel and crevasse rescue skills together.
|
|
|
|
|
kixx
Apr 2, 2007, 10:31 PM
Post #27 of 47
(3025 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 23, 2005
Posts: 178
|
Sorry for hijacking your thread dakind50... but i hope your getting something out of it.
If you're looking for something in the lower 48 then Rainier is the grandaddy. i would set my sights on the Ingraham Direct route in May before labor day if you want to beat the crowds. That route does open up with crevasses as the season progresses into spring, so if you go any later you'll need to think about the Disappointment Cleaver Route. i would anticipate doing both so you are ready, study up on the photos so you know both routes as well as possible. big mountain navigation requires an astute memory of how everything is situated and if you get too far off route (which is easy to do when the mountain is not crowded) you need to abandon your summit try for that day and try again another.
Anything on Rainier requires extensive knowledge and practice with crevasse rescue. You could get up there and take a crevasse course (after practicing a ton on the home crags) and it would be good to see the methods in place on a real glacier. Then you could continue with the climb un-guided.
If you ever want to try some East Coast mountaineering, drop me a line. There is a lot to do locally that most people never try.
|
|
|
|
|
jjanowia
Apr 2, 2007, 10:48 PM
Post #28 of 47
(3015 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 126
|
So it sounds like you're interested in a goal that requires well honed technical and physical abilities. Certainly mountaineering goals such as Denali require tons of both.
Have you considered an alternate big goal such as hiking the Appalachian Trail? Certainly less technical than mountaineering, but definitely demanding (but in different ways). A similarly high degree of conditioning, both mentally and physically, would be necessary to successfully complete a thru-hike.
That said, if you're going to be busy being a father, the time commitment of dialing in a finely tuned ultralight camping system would be much less than the time commitment involved in learning technical mountaineering skills.
I'm just throwing this out there since you were soliciting suggestions. Lest you think that this is not an ambitious/hardcore goal, consider that the success rate is less than 25% annually, and it's not like tons of people are succeeding each year:
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/...s_and_Statistics.htm
Anyway, I know this doesn't sound as glamorous as summitting a huge peak, but it is definitely a BAMF accomplishment.
|
|
|
|
|
chriss
Apr 3, 2007, 1:05 AM
Post #29 of 47
(3002 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2004
Posts: 92
|
Kixx,
Let me get this straight.
You paid for their trip to Alaska and they bailed on you?
They posted here that they were going to bail on you but didn't tell you until they got to Alaska?
That is just wrong. Regardless of your plans or abilities to complete the plan.
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Apr 3, 2007, 1:50 AM
Post #30 of 47
(2994 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
chriss wrote: Kixx, Let me get this straight. You paid for their trip to Alaska and they bailed on you? They posted here that they were going to bail on you but didn't tell you until they got to Alaska? That is just wrong. Regardless of your plans or abilities to complete the plan.
Note to self, purchase one-way tickets for the ride up there. Afterall, not everyone comes home from that mountain.
|
|
|
|
|
divnamite
Apr 3, 2007, 2:35 AM
Post #31 of 47
(2988 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 20, 2007
Posts: 114
|
It's sad that Kixx's dream is now delayed because of the assholes. I think that just prove another reason why you use guides. I'm sure Kixx planned it out as best as he could've, but shit like this can ruin two years of training, countless hours of research, not to mention money on the flights.
|
|
|
|
|
wanderlustmd
Apr 3, 2007, 12:58 PM
Post #32 of 47
(2975 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 24, 2006
Posts: 8150
|
atg200 wrote: why wouldn't you want to go outside the US to climb? mexico and ecuador are going to be the same if not cheaper in cost to climbing in the cascades if you aren't a local. whitney will do nothing to prepare you for denali. i think it is a very good idea to go to ecuador and do a climb that is along the lines of summit day on denali without having to worry about the big expedition part of the trip. there just isn't any substitute for going to high altitudes other than prior experience. i can go to 14K anytime without much trouble, 17K i feel it, and 20K gets hard.
I second this. I went to Ecuador in 02 after two solid seasons hiking, camping, and ice climbing in the Whites. Since I was prepared, the next logical step was to try altitude, and it was a great time! Cotopaxi and Cayembe are great mountains with a variety of routes, and coniditions can be quite mild weather-wise compared to Alaska. There are also many smaller foothills to warm up on. Also, the proximity of many peaks to Quito means comfortable rest/recovery opportunities post or between climbs. Many hostels will lock gear up for you, so you don't have to haul a months worth of food around for 4-5 day climbs.
While you seem to understand the importance of adequate prep, rushing toward an objective sucks the fun out of it. Not to mention the obvious fact that it simply isn't a smart idea. I did that when I first started trad climbing; I wanted to do the Nose now, and eventually climbing itself sucked because I was so wrapped up in a goal. Enjoy the experience and buildup of tackling larger objectives over time. Denali isn't going anywhere.
|
|
|
|
|
mtselman
Apr 3, 2007, 2:48 PM
Post #33 of 47
(2960 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2002
Posts: 134
|
dakind50 wrote: Hello, I am new to moutaineering and have a few questions. My goal is to climb Denali when I turn 30. Which is in two years from now. I have done long hikes on the AT (I live in DC) and know how to camp/live outdoors for a spell without carrying my kitchen sink with me, but I want to move into greater challenges. ......... Reading things for me (accounts of blah blah blah, tips on this or that) in books make it seem easy or do able. Thus I asked questions from folks here to get a 'real' account of what should be done or how hard something is. I can't really leave the country for the next two years because .... So its just weekend/long weekend things until then. Bascially I want to enter my 30's much better then I did my 20's. Which was something at 20 I didn't think would happen or as my thinking went, how could I possibly be in better shape later in life ;-0 What is a good goal then for 2 years out? Something certainly hard but something I can learn the skills to do before hand then do unguided. ........
First thing I would like to ask you (and you should ask yourself) is why Denali? You admit being very new to mountaineering and aside from a few high hills and backpacking trips you have not done much. I was at that point sometime ago, everyone has to start from zero. But setting up Denali as a fixed goal sounds more like your ego is pushing you. I think the right question for you to ask others and yourself would be "how do I become a better mountaineer?". That is the only worthy goal - to become better, not to "tick off" some climbs be it Everest, Denali or 5.15. As you start climbing in the mountains you will discover what styles of climbing you like more - long snow slogs at high altitude or technical routes on lower peaks, expedition style climbs or quick ascents, mixed or ice or rock; walls or ridges. You will know better if you are willing to suffer cold and pain or you prefer more "comfy" but no less beautiful routes. Then, in two years of climbing you will be able to say - "yes, I became a better mountaineer, a safer and more proficient climber than I was before". Or, maybe you'll say "forget it, I tried this mountaineering thing and it just sucks - takes too much time, gets you cold, makes you suffer and it's too bloody dangerous, etc.."
At this point it seems like you only can sacrifice weekends to get some practice. If this is indeed the case, I would definitely rule out Denali. There are certain skills that you can only learn by being in the big mountains for extended time and that includes knowing your limits in all kinds of conditions, which you do not want to start finding out high up on Denali.
Start with a goal of becoming a better mountaineer and finding out if you really enjoy it. (the process).
Select your objectives gradually, make it a progression of successful climbs and interesting attempts. Learn the lessons. Then, in two years you'd be in a better position to evaluate your options for Denali, or maybe some other objective will captivate your dreams.
Just get better!
And as far as what to do meanwhile, "atq200" gave you a pretty good list of things to start with. Going through a good alpine school to start things up is very worthwhile. And get out and climb!
Just my $0.02
--Misha
|
|
|
|
|
dakind50
Apr 3, 2007, 3:06 PM
Post #34 of 47
(2951 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 29, 2006
Posts: 12
|
Thanks again for the advice. I feel over the next two years I can do a bunch of long weekends and one long trip a year 7-10 days. Denali seems like much more then what I have been reading online.
This is why you ask questions in a place like this, real people whom actually do it.
I do like winter camping. I went to college in buffalo, so I know about cold and did some camping at the top of some hills where we would do some bouldering when I was in school. Not the same I understand, but its a start.
I don't know about long hikes in cold at altitude, that seems like its one of those things you can only understand once your doing it.
I know I don't wanna do the AT or super months and months long hikes such as that. Nothing against it, its great for me for a week. But after the 8th day of a 10 day trip in VA on the AT about 3 years ago, I was bored. Also, I need something to replace rugby. I love it but after 30 my body will start to break down, it already is.
From what I have read, mountaineering is something that you actually can get better at, at an older age. Would you folks say that is true? Also how many of the folks that are trying to do denali actually have all the experience that has been mentioned here. They say about 4000 thousand try it every year and about half make it. Are there that many people into mountaineering?
thanks again. Mexico looks like the way to go for my 30th. Understanding the altitude is going to be big...
chris
|
|
|
|
|
atg200
Apr 3, 2007, 3:27 PM
Post #35 of 47
(2946 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317
|
Based on your last post, it sounds like you may not have the attention span for mountaineering. You need to plan on about a month for Denali - even a quick trip like Mexico takes at least two weeks to not rush getting acclimated.
You also need to be able to deal with spending about a third of that time doing very little - you can't do much when the weather is bad, and you need to build in a number of very low activity rest days for acclimating. Pushing it is a good way to get sick - I know that from experience after getting pulmonary edema on aconcagua a couple of years ago. I seem to spend about as much time being sick, bored, or tired on mountaineering trips as i actually do climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
dakind50
Apr 3, 2007, 3:32 PM
Post #36 of 47
(2943 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 29, 2006
Posts: 12
|
What I meant was, there was no view. It was just woods and woods and woods. Its not attention span its time for the next 2 years I don't have, thus perhaps doing a super long trek such as this may and perhaps should wait. I understand that for something like a denali or a large trip 3 weeks is the min. I think I just need to get out there at this point..
Is there any 'grandfather of books' books on the sport that are a must have?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Apr 4, 2007, 11:18 PM
Post #40 of 47
(2874 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
mtselman wrote: I think the right question for you to ask others and yourself would be "how do I become a better mountaineer?".
never bite off more than you're willing or able to chew and swallow, else you'll find yourself being force-fed a hefty dose of humility. The flip side is hubris, but we don't talk about people while they're still alive in such terms.
edit to add:
In reply to: But after the 8th day of a 10 day trip in VA on the AT about 3 years ago, I was bored.
bretter stay away from Denali then. Try 10 days stormed out in a tent... you're not even changing locations
(This post was edited by stymingersfink on Apr 4, 2007, 11:22 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
laurelja
Apr 5, 2007, 3:47 PM
Post #41 of 47
(2851 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2004
Posts: 31
|
This has been a great thread. All the information you get is right on and very valuable. Last year I went to do Denali unguided with a partner after 5 years of mountaineering (mostly on my own having built my experience, Peru, Orizaba, Ranier, Shasta Whitney, Mont Blanc, Ecuador).All successful summits in rather ideal conditions with a great partner. However I was greedy to go to Denali and could not wait to have my normal partner and unwisely hooked up with someone who misrepresented their expereiince and abilites (danger will robinson).
So my too sense:
First caveat...know your partners (or in my case your enemy)
Second...Training for Denali, well you need to be capable of constant movement at whatever pace you and your team set. I won't bore you with any tips
Third...I think that despite all my snow camping and mountaineering, there were few things I learned on the fly (remember I'm in Arizona, but do travel to cold places alot), and they are: knowing how to quickly build snow walls (and good/solid) ones. Having a division of labor for when you get into camp, and an agreed upon philosophy (some will want to immediately set up camp, some want to crash) about how you will proceed, in order to be the most efficient and quick.
Fourth...Be open to moods/lack of communication and keep your humor.
I did not summit...pulled the trigger when I realized this man was not capable of pulling his weight (figuratively and literally). But I will go back in 2008....still trying to get that partner thing right too.
Lessons learned are normally from failures and not successes. Go out and hit as many places as you can to build up your skills, mountain sense and experiences.
Good luck, and thx for all the great thread inputs and sagas
(This post was edited by laurelja on Apr 5, 2007, 4:33 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
dharmatreez
Apr 5, 2007, 3:56 PM
Post #42 of 47
(2847 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2005
Posts: 228
|
"come back alive, come back friends, get to the top - in that order"
not sure who said it, i've heard it for awhile
jae
(This post was edited by dharmatreez on Apr 5, 2007, 3:57 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
reg
Apr 5, 2007, 4:10 PM
Post #43 of 47
(2841 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
dakind50 wrote: I think the end goal is to do the trip without a service, prehaps using services on the other trips as part of the training. White Mountains is a must do I am thinking. Being group/self reliant is one of the main goals, prehaps more then even getting to the summit. I am that way in the woods no problem right now, doing it in snow is much different I am thinking.. thanks chris
oh man - great goal - good luck and study hard - realize yer talkin 20320 feet - dangerous weather, dangerous altitude -dangerous mountain. this sentence made my jaw drop:" I am that way in the woods no problem right now, doing it in snow is much different I am thinking.." ummm....yeah - being self reliant on the AT @ 1000' ain't even on the same side of the universe! don't get me wrong - you can do it.....i'll wait to see how your demeaner changes by reading future posts - after you've spent a few nights on CO 14r's in winter. keep us informed
|
|
|
|
|
drzaous
Apr 6, 2007, 2:37 AM
Post #44 of 47
(2809 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 27, 2005
Posts: 97
|
"NEWBIE POST: Denali in summer of '09"
unguided....
says it all...
NOT GOOD.
|
|
|
|
|
chugach001
Apr 19, 2007, 6:39 PM
Post #45 of 47
(2740 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 21, 2002
Posts: 311
|
Hey, good luck to you. I climbed Denali and have lived and trained in Virginia. Sure, everything is possible.
I'll tell you quickly about my climb but don't think i am bragging, as I will explain, my good times were paid for in training.
My wife and I climbed Denali unguided and partied all the way up and back. We had a blast, did lots of exploring above 17k' and got home quickly.
But, in the years leading up to that we had been living in AK, had done several remote expeditions, got slaughtered in a big storm and spent 8 days in an emergency snowcave, voluntarilly bivied at -52f once, froze on several cliffside forced bivies, competed in ultras, taught avy courses, spent 6 years active in mountain rescue, climbed technical routes at a high level, etc, etc. In fact, I had returned from Denali in worse shape than when I left because we had taken training so seriously.
We were ready for Denali and "punched through" our objective. You can go up there fully prepared for ideal conditions and get lucky or you can die. If you are ready for the worst, you'll never be surprised. My strong belief is that you should train beyond excellence and always be able to punch through your target - holding reserves for when God does come to whip your ass.
My suggestion is to disregard your time frames and break the mountain down in parts. Snow, cold, altitude, duration, weather, survival, crevasse, self-rescue, climbing experience, etc. Then go when you have mastered the elements AND can put them together for real.
Can you do deep knee bends for 10 hours on a small ledge to keep from freezing to death? Can you shovel for 40 hours straight if needed? Can you build an emergency snowcave in the dark? Have you been to altitude? Do you know what long term exposure to real cold is really like? Can you perform crevasse rescue in a dark storm? You'll never know until you do.
And then you have your judgement call. It is only Denali and not K2. You don't have to be ninja caliber in every facet, so what corners are you willing to cut in your experience and what level of risk are you willing to take? It's all your call, i am simply relaying my experiences. If you want to have a guaranteed beach party on Denali, follow my training background. If you want a little more risk in your life, train less and bite off more.
Now for Virginia. Dude, the odds are against you. Look at the list above and think what you can pull off in Virginia with a baby and a needy wife. It can be done and I defied the odds while living in New Orleans during our baby years. It will take single minded focus and the ability to suffer.
I agree with others as to sub-peaks that will serve as benchmarks. Bivy for a couple days on Washington in winter and worry about survival. Safe haven is mighty close there compared to Denali. Go climb Adams in winter and learn how to deal with snow. Rainier in summer and spend a few nights hauling your partner out of crevases for training. (ps - it is nearly impossible to pull an injured partner out of a crevasse alone, even with an excellent 6:1 system and years of experience).
Pile up the experience and always be willing to bite off a little more the next time out. In the end you may not climb Denali but you will have had a lot of fun trying.
All the best,
Jeff
|
|
|
|
|
chugach001
Apr 22, 2007, 1:39 PM
Post #46 of 47
(2683 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 21, 2002
Posts: 311
|
And hook up with these folks...
http://www.patc.net/chapters/mtn_sect/
It is an active group in the DC area which is getting more and more into mountaineering over the last couple years. I think there are a lot of members in a similar situation and going after moderate peaks unguided or more significant peaks guided. Also some very tenured climbers who are happy to mentor. You can click on the "uprope newsletter" and read some of the past issues. You can also get on the listserve and go to meetings, they always seem to have something going on.
All the best,
Jeff
|
|
|
|
|
azmtbkr81
May 7, 2007, 8:39 PM
Post #47 of 47
(2556 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 4, 2006
Posts: 3
|
Chris-
I am in much the same boat as you are man, and I hope that some of these previous posts have not discouraged you.
A few years ago I spent a summer in Alaska and hired a guide to take me out ice climbing, even though it was a simple day of toprope climbing the alpine bug bit me hard. Since then I've been determined to climb Denali and someday climb in the Himalaya or Karakoram. Luckly my brother is a big wall climber so he has emphasized to the importance of proper training, technique, and experience in the mountains.
Last summer I hired the same guide to teach me the fundamentals of mountaineering. I spent 10 days learning the basics and peak bagging in the Chugach and had the time of my life. I learned crevasse rescue, running belays, how to protect yourself on ice and steep snow, etc. I could write pages about the experience but here are the major lessons I've come away with:
-KNOW YOUR PARTNER! Along with the guide an apprentice guide came along for free to cement her mountaineering skills. During a day of crevasse rescue drills I got a chance to jump into a large crevasse to test her arresting and hauling technique. Needless to say she wasn't able to arrest my fall and she was dragged a long distance over rocky ice. A deadman anchor was set up and caught my fall but had that not been there I would have fallen 40 feet and probably broken both of my legs on an ice ledge. She also wasn't strong enough to haul me out using a Z drag pulley system. I ended up getting lowered to the bottom of the crevasse and climbed my way out, which was a lot of fun but would have done me no good had it been a real situation and my legs were broken or I was unconscious.
-DONT UNDERESTIMATE THE COLD I have to preface this with the fact that I am from Phoenix and my body is acclimatized to 110 degrees, not 10. I had plenty of brand new, warm clothing and a down bag rated to zero degrees. Even with my long underwear, balaclava, wool socks and a silk sleaping bag liner I went into the beginning stages of hypothermia twice during the night when the temperature dipped down into the teens and single digits. Now unless you enjoy sharing a mummy bag with another man who hasn't showered for a week this is not very fun. When you spend more than a few days on a glacier you have to carefully monitor your calorie intake and every strenuous climb or hike that you take has to be carefully measured against your existing energy reserves. It is a very delicate balance and not one most people in our fast food society are used to having to pay attention to.
-CLIMBING ON STEEP SNOW IS SCARY Take the scariest lead you've ever done on rock and multiply that by 10, that’s what it feels like to SECOND on steep snow on an exposed face when all you can see are clouds a 1000 feet below you.
Having come away from this trip you might think I would be discouraged but the opposite is true, there is nothing comparable to mountaineering, it truly is the ultimate test of your physical and mental abilities. Right now I am planning to climb the north ridge of Mt. Baker in July with Mountain Madness. I'm having trouble finding mountaineering partners in Phoenix and I know it would take a lot for me to trust one of them in the mountains sight unseen. I'm certain I'd like to climb Denali in the next few years, but in order to accomplish that I've come to the realization that I need to move somewhere where I can go on alipine and mountaineering trips more than once a year. Right now I'm looking at Seattle, Denver, or possibly Anchorage.
My advice to you is to sign up for a class, I know Mountain Madness and NOLS offer them in the Cascades and the Wind River range, if you'd like I can give you the name of the guide I went with in Alaska, he is a great guy and I trust him completely. Unless you are good friends with Steve House or Ed Viesturs there is no shame in hiring guides especially when you are starting out . If you come back from the class as excited as I was you'll have the desire to commit more time, energy, and money to becoming a stud in the mountains. You might well be able to climb Denali in two years with only having gone on a few mountaineering trips, people do it all the time. For me knowing that when the crap hits the fan I'll have the confidence to pull myself out of a bind instead of having a guide drag my sorry ass down the mountain would make it a much more enjoyable experience. I think climbing Denali is an excellent goal and I wish you the best of luck!
-John
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
- Thanks guys 
